villiers210 Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Unbelievable arrogance. And don't try to drag Stoke into this... The purpose of the National League is to train riders for the Premier League and Elite League, not for other National League teams. No wonder British Speedway is an international backwater. We need to get our superstars of the future into the top leagues. All the best Rob i would agree - but only when they are ready. And I know I see the NL differently to some people, but I don't see it as a training league. Things have moved on. The training league is the amateur leagues. I am as proud as anyone when riders from the NL like Craig Cook, Richie etc. progress enough to be ble to move up o PL full time. But, at the same time, how many riders like Lee Smart have been lost to the sport because they fall somewhere between the 2 leagues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montie Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 i would agree - but only when they are ready. And I know I see the NL differently to some people, but I don't see it as a training league. Things have moved on. The training league is the amateur leagues. I am as proud as anyone when riders from the NL like Craig Cook, Richie etc. progress enough to be ble to move up o PL full time. But, at the same time, how many riders like Lee Smart have been lost to the sport because they fall somewhere between the 2 leagues. Although good points,the National league always was a league to start off in and hopefully move up to better things,now,and lets face facts,its ruled by teams who have dropped out the PL or Dudley who i thought were using it to progress,and progress they seemed to have, but dispite alot of talk havnt moved up to the PL, what is happening now is the double up clubs and Buxton cant match the stand alones,so are folding.......soon the stand alones wont have anyone to play with,you have lost 3 teams in three years now If the change that has happened is good or bad remains to be seen,but they are the facts and i get the idea that the standalone teams,as good as they are are only papering over that cracks and stciking there heads in the sand and kidding themselves that all is ok......when clearly it isnt Unless something is done the NL will fail, as the league and speedway as a whole needs the likes of Scunny,Buxton and and other double up clubs who have dropped out 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duffyscouse Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Sad indeed, surely those doing the 'tapping' must shoulder some of the responsibility - no wonder Scunny take stock and wonder if it's worth it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguetrader Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 i would agree - but only when they are ready. And I know I see the NL differently to some people, but I don't see it as a training league. Things have moved on. The training league is the amateur leagues. I am as proud as anyone when riders from the NL like Craig Cook, Richie etc. progress enough to be ble to move up o PL full time. But, at the same time, how many riders like Lee Smart have been lost to the sport because they fall somewhere between the 2 leagues. This is the crux of the problem. The National league is the British Development League and is completely a training league. It is certain clubs that have hijacked the league and changed its direction to the detriment of up and coming British riders. This misconception that the amateur league is the training league displays an arrogant misplaced understanding of the development of riders. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villiers210 Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 (edited) This is the crux of the problem. The National league is the British Development League and is completely a training league. It is certain clubs that have hijacked the league and changed its direction to the detriment of up and coming British riders. This misconception that the amateur league is the training league displays an arrogant misplaced understanding of the development of riders. Rather, the misconception that the NL is a training league shows your incapacity to accept change. Like has been said before, who is going to pay £10-£12 of their hard earned cash to watch riders training? I'm sure there would be a few, but not enough to sustain a league. The fact that it is completely a training league is your perception and you are entitled to it. I happen to see it differently, and I make no apology that my view differs to yours. The fact that you see your view as gospel shows that it is you who displays the arrogance here. Edited November 23, 2012 by villiers210 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostylion Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 alot depends on what u call a training league...my thoughts are couple of rookies at reserve plus the rest....no riders like Lambert,garrity,Roynan etc..these guys have been there and done it and now need to push on....not take things easy in the nl...max of one doubler upper per team to..so many time last year team wer incomplete...there should be full teams in the nl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roguetrader Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Rather, the misconception that the NL is a training league shows your incapacity to accept change. Like has been said before, who is going to pay £10-£12 of their hard earned cash to watch riders training? I'm sure there would be a few, but not enough to sustain a league. The fact that it is completely a training league is your perception and you are entitled to it. I happen to see it differently, and I make no apology that my view differs to yours. The fact that you see your view as gospel shows that it is you who displays the arrogance here. Ah, you edit your arrogant reply which does not wash. How long have you been following