Mixy230 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 So if Tai comes 14th or above he will prove many wrong! Come on Tai!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now I have a reason to cheer him on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) You have to love him dont you. We now have possibly 15 of the best 16 riders in the world competing for the world championship and it is a farce because of 1 rider who isn't there on merit Then he cites 1973 as how it should be with 5 riders not there on merit and one of those who was nowhere near world class getting a lucky win. Precisely. Lets also not forget that the 'one rider not there on merit' is the No 1 rider for Wolverhampton. Freddie Lindgren is not. He has a far bigger case for being there than Sczakiel did in 1973. Edited December 4, 2012 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Know Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 STILL out of the country... will send one this week. Just don't tell everyone! secret is safe with me Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavan Posted December 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Tai will make 2 semis at best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 oldace - my points exactly!! the title of my thread is 2013 best gp line up. which i think it is. we have only 1 rider who maybe shouldnt be there where as in the old one offs we often had 4,5 or 6. His argument about fairness is flawed No it isn't - Woofinden is only in it because he is British (sort of) and to put 'Bums on Seats' at Cardiff - certainly not on ability and Results. How fair is that on other Riders who have out performed him???? I simply don't understand that anyone can argue, that someone getting in to the GP Series BECAUSE OF NATIONALITY and no other reason, is right. It certainly isn't in my book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) Then he cites 1973 as how it should be with 5 riders not there on merit and one of those who was nowhere near world class getting a lucky win. While there are huge flaws in TWK's logic, I would point out that Szczakiel's win wasn't lucky. He scored 13 points out of 15 (including a win over Mauger in Heat 8), and then beat Mauger in a run-off, even outfoxing Mauger at this own speciality, getting a flier at the start. That's not lucky. Szczakiel was the best rider on that particular day - two wins over Ivan Mauger are testament to that. All the best Rob Edited December 4, 2012 by lucifer sam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 While there are huge flaws in TWK's logic, I would point out that Szczakiel's win wasn't lucky. He scored 13 points out of 15 (including a win over Mauger in Heat 8), and then beat Mauger in a run-off, even outfoxing Mauger at this own speciality, getting a flier at the start. That's not lucky. Szczakiel was the best rider on that particular day - two wins over Ivan Mauger are testament to that. All the best Rob With respect Rob you are young and going off things you have read and seen in books and such. As someone around at the time trust me Szcackiel was very lucky to win. As well as being gifted 5 places, as hosts everything possible was done to favour the Poles, albeit Plech was really the chosen one bur blew it. He was simply a journeyman who had his best match ever combined with the dice being loaded in his favour and the sport ended up with a laughing stock world champion, although in Ians mind this is how he would like it to be once again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK246 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 With respect Rob you are young and going off things you have read and seen in books and such. As someone around at the time trust me Szcackiel was very lucky to win. As well as being gifted 5 places, as hosts everything possible was done to favour the Poles, albeit Plech was really the chosen one bur blew it. He was simply a journeyman who had his best match ever combined with the dice being loaded in his favour and the sport ended up with a laughing stock world champion, although in Ians mind this is how he would like it to be once again As Szczackiel won the World Pairs Championship in 1971, with a paid maximum, he was not as bad a rider as you believe. He beat Mauger,Briggs and Michanek while partnering Wyglenda to an unbeaten 30 point total to take an FIM gold medal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 With respect Rob you are young and going off things you have read and seen in books and such. As someone around at the time trust me Szcackiel was very lucky to win. As well as being gifted 5 places, as hosts everything possible was done to favour the Poles, albeit Plech was really the chosen one bur blew it. He was simply a journeyman who had his best match ever combined with the dice being loaded in his favour and the sport ended up with a laughing stock world champion, although in Ians mind this is how he would like it to be once again Actually going by a video of the meeting. And Szczakiel was flying. Give a bit of a credit where's it due. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 As Szczackiel won the World Pairs Championship in 1971, with a paid maximum, he was not as bad a rider as you believe. He beat Mauger,Briggs and Michanek while partnering Wyglenda to an unbeaten 30 point total to take an FIM gold medal Actually going by a video of the meeting. And Szczakiel was flying. Give a bit of a credit where's it due. All the best Rob You must remember that back in the seventies the East European tracks were alien to anything the western riders were used to and it made the Poles seem miles better than they really were. Rather like Exeter used to be over here, very mediocre riders could appear world beaters round the county ground but not anywhere else, if there had been a world final at Exeter in the mid 80s and seeded 5 home riders it is not inconceivable that one would have won, it wouldnt make them world class though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK246 Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 You must remember that back in the seventies the East European tracks were alien to anything the western riders were used to and it made the Poles seem miles better than they really were. Rather like Exeter used to be over here, very mediocre riders could appear world beaters round the county ground but not anywhere else, if there had been a world final at Exeter in the mid 80s and seeded 5 home riders it is not inconceivable that one would have won, it wouldnt make them world class though Sounds a bit like Wolverhampton is the same Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Couldn't agree more.............. :approve: But it IS the unpredictability of it that makes Speedway what it is. More predictable these days because of a number of silly Rules I believe. Regarding the best Rider sometimes doesn't win - brings me back to 1973 when Jerzy Sczakiel became World Champion - few would argue that he was the best Rider in the World, but, by golly he was on the night. That was the beauty of Speedway. While there are huge flaws in TWK's logic, I would point out that Szczakiel's win wasn't lucky. He scored 13 points out of 15 (including a win over Mauger in Heat 8), and then beat Mauger in a run-off, even outfoxing Mauger at this own speciality, getting a flier at the start. That's not lucky. Szczakiel was the best rider on that particular day - two wins over Ivan Mauger are testament to that. All the best Rob EXACTLY - as