BWitcher Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 I d Thanks for the stars Phil Very good post, There are no new fans round the corner and the sport is dieing without a doudt. BSI are worried about fan levels in the gp and the future. UK speedway as a pro sport will be dead within 10 years. The answer ? i dont know as i dont think there is one. Time has left speedway behind and i dont think it will ever catch on the the generations to come. Don't agree entirely. There are new fans around the corner.. there are thousands of them. However to attract them the product has to be made attractive and 'cool'. For far too long speedway has relied on an ever dwindling fan base and its marketing has consisted of popping along to a school fete with a bike every now and then. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) I d Don't agree entirely. There are new fans around the corner.. there are thousands of them. However to attract them the product has to be made attractive and 'cool'. For far too long speedway has relied on an ever dwindling fan base and its marketing has consisted of popping along to a school fete with a bike every now and then. Indeed it has, but to be honest marketing is not what is needed. Anyone could get a crowd in the once, free admission attracts people. The thing is though that they must then be shown something that they want to pay to watch thereafter and speedway simply doesn't do it. The main flaw is in the way the sport is presented, it looks, sounds and is extremely dated. I know darts is not to everyones liking but it is a good example. Up to the early 90s the BDO world final was watched by a couple of thousand old folk, all sitting in almost silence, old women doing there knitting in the front row, and that was the pinnacle, no other events attracted either a crowd or TV interest. Now roll on 20 years and look what goes on at the Ally Pally or any Premier league venue. Not an old dear in sight, loud music flashing lights, 10,000 plus crowd and a good atmosphere. The actual darts though is still largely the same, just the way it is presented that has moved on Edited December 7, 2012 by oldace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) Totally agree Oldace, I have made such points many times. Be careful you will have DropaCog on here ridiculing you for suggesting such a thing though. Technically its not a 'sport' but you can say the same thing about Wrestling. Look back at the old World of Sport days and you had a very similar audience.. the old dears in the front row etc. Its been taken to a whole new level now, purely through savvy marketing and outstanding presentation. The problem is, speedway will never have a Barry Hearn or a Vince McMahon because the current cartel would never allow it. Edited to add:- Although it must be said strides are being made at GP Level and the involvement of companies such as Monster Energy, Red Bull will only help. Edited December 7, 2012 by BWitcher 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Ludicrous arguments again Ian, you really are tying yourself in knots. You're telling us that a 'one-off' final is better than a season long competition because of the unpredictability and 'that's what sport is all about'... while at the same time telling us that a 'one-off' final is completely unfair, ruins the credibility of the sport and drives fans away. Which is it? You either believe one or the other. THIS is the reality. You yearn for the old days, many do, that is no crime. Had in the old days there been a play off system in the league, and a GP for the World Championship.. and now the opposite, you would be arguing for the former. Those days are gone Ian, times have changed and moved on. The only way for the sport to move forward and to gain new fans is for a complete rebranding on the marketing side. Rule changes and how titles are won have very little at all to do with it. Explain to me the qualification system in Formula One each year or Nascar? I don't see them struggling for credibility or struggling for fans. The facts are, other sports have moved on... speedway to a large degree (especially in the UK) hasn't. At league level in particular its still the same old tired presentation. Sorry, I don't think I ever said that the One Off World Final was unfair - I actually believed it WAS fair until oldace put his contribution to the debate. Even now - I still prefer that System. It does, however appear that the 'old' System was not as Fair as I believed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) Sorry, I don't think I ever said that the One Off World Final was unfair - I actually believed it WAS fair until oldace put his contribution to the debate. Even now - I still prefer that System. It does, however appear that the 'old' System was not as Fair as I believed. We all possibly look back through rose tinted glasses and things seem better than they actually were. The simple truth though Ian is that it is nigh on impossible to have any form of qualifying that is completely fair and gives the best 16 the possibility of making the final. It would require numerous qualyfying events then repercharges to do it. I honestly believe that, although by no means perfect, what we have now is better than anything that has gone before. Edited December 7, 2012 by oldace 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) Sorry, I don't think I ever said that the One Off World Final was unfair - I actually believed it WAS fair until oldace put his contribution to the debate. Even now - I still prefer that System. It does, however appear that the 'old' System was not as Fair as I believed. My point is, you champion a one-off World Final because thats what sport is all about.. 