National League speedway? The league flourished as a training league for years producing riders such as Josh Auty, Tai Woffiden, Lewis Bridger Joe Haines etc etc. And believe it or not the paying public attended in abundance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villiers210 Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Ah, you edit your arrogant reply which does not wash. How long have you been following National League speedway? The league flourished as a training league for years producing riders such as Josh Auty, Tai Woffiden, Lewis Bridger Joe Haines etc etc. And believe it or not the paying public attended in abundance. Firstly, why does my edit not wash? Secondly, why and when did the crowds stop attending in their abundance? In answer to your question, I have been watching NL racing for 3 years, nowhere near as long as I have supported speedway in general I grant you, but one thing I do know, NL crowds were not attending in abundance 3 years ago, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMungo Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Rather, the misconception that the NL is a training league shows your incapacity to accept change. Like has been said before, who is going to pay £10-£12 of their hard earned cash to watch riders training? I'm sure there would be a few, but not enough to sustain a league. Sorry to butt in into your argument! That paragraph just reminded me of something. Denmark actually don't charge spectators to come and watch their 2nd and 3rd division matches. At all. You can just turn up, no parking fee, no entrance fee, nothing. It's basically put on as training in a meeting format with teams, etc. But good luck in trying to get a programme!! Whilst their third division is a complete training league (akin to the Conference League when it first began), their 2nd league is somewhere between our PL and NL (and sometimes features EL riders), so is hardly a poor standard. Maybe the time has come for a 4th league. A pure development league with no wages and hopefully limited expenses. Because that is not what the National League is anymore. For right or for wrong, it has developed into the 3rd division, IMO. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted November 23, 2012 Report Share Posted November 23, 2012 Apologies, I have obviously misunderstood the statement made today. I read it to mean the club would only run in the PL. Great news that the club will continue to run in the amateur league and stage some NL standard meetings. Noit sure what you mean when you refer to the "amateur league"..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
June Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 e Rather, the misconception that the NL is a training league shows your incapacity to accept change. Like has been said before, who is going to pay £10-£12 of their hard earned cash to watch riders training? I'm sure there would be a few, but not enough to sustain a league. The fact that it is completely a training league is your perception and you are entitled to it. I happen to see it differently, and I make no apology that my view differs to yours. The fact that you see your view as gospel shows that it is you who displays the arrogance here. Have you ever been to a AM meeting at Scunny. The 500cc open races are of riders who can defo race as good a race as you'd see in a NL meeting. Some bloody good riders take part and the racing is very good. (Though the support riders section are riders not quite up to the standard of NL).When riders race in the AM in the open section they are sometimes competing against riders from N/L and P/L testing bikes or coming back after injury or even foreigners show- casing themselves. Most are ready for N/L and looking for team places. The british youngsters need the NL to get a foot on the ladder and to get started in a league. I pay or rather did pay the going rate at Scunny to watch N/L and thoroughly enjoyed it. Get your head around the fact that these youngsters often start a very early age and come up through ranks and deserve a chance in our leagues. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 Ah, you edit your arrogant reply which does not wash. How long have you been following National League speedway? The league flourished as a training league for years producing riders such as Josh Auty, Tai Woffiden, Lewis Bridger Joe Haines etc etc. And believe it or not the paying public attended in abundance. And it still is and does or did you not attend NL speedway matches last season to watch the likes of Bates, Ellis, Stoneman, Greenwood, Clegg, Blacklock, Coles, Rose, Verge and others ride ? To my knowledge, there were as many 3.00 starters in the NL last season than in any previous season. Perry, Nielsen, Birks, the Worrall brothers, Blackbird and others have all gone on to ride PL in the last two seasons. More would have done but for the PL & EL's determination on occasion to persevere with foreigners while booting out British youngsters after a few poor scores. A pure development league with no wages and hopefully limited expenses. Because that is not what the National League is anymore. For right or for wrong, it has developed into the 3rd division, IMO. I'd agree it is a third division but it is still a stepping stone to higher things between amateur meetings and the PL, so its existence is both valid and credible. Sadly, what we have is a Scunthorpe point of view that has been expressed before and one that is both arrogant and selfish, smacking of 'play our way or we will not play at all'. The NL might be a development league to them, but to the likes of Mildenhall, Dudley, Stoke and Isle of Wight it is their bread and butter. Talk of 36 point limits and training leagues would almost certainly send those clubs to the wall, because people will not pay to watch something that it is little above an amateur meeting. What is especially galling is that they whine on about win at all