I stated in an earlier Post on this Thread (see above). As Rob has pointed out Jerzy Sczakiel had some very good Results at International level - and before the usual suspects jump in - he had some very poor performances too. To me, though, that was very much part of Speedway. No way was Sczakiel a better Rider than Mauger - but - on that particular night - he triumphed. A win for the underdog a bit like Wimbledon beating Liverpool - the very unexpectedness of it was part of the delight. THAT surely is what Sport should be about - unless you want the 'same old, same old' as we get at present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 EXACTLY - as I stated in an earlier Post on this Thread (see above). As Rob has pointed out Jerzy Sczakiel had some very good Results at International level - and before the usual suspects jump in - he had some very poor performances too. To me, though, that was very much part of Speedway. No way was Sczakiel a better Rider than Mauger - but - on that particular night - he triumphed. A win for the underdog a bit like Wimbledon beating Liverpool - the very unexpectedness of it was part of the delight. THAT surely is what Sport should be about - unless you want the 'same old, same old' as we get at present. So we shall hear no more from you about the playoffs next year WK. You've made your feelings quite clear regarding the subject of the best 'over a season' being worthy winners, or the best 'on the night'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 No it isn't - Woofinden is only in it because he is British (sort of) and to put 'Bums on Seats' at Cardiff - certainly not on ability and Results. How fair is that on other Riders who have out performed him???? I simply don't understand that anyone can argue, that someone getting in to the GP Series BECAUSE OF NATIONALITY and no other reason, is right. It certainly isn't in my book. EXACTLY - as I stated in an earlier Post on this Thread (see above). As Rob has pointed out Jerzy Sczakiel had some very good Results at International level - and before the usual suspects jump in - he had some very poor performances too. To me, though, that was very much part of Speedway. No way was Sczakiel a better Rider than Mauger - but - on that particular night - he triumphed. A win for the underdog a bit like Wimbledon beating Liverpool - the very unexpectedness of it was part of the delight. THAT surely is what Sport should be about - unless you want the 'same old, same old' as we get at present. Within a few posts you have completely changed your view. Earlier you were adament that a substandard rider shouldn't be there on the strength of Nationality as it is unfair on genuine world class riders Now you think that is what sport should be about Make your mind up man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gavan Posted December 5, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 head -bashed - brick wall lets go back to a one off world final and have it at Peterborough and have Buckowski world champion, that appears to be your method. the gp is a far fairer system to decide world champion. it makes sure the best are there, and also determines theseasons best not just one night. didnt Bjarne win a gp once? imagine him as world champ because of 1 good night! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 head -bashed - brick wall lets go back to a one off world final and have it at Peterborough and have Buckowski world champion, that appears to be your method. the gp is a far fairer system to decide world champion. it makes sure the best are there, and also determines theseasons best not just one night. didnt Bjarne win a gp once? imagine him as world champ because of 1 good night! But apparently that is what sport is all about, having a world champion who is not very good, rather than one who is proven to be the best over an entire season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 You must remember that back in the seventies the East European tracks were alien to anything the western riders were used to and it made the Poles seem miles better than they really were. Rather like Exeter used to be over here, very mediocre riders could appear world beaters round the county ground but not anywhere else, if there had been a world final at Exeter in the mid 80s and seeded 5 home riders it is not inconceivable that one would have won, it wouldnt make them world class though So how come the Poles did much better than Great Britain in the World Cup during the 1960s - not just in Poland, but other countries too. Many the Poles were better than you give them credit for. Mid 80s at Exeter? So you're saying Colin Cook or Alan Rivett could have been World Champion? Give over. And was Katowice Szczakiel's home track??? I thought he came from Opole. Szczakiel is obviously a far better rider than a lot of people give him credit for. It's a shame so many have an arrogant attitude of "Well he never rode for a British League club, so he can't be any good." All the best Rob 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 (edited) So how come the Poles did much better than Great Britain in the World Cup during the 1960s - not just in Poland, but other countries too. Many the Poles were better than you give them credit for. Mid 80s at Exeter? So you're saying Colin Cook or Alan Rivett could have been World Champion? Give over. And was Katowice Szczakiel's home track??? I thought he came from Opole. Szczakiel is obviously a far better rider than a lot of people give him credit for. It's a shame so many have an arrogant attitude of "Well he never rode for a British League club, so he can't be any good." All the best Rob Twice in the 60s the Poles finished ahead of GB when the final wasn't in Poland and not once in the seventies No matter what spin you try to put on it the Poles, outside of their own country (with a few exceptions, Plech. Jancarz etc) were really not that great until the fall of communism and free movement, equally competing in Poland always lowered the standard of thw westerners so on home soil they could, and invariably did, beat the best Edited December 5, 2012 by oldace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Twice in the 60s the Poles finished ahead of GB when the final wasn't in Poland and not once in the seventies Keep trying!!!!! The Poles won the World Team Cup in the 1960s OUTSIDE of their own country... we didn't, even borrowing the likes of Briggs, Moore and Mauger. That's the point I was making. I didn't mention the seventies, just the sixties... I've had a bit of a google about and found an interesting statistic. The head-to-head between Mauger and Szczakiel between 1971 and 1973.... Mauger 7, Szczakiel 6. That's a fine record against the best rider in the world at the time. All the best Rob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 The Poles won the World Team Cup in the 1960s OUTSIDE of their own country... we didn't, even borrowing the likes of Briggs, Moore and Mauger. That's the point I was making. I didn't mention the seventies, just the sixties... I've had a bit of a google about and found an interesting statistic. The head-to-head between Mauger and Szczakiel between 1971 and 1973.... Mauger 7, Szczakiel 6. That's a fine record against the best rider in the world at the time. All the best Rob Where did those races take place though, I would hazard a guess Szcackiel's wins were all behind the iron curtain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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