'unpredictability'.... preferring that to a season long system. you ridicule a play off system as you claim it impacts upon the credibility of the sport... and the champions should be those based on a season long system. Massive contradiction. Edited December 7, 2012 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickthemuppet Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Indeed the top five pooles in their league averages were their riders selected for the final. Why were they allowed nearly a third of the field is a complete mystery. There were only two English riders (Ray Wilson and Peter Collins) so not much has changed. The 1973 final was certainly a one off. The Poles practised on the track.the day before.When the visiting riders saw it it was awful and still was for the final. with ruts all over the place. The refereeing was completely inconsistant excluding Anders Michanek for a tape offence yet two races later the tapes were broken four times but nobody was excluded.The four Poles in heat 16 contrived to let Zenon Plech win so helping him to secure 3rd place . The refereeing was having a nightmare. . Peter Collins was hit by Plech in heat 19 on the first lap.but the race was not stopped then although it was on the 4th lap when Chlynovski bought down Plech. Then the race was awarded to Peter Collins who was out of the race at the time. .So the order of finish was decided on the positions the riders were in before the end of the first lap. Very odd meeting for a world final. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 My point is, you champion a one-off World Final because thats what sport is all about.. 'unpredictability'.... preferring that to a season long system. you ridicule a play off system as you claim it impacts upon the credibility of the sport... and the champions should be those based on a season long system. Massive contradiction. No, not really - two totally different Competitions. I always thought that the idea of a League was to WIN it over a Season. The 'Play Offs' add nothing to the Sport as a Sport - they just make money for the Promoters. I have nothing against Promoters earning money - but - I feel that they should do it in a way that does not bastardise the idea of the League Championship. The clue is in the name - League Championship. As for the 'One Off' World Final, you are right, I do champion it over the GP System because of it's unpredictability - that has nothing to do with the League though. You are entitled to have a different view on each Competition because differing Rules apply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Totally flawed WK, you are preaching a totally different argument for each one, effectively defeating yourself as you do it. The reality is.. you want things how they were back in the day, that is quite simply all there is to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) Sczakiel QUALIFIED Woofinden didn't - GAME SET AND MATCH to me - I think. Oh - and Sczakiel was a worthy Champion ON THAT DAY!!! No, Ian the 1973 World Final run-off was the biggest stitch up in the history of speedway. In front of 140,000 Poles there was no way a Pole would be prevented from winning. That was the meeting when Dave Lanning made his famous comment that the Poles were making up the rules as they went along. He was not reprimanded for that so one must accept the validity of it. Look at the youtube clip. The riders approach the tapes, the start marshal doesn't even put the riders under starter orders when the Pole rolls forward and the referee lets the tapes go giving the Pole a flyer and catching the usually sharp gating Mauger by surprise. The Polish attitude is shown after the crash: Mauger is lying unconscious on the track and for all anybody knew at that stage his life could have been hanging in the balance but the race was not stopped but instead the Pole, in a disgraceful display of triumphalism allows his bike to drift wide on the next lap, missing the medics bu inches and showering the unconscious Mauger and the medics with shale. That meeting was the beginning of the end for the old one-off World Final.www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQplGWLW7Zw (EDIT if it won't come up just type 1973 World Final run-off -Youtube in your search engine and you should get it.) Edited December 7, 2012 by E I Addio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 No, Ian the 1973 World Final run-off was the biggest stitch up in the history of speedway. In front of 140,000 Poles there was no way a Pole would be prevented from winning. That was the meeting when Dave Lanning made his famous comment that the Poles were making up the rules as they went along. He was not reprimanded for that so one must accept the validity of it. Look at the youtube clip. The riders approach the tapes, the start marshal doesn't even put the riders under starter orders when the Pole rolls forward and the referee lets the tapes go giving the Pole a flyer and catching the usually sharp gating Mauger by surprise. The Polish attitude