oldace Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Ahh, but that's why I didn't say it was an answer! There is no answer to your question because as we have the GPs, there are only three or so riders actually capable of winning over a lengthy series. 5 different winners in 5 years doesnt back that cobblers up does it. When did that happen in the "variety" fuelled 60s or 70s or 80s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPEEDY69 Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 5 different winners in 5 years doesnt back that cobblers up does it. When did that happen in the "variety" fuelled 60s or 70s or 80s You seem to be trying to turn it into a GP versus one-off debate? And why are different winners so important? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Indeed he is, and I have no problems with him not liking the GP but when he starts making patently untrue statements then it is frustrating. Yes World Finals were magnificent events, I went to many and always enjoyed them but the system of qualifying was so badly flawed in that many top riders were prevented from qualifying and many no hopers were seeded in order to ensure a crowd. A qualifying process that was fair and open to all was always totally impractical, it would have needed many qualifiers and repercharges and more qualifiers than would be humanly possible. There is nothing wrong with opinion but to keep merely saying the same thing when it is completely untrue starts to make him (and Derek, and the other silly bint) look a little foolish WHERE HAVE I LIED - I WOULD BE INTERESTED TO KNOW!!!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 WHERE HAVE I LIED - I WOULD BE INTERESTED TO KNOW!!!? Ian you have constantly used untruths in your quest to discredit the SGP. Fine if you dont like GP racing and prefer one off finals, there are plenty feel the same but you have gone to ridiculous lengths to get your point across. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Hampel won't win a World Championship as long as I have a hole in my ar$e and back then he stood even less a chance. Just quoting that one for future reference All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Ian you have constantly used untruths in your quest to discredit the SGP. Fine if you dont like GP racing and prefer one off finals, there are plenty feel the same but you have gone to ridiculous lengths to get your point across. But WHERE, WHERE have I lied - I honestly don't know. If you are going to Post something like that about someone - you need to back it up with EVIDENCE so that if I am in error I can apologise. I cannot and will not apologise for something when I don't know what the hell you are talking about. True I don't like the GPs - but - I have not lied about my dislike or about my reasons for so doing. All I ask is that you back up your statement with evidence or withdraw your comment. (about me telling lies - I resent it, I have NEVER called anyone on this Forum a Liar - I wouldn't - mistaken maybe, as I could be, but NEVER A LIAR). Thank you. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 But WHERE, WHERE have I lied - I honestly don't know. If you are going to Post something like that about someone - you need to back it up with EVIDENCE so that if I am in error I can apologise. I cannot and will not apologise for something when I don't know what the hell you are talking about. True I don't like the GPs - but - I have not lied about my dislike or about my reasons for so doing. All I ask is that you back up your statement with evidence or withdraw your comment. (about me telling lies - I resent it, I have NEVER called anyone on this Forum a Liar - I wouldn't - mistaken maybe, as I could be, but NEVER A LIAR). Thank you. Ian Jesus Christ man, wind your neck in. You have gone on over the years about the lack of a qualifying process. A patently untrue stance that until recently you and your cohort trotted out over and over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Jesus Christ man, wind your neck in. You have gone on over the years about the lack of a qualifying process. A patently untrue stance that until recently you and your cohort trotted out over and over. As a practicing Roman Catholic - I don't like blasphemy. I will not reply to you any further on this Thread unless you apologise, at least for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 As a practicing Roman Catholic - I don't like blasphemy. I will not reply to you any further on this Thread unless you apologise, at least for that. I remember when my kids used to make statements like that. It was cute in a 4 year old. "I wont talk to you unless you apologise" Dear god!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavan Posted November 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 its back to the one off versus gp series argument. all i wanted to say was this year we have (except tai,sorry) the best 14 riders around surely. all are capable of winning a gp i think and ive not seen that before. all qualifiers do is make sure we dont have the best as along thet way someone will fail either through injury or engine failure and that cant be right. i also read that the gp series was won by 2 40 year olds recently!! what a joke statement that is!! if you are the best in the world does it matter if you are 22 or 42. we should have stopped herbie and gollob riding at 40 because they were to good!! the only time the gp wasnt better was with 24 riders and the likes of Ulamek Brhel Ferjan (rip) and bless him old smudger. riders who couldnt win or get close and we didnt need 24 riders and the ridiculous 2 rides and your out system. sorry the one off world final doesnt come close to this years gp series. i would be interested to know who people will think will be top 8 and i reckon most people will have 4 maybe 5 the same thats it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Jarek Hampel in 2008 & 2009, and Darcy Ward in 2012? Not that I necessarily agree with the White Knight, but there's two answers to your question. All the best Rob Ward failed to qualify for 2012, and when offered turned the offer down. Hampel failed in 2008 and 2009 too. If you're arguing it should all be qualifiers the riders who finished in the 4 reserve spots would have been in the GP's in place of the wild cards. So the riders missing out were 2008 - Tomicek, Bjerre, Dobrucki, Davidsson/KK rather than Harris, AJ, KK, Lindgren 2009 - Iversen, Jedrazek, Sullivan and Monberg rather than Nicholls, Harris, Lindgren and Sayfutdinov. 