cost teams and paying over the odds for riders. Mildenhall and Dudley were strong this season, but the Scunthorpe sides of 2006 & 2007 that were packed with PL riders would have torn them apart and there's no doubt that those riders were paid over basic NL pay too. Basically its a case of don't do as I did, do as I say. While I fully accept that each club has to protect its own interests when you are the member of a league that cannot be completely at the expense of all the others. The continuing existence of the NL is about compromise (and, in truth, it always has been). Its about accepting that the stand alone clubs need to put on a decent show for their paying spectators and that the double up clubs need to keep costs down so that their valued development role (which, lets face it, is more about creating assets for those clubs than the development of British youngsters as a whole) might continue. I do not see any reason why such a compromise might not be agreed if the sort of attitude we have seen in some of the posts on this thread is dropped. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 (edited) What is especially galling is that they whine on about win at all cost teams and paying over the odds for riders. Mildenhall and Dudley were strong this season, but the Scunthorpe sides of 2006 & 2007 that were packed with PL riders would have torn them apart and there's no doubt that those riders were paid over basic NL pay too. Basically its a case of don't do as I did, do as I say. HT, for someone so knowledgement about the sport, you do talk complete rot at times. Oxford were still about in 2007, so I do know various bits from behind the scenes at that time. Scunny were not the big payers; instead it was a south-west based team. The Cheetahs closed for four weeks during the summer, and when we re-opened, we found Ben Hopwood had been poached by this south-western team, who paid him double the wages (and Oxford themselves were not paying minimum wages). Not that I have any problem with Ben; I had a chat with his dad later that season and I told him I could completely understand his and Ben's position because it was an offer they simply couldn't afford to turn down. Scunny's powerful team for 2006 and 2007 was eventually full of PL riders, but it didn't start that way. They took on Josh Auty, Tai Woffinden and Joe Haines from scratch, Andrew Tully came from the Dale Devils after that team folded, etc. I can't remember the Scorpions going around other teams and pinching their riders - correct me if I'm wrong. At one point, Allen Trump wanted to put something in the Speedway Star berating Scunny after a Bronze Helmet challenge saw Danny Betson ending up going solo in the race, but I persuaded him not to, telling him Scunny are "the good guys", having built up a very strong side, but having almost done it from scratch. As it was, we were already involved in a war of words with the south-west team (the south-west team got up to all sorts of tricks - they were "the bad guys") and we didn't need to likewise engage Scunny. Please don't try to rewrite history, I would expected more of you than that. All the best Rob Edited November 24, 2012 by lucifer sam 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bagpuss Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 The standalone clubs should not be able to go and choose from the pick of the riders developed by the second teams - there needs to be something put in place to prevent this from happening again. This is the key point for me. Can't blame the standalone clubs for wanting to build as strong a side as possible but there is no incentive for those clubs whose sole purpose is to develop their own if the current situation continues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 (edited) HT, for someone so knowledgement about the sport, you do talk complete rot at times. Oxford were still about in 2007, so I do know various bits from behind the scenes at that time. Scunny were not the big payers; instead it was a south-west based team. The Cheetahs closed for four weeks during the summer, and when we re-opened, we found Ben Hopwood had been poached by this south-western team, who paid him double the wages (and Oxford themselves were not paying minimum wages). Not that I have any problem with Ben; I had a chat with his dad later that season and I told him I could completely understand his and Ben's position because it was an offer they simply couldn't afford to turn down. Scunny's powerful team for 2006 and 2007 was eventually full of PL riders, but it didn't start that way. They took on Josh Auty, Tai Woffinden and Joe Haines from scratch, Andrew Tully came from the Dale Devils after that team folded, etc. I can't remember the Scorpions going around other teams and pinching their riders - correct me if I'm wrong. At one point, Allen Trump wanted to put something in the Speedway Star berating Scunny after a Bronze Helmet challenge saw Danny Betson ending up going solo in the race, but I persuaded him not to, telling him Scunny are "the good guys", having built up a very strong side, but having almost done it from scratch. As it was, we were already involved in a war of words with the south-west team (the south-west team got up to all sorts of tricks - they were "the bad guys") and we didn't need to likewise engage Scunny. Please don't try to rewrite history, I would expected more of you than that. All the best Rob I don't believe I actually said that Scunny were big payers. What they did was pay over standard NL rates, something they now object violently to other clubs doing. Of the Mildenhall team this season, Heeps, Bates, Jacobs & Stoneman have only ever ridden for Mildenhall. Blackbird has only ridden a handful of matches for King's Lynn and Nielsen just one season at Scunny. Only Halsey has ever significantly ridden elsewhere. Of the Dudley side, Greenwood & Perry have only ever ridden for Dudley. Ritchings and Morris have had one season