is shown after the crash: Mauger is lying unconscious on the track and for all anybody knew at that stage his life could have been hanging in the balance but the race was not stopped but instead the Pole, in a disgraceful display of triumphalism allows his bike to drift wide on the next lap, missing the medics bu inches and showering the unconscious Mauger and the medics with shale. That meeting was the beginning of the end for the old one-off World Final.www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQplGWLW7Zw (EDIT if it won't come up just type 1973 World Final run-off -Youtube in your search engine and you should get it.) Pretty accurate description although Ivan wasn't unconscious, he wasn't even hurt, other than his pride, and pocket. The whole thing was really set up for Zenon Plech but he blew it, in stepped the back up plan in Szackiel and the rest is history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 Totally flawed WK, you are preaching a totally different argument for each one, effectively defeating yourself as you do it. The reality is.. you want things how they were back in the day, that is quite simply all there is to it. Have I ever said I didn't? You are right. With hindsight - in Speedway, things were very much better in those days (60's and 70's in my memory). THAT is my opinion and I am entitled to it. There are so many things that are wrong with Speedway these days, it is little surprise to me that crowds are drifting away from the Sport. I have argued my point over most of them at some point or another on this Forum and will continue to do so. I realise that to some I am a Dinosaur - but - I am truly greatful that I was around to see Speedway in the GOOD days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 (edited) No, Ian the 1973 World Final run-off was the biggest stitch up in the history of speedway. In front of 140,000 Poles there was no way a Pole would be prevented from winning. That was the meeting when Dave Lanning made his famous comment that the Poles were making up the rules as they went along. He was not reprimanded for that so one must accept the validity of it. Look at the youtube clip. The riders approach the tapes, the start marshal doesn't even put the riders under starter orders when the Pole rolls forward and the referee lets the tapes go giving the Pole a flyer and catching the usually sharp gating Mauger by surprise. The Polish attitude is shown after the crash: Mauger is lying unconscious on the track and for all anybody knew at that stage his life could have been hanging in the balance but the race was not stopped but instead the Pole, in a disgraceful display of triumphalism allows his bike to drift wide on the next lap, missing the medics bu inches and showering the unconscious Mauger and the medics with shale. That meeting was the beginning of the end for the old one-off World Final.www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQplGWLW7Zw (EDIT if it won't come up just type 1973 World Final run-off -Youtube in your search engine and you should get it.) The ref (Transpurger) allowed shocking starts throughout both the 1972 and 1973 finals - he basically released the tapes as the final rider came up to them. Mauger himself used to his advantage at Wembley in 1972. I'm not sure why it suddenly becomes "the biggest stitch up in speedway history" when it's Szczakiel who gets a flier rather than Mauger. Fair play to Szczakiel who was the best rider.... on the day. The "dodgy" heats (the Poles orchestrating a win for Plech, plus the bizzare shennanings of Heat 19) did not involve Szczakiel, who earned all 13 of his points. In his fourth race, the Russian pushed Szczakiel to the back, but he fought back from fourth to second place. Szczakiel outfoxed Mauger and beat him TWICE in the same World Final. To highlight just one race where there was a dodgy start in the '72-'73 finals demonstrates you haven't watch the full coverage of these finals. If so, you'd have seen a number or riders using them to their advantage. Szczakiel beat Mauger at his own game... and deserves credit for that. From reading Mauger's autobiography, he has no axe to grind with Szczakiel. All the best Rob Edited December 8, 2012 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 The ref (Transpurger) allowed shocking starts throughout both the 1972 and 1973 finals - he basically released the tapes as the final rider came up to them. Mauger himself used to his advantage at Wembley in 1972. I'm not sure why it suddenly becomes "the biggest stitch up in speedway history" when it's Szczakiel who gets a flier rather than Mauger. Fair play to Szczakiel who was the best rider.... on the day. The "dodgy" heats (the Poles orchestrating a win for Plech, plus the bizzare shennanings of Heat 19) did not involve Szczakiel, who earned all 13 of his points. In his fourth race, the Russian pushed Szczakiel to the back, but he fought back from fourth to second place. Szczakiel outfoxed Mauger and beat him TWICE in the same World Final. To highlight just one race where there was a dodgy start in the '72-'73 finals demonstrates you haven't watch the full coverage of these finals. If so, you'd have seen a number or riders using them to their advantage. Szczakiel beat Mauger at his own game... and deserves credit for that. From reading Mauger's autobiography, he has no axe to grind with Szczakiel. All the