2010 - Lindgren, Harris, Pepe, Watt rather than Lindgren, Harris (oh, hang on ), Woffinden and Hans. 2011 - Kolodziej, Zorro, THJ, Harris (or Iversen and Harris finished top 8) rather than Kolodziej, AJ, Nicki, Emil 2012 - Vaculik, KK, Ljung, Madsen rather than well, this year was a farce, as they ended up having to give Ljung the qualifying place anyway and nobody actually wanted to be in the GPs 2013 - Dryml, Madsen, Batchelor, Andersen/Vaculik/Ljung/Buckowski rather than Vaculik, Woffy, Wardand Hampel Looking back, I think I prefer pretty much all the picks to the actual qualifiers! Especially for 2013 because as bad as Woffy is, he is better than Dryml, Andersen, Ljung and Buckowski. Probably Batchelor too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavan Posted November 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 I understand its about opinions but i cant see how anyone could prefer a qualifying system to the way its done now. Imagine this scenario. Gollob misses the Polish qualifiers through injury so through go Pepe Hampel and Walasek. Meanwhile Ward/Holder have mechanical nightmares at the Commenwealth final so one of them fails to make it. Nicki Pedersen also injured misses the danish rounds and Bjarne or Hans sneak through At the semi finals Lindback and Emil both suffer from a fall and ef so they dont get through. The world final would be poor and yes its extreme but something along those lines could happen. Most years those who finish 9th and 10th go back in anyway and i can see the majority of this years line up being in again next year with maybe MJJ or Laguta. If you would rather have qualifiers and see Dryml, Madsen, Batchelor next year rather than Hampel Vaculik and Ward tehn i think you need your head tested Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) I understand its about opinions but i cant see how anyone could prefer a qualifying system to the way its done now. Imagine this scenario. Gollob misses the Polish qualifiers through injury so through go Pepe Hampel and Walasek. Meanwhile Ward/Holder have mechanical nightmares at the Commenwealth final so one of them fails to make it. Nicki Pedersen also injured misses the danish rounds and Bjarne or Hans sneak through At the semi finals Lindback and Emil both suffer from a fall and ef so they dont get through. The world final would be poor and yes its extreme but something along those lines could happen. Most years those who finish 9th and 10th go back in anyway and i can see the majority of this years line up being in again next year with maybe MJJ or Laguta. If you would rather have qualifiers and see Dryml, Madsen, Batchelor next year rather than Hampel Vaculik and Ward tehn i think you need your head tested You dont have to imagine that scenario, similar happened most years pre 1995. Of course those wanting a return are usually the ones who took a friend to a league match who loved it until the tac ride was used then the fantasy friend immediately didn't want to go again. You can usually substitute tac ride for guest rider, R/R etc or whatever the argument is at the time. Now I remember having a conversation with a fantasy friend on Sept 6th 1976. Fantasy Friend "That Pete Collins must be quite good, world champion eh, did he beat Olsen easily" Me "Well no he didnt beat him at all actually" FF "Huh" Me "Well each rider has 5 rides and the one with the most points wins" FF "OK that seems reasonable so other riders beat Olsen then" Me "Eh well no actually because despite being one of the best riders in the world Olsen wasn't there thanks to 2 exclusions in an earlier round" FF "So in a season of 1000s of races you are telling me that an exclusion and an engine failure in just two of them means he cant be world champion, well no way am I going to watch that sport" Edited November 14, 2012 by oldace 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPEEDY69 Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 I understand its about opinions but i cant see how anyone could prefer a qualifying system to the way its done now. Imagine this scenario. Gollob misses the Polish qualifiers through injury so through go Pepe Hampel and Walasek. Meanwhile Ward/Holder have mechanical nightmares at the Commenwealth final so one of them fails to make it. Nicki Pedersen also injured misses the danish rounds and Bjarne or Hans sneak through At the semi finals Lindback and Emil both suffer from a fall and ef so they dont get through. The world final would be poor and yes its extreme but something along those lines could happen. Most years those who finish 9th and 10th go back in anyway and i can see the majority of this years line up being in again next year with maybe MJJ or Laguta. If you would rather have qualifiers and see Dryml, Madsen, Batchelor next year rather than Hampel Vaculik and Ward tehn i think you need your head tested Thank you for that. You dont have to imagine that scenario, similar happened most years pre 1995. Of course those wanting a return are usually the ones who took a friend to a league match who loved it until the tac ride was used then the fantasy friend immediately didn't want to go again. You can usually substitute tac ride for guest rider, R/R etc or whatever the argument is at the time. Now I remember having a conversation with a fantasy friend on Sept 6th 1976. Fantasy Friend "That Pete Collins must be quite good, world