lucifer sam Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 (edited) Where did those races take place though, I would hazard a guess Szcackiel's wins were all behind the iron curtain? I don't know why you've got an obsession on races behind the Iron Curtain being so difficult. The western riders may have been intimidated to begin with, but then Mauger winning in 1970 and the Brits winning the WTC in '71 in Poland altered the situation. By the time Szczakiel won in '73, the westerners already knew they could go to Poland and win. Szczakiel would have had very little "home" advantage at Katowice (he rode for Opole), but he simply proved to the best rider on the day. Remember again he didn't beat Mauger once that day... he did it twice. Almost all the big names of the day were in the '73 final, but Szczakiel went out and beat almost all of them. He was the best rider on that particular day. All the best Rob Edited December 5, 2012 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 (edited) I don't know why you've got an obsession on races behind the Iron Curtain being so difficult. The western riders may have been intimidated to begin with, but then Mauger winning in 1970 and the Brits winning the WTC in '71 in Poland altered the situation. By the time Szczakiel won in '73, the westerners already knew they could go to Poland and win. Szczakiel would have had very little "home" advantage at Katowice (he rode for Opole), but he simply proved to the best rider on the day. Remember again he didn't beat Mauger once that day... he did it twice. Almost all the big names of the day were in the '73 final, but Szczakiel went out and beat almost all of them. He was the best rider on that particular day. All the best Rob Indeed they did Rob, but racing in Poland was even up to the late 80s, a great leveller vetween the East and West. In 1970 in Wroclaw 2 poles on Rostrum, same in 1973 in Katowice, no rostrum 1976 (Plech was 5th) and 1 rostrum place in 1979. The 4 finals in Poland in the seventies had 5 of the 12 rostrum places occupied by Poles Out of the other 6 finals of that decade how many of the 18 rostrum places did the Poles occupy? I will give you a clue, it is less than 1 Edited December 5, 2012 by oldace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike.Butler Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 it is well known egon muller had the norden track prepared to his liking in 1983 and look at the result...so i certainly don't under-estimate the advantage the poles did have whilst riding at home back then...its all about familiarity..same apples these days..look at expectations of team gb riding at kng's lynn against when riding abroad... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearhead Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Within a few posts you have completely changed your view. Earlier you were adament that a substandard rider shouldn't be there on the strength of Nationality as it is unfair on genuine world class riders Now you think that is what sport should be about Make your mind up man In my option MJJ is also far more worthy than Woffy of that GP place but do find White Knight contradicts himself in a sense because in 1973 you had a one off Final with the unpredictability and excitement etc with a suprise winner which he applauds but then it was the exact race format that MJJ failed the quaify for the GPs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 In my option MJJ is also far more worthy than Woffy of that GP place but do find White Knight contradicts himself in a sense because in 1973 you had a one off Final with the unpredictability and excitement etc with a suprise winner which he applauds but then it was the exact race format that MJJ failed the quaify for the GPs But even worse is that in 1973 we had a winner who didn't even qualify but that was great Now one of Ians criticisms is the lack of qualifying into the GPs, although he has gone quiet on that one since it was shown to be nonsense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) So we shall hear no more from you about the playoffs next year WK. You've made your feelings quite clear regarding the subject of the best 'over a season' being worthy winners, or the best 'on the night'. Play Offs are wrong - everybody knows my views by now BWitcher - THATS why I have been quiet. I have NOT changed my views on that either. They are unfair. :) Within a few posts you have completely changed your view. Earlier you were adament that a substandard rider shouldn't be there on the strength of Nationality as it is unfair on genuine world class riders Now you think that is what sport should be about Make your mind up man I see no contradiction - Woofinden should NOT be in the GP end of, neither should MJJ (as I stated - I only used him as an example) in my book as neither qualified - but that is the way Speedway is these days. No the wonder Crowds are falling - Speedway is pushing credibility beyond belief. People ask WHY is Speedway failing? - well ridiculous Rules like selecting for the GP series on grounds of Nationality and not Qualification, Play Offs, Double Points, Jokers etc. DO NOT HELP as far as credibility goes. People, in general, are NOT mugs. They know when they are being ripped off. Some of us, like me at the moment, are prepared to put up with all the chicanary that goes on because we love to watch four Riders belting around a Track. The problem is a tremendous amount of people are put off the Sport because of the aforementioned stupid Rules. Granted in these times of austerity 'Cuts' the Sport is also feeling the backlash of the Financial times we are living through, that too will undoubtedly have a effect. This alone is bad enough without discouraging folk by contriving Results. Edited December 6, 2012 by The White Knight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Play Offs are wrong - everybody knows my views by now BWitcher - THATS why I have been quiet. I have NOT changed my views on that either. They are unfair. :) I see no contradiction - Woofinden should NOT be in the GP end of, neither should MJJ (as I stated - I only used him as an example) in my