best Rob That's not quite the point of the discussion. The rules require that the starting marshall and the referee ensure that there is a fair and equal start. You may take the view if you wish, that its OK to play the odds on getting a roller but frankly when we are talking about a run -off to decide the highest honour in speedway I think most fans would want to see the best rider win, not the one who takes advantage of a dodgy starting procedure that did not comply with the requirement for a fair and equal start. We all know about Polish referee's even in modern times.. The real point of the debate is not Mauger -v-Szczakiel but the One-off World Final -v- the GP system. My point is that there will always be questionable refereeing decisions but a GP series evens out the luck element. If you take a couple of modern examples riders like Antonio Lindback and Freddie Lindgren are capable of winning a GP but few , if any fans would argue they could genuinely be regarded as World Champions, at least not yet anyway. For me the Szczakiel win was the start of a slide that was compounded by Egon Muller's 1983 win and made the case for a GP system with rounds in each country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Muller thou was understated, a class speedway rider who had ample practice time at Norden.For me Lee should of won his second title messed up but really Billy the kid could of won it Egon muller was a class act like Wiggy a great overall motorcyclist.! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 8, 2012 Report Share Posted December 8, 2012 Have I ever said I didn't? You are right. With hindsight - in Speedway, things were very much better in those days (60's and 70's in my memory). THAT is my opinion and I am entitled to it. There are so many things that are wrong with Speedway these days, it is little surprise to me that crowds are drifting away from the Sport. I have argued my point over most of them at some point or another on this Forum and will continue to do so. I realise that to some I am a Dinosaur - but - I am truly greatful that I was around to see Speedway in the GOOD days. Finally... Yet what you fail to realise is WK... Speedway is in the state that it is because it HASN'T moved on from the 70's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 That's not quite the point of the discussion. The rules require that the starting marshall and the referee ensure that there is a fair and equal start. You may take the view if you wish, that its OK to play the odds on getting a roller but frankly when we are talking about a run -off to decide the highest honour in speedway I think most fans would want to see the best rider win, not the one who takes advantage of a dodgy starting procedure that did not comply with the requirement for a fair and equal start. We all know about Polish referee's even in modern times.. The real point of the debate is not Mauger -v-Szczakiel but the One-off World Final -v- the GP system. My point is that there will always be questionable refereeing decisions but a GP series evens out the luck element. If you take a couple of modern examples riders like Antonio Lindback and Freddie Lindgren are capable of winning a GP but few , if any fans would argue they could genuinely be regarded as World Champions, at least not yet anyway. For me the Szczakiel win was the start of a slide that was compounded by Egon Muller's 1983 win and made the case for a GP system with rounds in each country. I'm sorry - but I simply cannot agree with that statement. Most Supporters would like to see their own Favourite Rider win the World Final - same in the GPs. If your favourite Rider doesn't win then you don't really worry too much. Mauger himself was the MASTER of conning Riders at the Gate. A lot of Riders were beaten before the Race ever started by Ivan. I site the 1972 Run Off as an example - Ivan Mauger messed around at the Star that much that he TOTALLY out psyched Bernt Persson. When the Tapes eventually went up Persson was left for dead. As far as Sczakiel is concerned - he out thought the Master on that day and won. Had Ivan been a bit more patient and waited before attempting to pass when he did - he could have still won - he didn't and he lost. On the day Jerzy Sczakiel WAS the best Rider in the World. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 Ivan lost that title in1973, through his own mistake swings and roundabouts really, no one ever says that Ivan was very lucky in 1972 he was! Briggs crash and also Olsen,s fall gifted him the title but that was the beauty of the one off final.Out of the years of the one off finals mostly the right riders won maybe not always in the right year?.I went to Norden Muller was the best rider on the day no doubt about it Lee and Sanders had there chances but didn't take them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 I'm sorry - On the day Jerzy Sczakiel WAS the best Rider in the World. I don't know how you can say that when some riders weren't even allowed to enter the world championship system because of their country of birth!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted December 9, 2012 Report Share Posted December 9, 2012 SURELY we want the World Champion to be the best rider of the year not just a given day. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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