champion eh, did he beat Olsen easily" Me "Well no he didnt beat him at all actually" FF "Huh" Me "Well each rider has 5 rides and the one with the most points wins" FF "OK that seems reasonable so other riders beat Olsen then" Me "Eh well no actually because despite being one of the best riders in the world Olsen wasn't there thanks to 2 exclusions in an earlier round" FF "So in a season of 1000s of races you are telling me that an exclusion and an engine failure in just two of them means he cant be world champion, well no way am I going to watch that sport" You still haven't answered as to why you want to turn this into a one-off vs GP debate? I have never said I wanted a return to the old World Championship style but there are plenty of other sports where the championis is decided either 'on the day' e.g. Athletics, or by not beating everyone else e.g. any sport which uses groups e.g. Football, Rugby, Badminton. Even with the speedway GP it's possible for a rider to be World Champ without beating one or more of the other riders over the entire series. If you and Gavan simply wanty the 'best' rider to be World Champion every year then simply use a World Ranking system to decide the champion, based around perfomance over the season at all other meetings. What I would like to see is more variety - when I was at Gorzow last year I was cheering, as were most of the stadium, for Zmarlik to win and he did do very well but outside of this one home rider wild card, there is no other opportunity to have this. Ideally I'd like qualifiers in the same season as the champion is decided because who's good this year maybe sh1te next year. Anyhow, I expect next year's World Champion to be either Hancock, Holder, Pedersen or Hampel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavan Posted November 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Who doesnt want the best rider to end up champion? isnt that what its all about? what i am talking about is having as near to possible the best riders in the world in there rather than 7 or 8 riders in most seasons that couldnt win the world title. I have said the gp was flawed when we had the 24 rider 2 races and out system but now its fair i think. In my opinion you get the best rider as world champion. These are riders in the one off world final that were not the best rider in the world that year: 65 Knutsson 73 Szczakiel 74 Michenek 83 Muller 92 Havelock In the gp i think the only year when the best rider didnt win was 2000 when Mark Loram won it. Tony Rickardsson was the best rider that year but in Round 2 in the final Mark knocked him off and Tony was excluded and in Round 5 a last place meant he had to be in the first 2 in the next 2 races only to be knocked off by Stefan Danno and not making the semis. And im honest here as you wont find a bigger Mark Loram fan then me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPEEDY69 Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Disagree - for example last year I think Pedersen was the best rider, in 2004 it was Rickardsson - GP or one-off examples can be found. With your determination for the best reider to become World Champ, why are you not in favour of awarding it based upon a world ranking across the season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavan Posted November 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 You think Nicki was better than Holder last year? i doubt anyone would agree. why do you twist what i say? the gp over a 10 round system will find the best rider over the season in 99% of times. a one off world final had people miss out mainly through no fault of their own and the winner could be concluded as the best rider that month rather than over the season. a ranking system would be a load of tosh thats not what im saying. why do you not think that the best rider shouldnt be champion? lets have a one off world final on a slick trick in Poland and watch Walasek make 4 good gates and win Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazeaway Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Havelock was on fire the year he won the WC. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPEEDY69 Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 You think Nicki was better than Holder last year? i doubt anyone would agree. why do you twist what i say? the gp over a 10 round system will find the best rider over the season in 99% of times. a one off world final had people miss out mainly through no fault of their own and the winner could be concluded as the best rider that month rather than over the season. a ranking system would be a load of tosh thats not what im saying. why do you not think that the best rider shouldnt be champion? lets have a one off world final on a slick trick in Poland and watch Walasek make 4 good gates and win So, NP was the top rider in Poland this year and second behind Iversen in Sweden. These are the two toughest leagues and you still think Holder was the 'best rider' last year do you? All I'm saying is that whatever system is in place, it's not necessarily the so called 'best rider' who becomes World Champion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 So, NP was the top rider in Poland this year and second behind Iversen in Sweden. These are the two toughest leagues and you still think Holder was the 'best rider' last year do you? All I'm saying is that whatever system is in place, it's not necessarily the so called 'best rider' who becomes World Champion. League averages ain't the b all and end all in proving who is the best rider.Invariably they are not riding the same tracks on the same day against the same riders.In the GPs they are.That is the competition to find the best rider in the world and invariably unless a rider misses meetings,it does.I thank you Arguing anything else is like arguing friday should be called tuesday.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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