book as neither qualified - but that is the way Speedway is these days. No the wonder Crowds are falling - Speedway is pushing credibility beyond belief. People ask WHY is Speedway failing? - well ridiculous Rules like selecting for the GP series on grounds of Nationality and not Qualification, Play Offs, Double Points, Jokers etc. DO NOT HELP as far as credibility goes. People, in general, are NOT mugs. They know when they are being ripped off. Some of us, like me at the moment, are prepared to put up with all the chicanary that goes on because we love to watch four Riders belting around a Track. The problem is a tremendous amount of people are put off the Sport because of the aforementioned stupid Rules. Granted in these times of austerity 'Cuts' the Sport is also feeling the backlash of the Financial times we are living through, that too will undoubtedly have a effect. This alone is bad enough without discouraging folk by contriving Results. You see no contradiction? You have long argued that it was good for an underdog to win and you have in the past used 1973 as an example of unpredicability and the underdog coming out on top. Now I might be being silly but please explain the difference between Szackiels presence in the 1973 world final (what the sport is all about according to you) and Woffindens presence in the 2013 SGP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 You see no contradiction? You have long argued that it was good for an underdog to win and you have in the past used 1973 as an example of unpredicability and the underdog coming out on top. Now I might be being silly but please explain the difference between Szackiels presence in the 1973 world final (what the sport is all about according to you) and Woffindens presence in the 2013 SGP. Sczakiel QUALIFIED Woofinden didn't - GAME SET AND MATCH to me - I think. Oh - and Sczakiel was a worthy Champion ON THAT DAY!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) Sczakiel QUALIFIED Woofinden didn't - GAME SET AND MATCH to me - I think. Oh - and Sczakiel was a worthy Champion ON THAT DAY!!! Do you want to research that statement a little bit? Or to save you the trouble, no he didnt, along with the other 4 Poles in the final they were seeded to draw a crowd Not quite game set and match then!!!!! Edited December 6, 2012 by oldace 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Do you want to research that statement a little bit? Or to save you the trouble, no he didnt, along with the other 4 Poles in the final they were seeded to draw a crowd Not quite game set and match then!!!!! Thank you for pointing this out to me oldace - I did not know that. IF you are right about this - then Jerzy Sczakiel was undeservedly in the Final. The fact that, if as you say, he was allocated a place then, in no way invalidates my arguments about Qualification - if anything it re-enforces it. Selection is no way to get to a World Final/ Grand Prix Series. In BOTH cases - IT IS WRONG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Thank you for pointing this out to me oldace - I did not know that. IF you are right about this - then Jerzy Sczakiel was undeservedly in the Final. The fact that, if as you say, he was allocated a place then, in no way invalidates my arguments about Qualification - if anything it re-enforces it. Selection is no way to get to a World Final/ Grand Prix Series. In BOTH cases - IT IS WRONG. We have been trying to tell you this for years Ian. No one thinks the current system is 100% perfect but you have constantly gone on about the old way being fair when in truth the old way was about as unfair as it could be. Seeding to the final or later stages of qualifying was rife from the 50s through to the 80s and not always because of being world class but to draw a crowd. Possibly the worst one was Henny Kroeze in Amsterdam but the Poles regularly had substandard riders in their world finals Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 We have been trying to tell you this for years Ian. No one thinks the current system is 100% perfect but you have constantly gone on about the old way being fair when in truth the old way was about as unfair as it could be. Seeding to the final or later stages of qualifying was rife from the 50s through to the 80s and not always because of being world class but to draw a crowd. Possibly the worst one was Henny Kroeze in Amsterdam but the Poles regularly had substandard riders in their world finals I am feeling a bit disillusioned at the moment. Can I ask oldace - was Sczakiel selected/seeded direct to the Final? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 I am feeling a bit disillusioned at the moment. Can I ask oldace - was Sczakiel selected/seeded direct to the Final? Indeed he was Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 Indeed he was Ian :sad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 :sad: It wasn't uncommon Craven, Moore, Briggo (twice) were all seeded to world finals. The Poles actually had 6 seeds in 1970. Even us brits had 4 in 1978 although we organised qualifying rounds rather than hand pick the four. There are dozens more examples Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 (edited) It's questionable whether the Poles in 1973 were "seeded" or were "qualifiers". There was actually a qualifying criteria. Not an actual meeting, but based on results over a period. Szczakiel was fifth of the five Poles who qualified based on results. The Polish authorities weren't sure, and nearly replaced him, but in the end, stuck firm with the way they had worked out their five qualifiers... and the rest is history. Every final between 1965 and 1980 had riders from the home nation go directly to the final. The British Final was effectively a World Semi-Final in the years that Wembley held the final. All the best Rob Edited December 6, 2012 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 It's questionable whether the Poles in 1973 were "seeded" or were "qualifiers". It isn't questionable in the slightest, they were seeded There was actually a qualifying criteria. Not an actual meeting, but based on results over a period. Szczakiel was fifth of the five Poles who qualified based on results. The Polish authorities weren't sure, and nearly replaced him, but in the end, stuck firm with the way they had worked out their five qualifiers... and the rest is history. So just like I said then. There was no qualifying process, merely 5 hand picked riders based on previous results and nationality, rather like the 4 GP wild cards of today Every final between 1965 and 1980 had riders from the home nation go directly to the final. The British Final was effectively a World Semi-Final in the years that Wembley held the final. Even 1982 had a failsafe built into the qualifying to ensure an American was in the final although I cant remember the details. 