elsewhere. White-Williams, Roynon & Bekker have had significant experience with other clubs. The Scunny side of 2006 included Wayne Carter who (had ridden for years -far more than anyone in any of the above teams) Andy Tully & Benji Compton (both of whom had had three seasons at other clubs) Richie Dennis (who had 2) and Byron Bekker (one). In fact, its probably fair to say that Woffinden was the only unknown, Auty having been the British U15 champion. From those comparisons, thre Mildenhall side of 2012 is definitely more home grown than that of the Scunthorpe one of 2006 and if the Dudley one of 2012 is less so, that is only marginally the case. In 2007, the starting average of the team (Dennis, Bekker, Auty, Compton, Woffinden, Richardson, Haines) was well over 50 points - way, way higher than anything Dudley put out this year and way, way higher than any other club. Even taking into account Bournemouth back in 2009, its by far the strongest team ever seen at third tier level and one that was assembled to destroy the rest of the league. Perhaps the most important point on that is that when riders got injured Scunthorpe simply went out and drafted in another PL one (Paul Cooper, James Cockle). Edited November 24, 2012 by Halifaxtiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SarahLapworth Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 I don't believe I actually said that Scunny were big payers. What they did was pay over standard NL rates, something they now object violently to other clubs doing. Of the Mildenhall team this season, Heeps, Bates, Jacobs & Stoneman have only ever ridden for Mildenhall. Blackbird has only ridden a handful of matches for King's Lynn and Nielsen just one season at Scunny. Only Halsey has ever significantly ridden elsewhere. Of the Dudley side, Greenwood & Perry have only ever ridden for Dudley. Ritchings and Morris have had one season elsewhere. White-Williams, Roynon & Bekker have had significant experience with other clubs. The Scunny side of 2006 included Wayne Carter who (had ridden for years -far more than anyone in any of the above teams) Andy Tully & Benji Compton (both of whom had had three seasons at other clubs) Richie Dennis (who had 2) and Byron Bekker (one). In fact, its probably fair to say that Woffinden was the only unknown, Auty having been the British U15 champion. From those comparisons, thre Mildenhall side of 2012 is definitely more home grown than that of the Scunthorpe one of 2006 and if the Dudley one of 2012 is less so, that is only marginally the case. In 2007, the starting average of the team (Dennis, Bekker, Auty, Compton, Woffinden, Richardson, Haines) was well over 50 points - way, way higher than anything Dudley put out this year and way, way higher than any other club. Even taking into account Bournemouth back in 2009, its by far the strongest team ever seen at third tier level and one that was assembled to destroy the rest of the league. Perhaps the most important point on that is that when riders got injured Scunthorpe simply went out and drafted in another PL one (Paul Cooper, James Cockle). Dan Greenwood has also raced for Newport Honets towards the back end of 2011 and I beleive he has also has a few rides for the Rye House Raiders in 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 Dan Greenwood has also raced for Newport Honets towards the back end of 2011 and I beleive he has also has a few rides for the Rye House Raiders in 2008 He did ride for Rye House - on 8 occasions (and 1 for Redcar). In using the above stats, I thought that only reasonably full seasons would count (some of the Scunny riders have ridden more than that stated - Benji Compton had ridden 2001-4, for example). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribbler Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 When did the points system come in for the NL? I'm sure the grading system was still in place. Auty - and the following year Jo Haines - may have been U15 champions but had (obviously) never ridden in a Leaugue and riding for a team is very different to riding as an individual. The use of Wayne Carter was that 'one older experienced rider'... who only rode in the Conference - not a 'double-upper'. Same old, same old. And it was the SW team that took the P out of the Conference with their use of two very experienced riders and paying way above the odds... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 HT, there's no doubt of the strength of the 2007 Scunthorpe Scorpions. However, they were not the biggest payers in the league, and the riders were not "poached" from other teams, as Ben Hopwood was from Oxford by a south-western team. The strength of the Scunny side merely took advantage of the low grades given to younger riders at that point. You're implying there's a big double standard here. If so, please could you name the rider who Scunthorpe pinched off another club in either 2006 or 2007. Thanks. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vog Posted November 24, 2012 Report Share Posted November 24, 2012 I can't help thinking that the NL (And CL before it) has always catered for both types of team. First CL meeting I watched was a double header at Stoke, to decide the CL title. If memory serves, Mildenhall were always regarded as the team who would sign anyone to win (And I remember them having Ben Howe on about an 11 point average, and Jon Armstrong on about a 10!) yet clubs still managed to produce riders (That day, I saw riders such as Rory Schlein, Ricky Ashworth, James Birkinshaw etc) What Scunthorpe fans need to remember is that there was an NL/CL producing riders before they came along, and there will be an NL/CL producing riders after they leave. That goes for any club at this level. Talent and determination will always shine through. The question is, do they want to be a part of that process? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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