84, 86,87 all had home riders guaranteed places in the final Of course every final did have seeds, it would have been financial suicide not to guarantee home representation. Ian, and others, have simply been trying to rewrite history with this perceived fair to all system that supposedly existed in the past All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Play Offs are wrong - everybody knows my views by now BWitcher - THATS why I have been quiet. I have NOT changed my views on that either. They are unfair. :) I see no contradiction - Woofinden should NOT be in the GP end of, neither should MJJ (as I stated - I only used him as an example) in my book as neither qualified - but that is the way Speedway is these days. No the wonder Crowds are falling - Speedway is pushing credibility beyond belief. People ask WHY is Speedway failing? - well ridiculous Rules like selecting for the GP series on grounds of Nationality and not Qualification, Play Offs, Double Points, Jokers etc. DO NOT HELP as far as credibility goes. People, in general, are NOT mugs. They know when they are being ripped off. Some of us, like me at the moment, are prepared to put up with all the chicanary that goes on because we love to watch four Riders belting around a Track. The problem is a tremendous amount of people are put off the Sport because of the aforementioned stupid Rules. Granted in these times of austerity 'Cuts' the Sport is also feeling the backlash of the Financial times we are living through, that too will undoubtedly have a effect. This alone is bad enough without discouraging folk by contriving Results. Ludicrous arguments again Ian, you really are tying yourself in knots. You're telling us that a 'one-off' final is better than a season long competition because of the unpredictability and 'that's what sport is all about'... while at the same time telling us that a 'one-off' final is completely unfair, ruins the credibility of the sport and drives fans away. Which is it? You either believe one or the other. THIS is the reality. You yearn for the old days, many do, that is no crime. Had in the old days there been a play off system in the league, and a GP for the World Championship.. and now the opposite, you would be arguing for the former. Those days are gone Ian, times have changed and moved on. The only way for the sport to move forward and to gain new fans is for a complete rebranding on the marketing side. Rule changes and how titles are won have very little at all to do with it. Explain to me the qualification system in Formula One each year or Nascar? I don't see them struggling for credibility or struggling for fans. The facts are, other sports have moved on... speedway to a large degree (especially in the UK) hasn't. At league level in particular its still the same old tired presentation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Know Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 STILL out of the country... will send one this week. Just don't tell everyone! Thanks for the stars Phil Ludicrous arguments again Ian, you really are tying yourself in knots. You're telling us that a 'one-off' final is better than a season long competition because of the unpredictability and 'that's what sport is all about'... while at the same time telling us that a 'one-off' final is completely unfair, ruins the credibility of the sport and drives fans away. Which is it? You either believe one or the other. THIS is the reality. You yearn for the old days, many do, that is no crime. Had in the old days there been a play off system in the league, and a GP for the World Championship.. and now the opposite, you would be arguing for the former. Those days are gone Ian, times have changed and moved on. The only way for the sport to move forward and to gain new fans is for a complete rebranding on the marketing side. Rule changes and how titles are won have very little at all to do with it. Explain to me the qualification system in Formula One each year or Nascar? I don't see them struggling for credibility or struggling for fans. The facts are, other sports have moved on... speedway to a large degree (especially in the UK) hasn't. At league level in particular its still the same old tired presentation. Very good post, There are no new fans round the corner and the sport is dieing without a doudt. BSI are worried about fan levels in the gp and the future. UK speedway as a pro sport will be dead within 10 years. The answer ? i dont know as i dont think there is one. Time has left speedway behind and i dont think it will ever catch on the the generations to come. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) The seeding often compounded the unfairness in that despite gifting places to a nations riders it often denied a fair qualifying process Take 1972, GB were given 5 places at Wembley that year but back then the Aussies and Kiwi's were under the GB banner so we had Mauger, Briggs, Nigel and Eric Boocock, Terry Betts, John Louis, Ray Wilson, John Boulger, Jim Mcmillan, a young Collins and Jessup all vieing for those 5 places. Dam good riders simply had to not qualify and yet in the final we had the might of Anatolij Kuzmin, Alexander Pavlov, Gregorij Khlynovski, Viktor Trofimov, Viktor Kalmykov. And people (well only Ian and Derek) seem to think it was in some way fair. Edited December 7, 2012 by oldace 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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