lucifer sam Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 It's just racing with no malice but Roynon absolutely cannot be held accountable for the decisions Nielsen took in trying to come from behind to overtake the riders in front of him. Ah, so overtaking is now an excludable offence. 21st CH, it seems to me that just about every neutral who has seen in the incident reckons the ref got it right. It was a racing accident, but IMO the correct rider was excluded (and let's hope Roynon is fit and ready to go again next March ) Move on mate. All the best Rob 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrss Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 stefan wasnt punched by anybody . a morris said something to him as they walked into the pits. but no punches were thrown by either rider 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamebabes1 Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 Wouldn't that have been easier to say in the first place and I didn't accuse you of making it up or lying, so you admit it was hearsay, as I said evidence from the ref would have been a blue light it's the way things are decided not by messages in the pits, as you say you are Ashley Morris's mechanic perhaps you can also confirm the fact that Ashley punched Stefan in the face after the incident on track ht 4 ? I was standing overlooking the pit and saw this happen ! u obviously know very little of how speedway is run from the pits, and prove thus in your idiotic comments. Ashley is one of the nicest fairest racers, who doesn't feel the need to use his elbow to knock his opponents down. Where as steffan obviously does, and who can blame Ashley for being just a little angry. It was clear steffan used his elbow from the 1st bend stand, causing contact knocking him off. Ash never punched anyone, he was pushed away to his pit area to leave the rest to squabble. But obviously u know much more than the riders themselfs - 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fentiger80 Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 White takes out blue in my opinion. Neilsen has a good look then throws his body and back wheel into Roynon. Can't see how it could possibly be called any other way if the video was looked at. You've contradicted yourself there a bit fella, It's actually Roynon in White and Nielsen in Blue, so if you're saying White took Blue out, then you're saying that the ref got it spot on!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21st century heathen Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 I thought that was the idea of racing?,what ever way you try and dress this up,the ref got it 100% correct,its a tought one i admit but he is right You watch to much speedway at that pokey little track in Wolverampton,!!!! this is the wide open racing space that is kingslynn where move like this are done,it racing and good racing at that,sad thing is these accidents to happen from time to time I'm not dressing anything up. I've explained how I have come to the conclusion I have and shown the images to prove the point/s I've made. You have not specifically offered any counter-view just Roynon should go. Given the evidence to the contrary that I have posted how do you come to that conclusion? I like the KL track and agree there's some fantastic racing there, as there is at Monmore. I fail to see how that's a relevant point though. Ah, so overtaking is now an excludable offence. 21st CH, it seems to me that just about every neutral who has seen in the incident reckons the ref got it right. It was a racing accident, but IMO the correct rider was excluded (and let's hope Roynon is fit and ready to go again next March ) Move on mate. All the best Rob That's a bit flippant. Of course it's not, but the attempted, not completed, overtake was proven to be an unsafe manoeuvre as Nielsen was not clear of Roynon as he tried to get past Morris too. Change lanes sharply on the motorway before you are clear of the other vehicle and see who the insurance company holds accountable. Not exactly true to say that just about every neutral thinks the decision was correct. There are plenty of comments on FB and Twitter, some from riders, saying Roynon was wrongly discluded and did nothing wrong. Of course the most important thing is that Roynon makes a full, speedy and comfortable recovery both physically and emotionally. He sounded very down yesterday and even hinted at calling it a day which would be absolutely heartbreaking. u obviously know very little of how speedway is run from the pits, and prove thus in your idiotic comments. Ashley is one of the nicest fairest racers, who doesn't feel the need to use his elbow to knock his opponents down. Where as steffan obviously does, and who can blame Ashley for being just a little angry. It was clear steffan used his elbow from the 1st bend stand, causing contact knocking him off. Ash never punched anyone, he was pushed away to his pit area to leave the rest to squabble. But obviously u know much more than the riders themselfs That's out of order and I've edited the end of your post. Do not resort to personal comments. I had a great view of the nudge Ash got and again there was not intent whatsoever. There was slight contact and in the conditions, try as he might, Ash just couldn't hold on to the bike. It happened to him twice and he was extremely unfortunate not to get a decision from the ref on either. I do wonder where the replays were on those occasions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Main Man Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 (edited) The light never went on but someone was told on the phone that blue was excluded, and i will ask again if this wasnt the case why did Chris Louis feel the need to get hold of the video and visit the ref in his box??? surely he would want to know who the ref was going to exclude before doing that - imagine the ref originally said roynons out, do you think chris would run up to see him with a video just to make sure he got it correct. Im going round in circles here and getting nowhere so congratulations mildenhall enjoy your trophy. One last thing fentigers79 - you blow any reasonable argument out of the water by telling blatant lies in saying Ash punched Steffan i know 100% that didnt happen, just spoke to ash and he cant beleive your even saying that, theres no point trying to reason with someone who makes things up. I walked back almost alongside Ash and Steffan and NO punch was thrown and Ash only said a few choice words but it all kicked off and if you were that near you would have seen that Rob Henry ---who is a lovely mild mannered bloke I regard as a friend --got involved with one of the Dudley mechanics and I had to hold him back and restrain him until he calmed down and the argument subsided. I meant to go and see him after the meeting but never got the chance but next time we meet I will pull his leg about it !! There is enough back biting going on without blatant lies being bandied about. I suggest you review what you have said and maybe apologise for this ?? The incident is just a racing incident with no malice intended by any rider out there. I just want to make my feelings on that perfectly clear, but I can't see how Roynon can be considered at fault. Allow me to play amateur accident scene investigator. Roynon rides the inside for the entire race up the point of contact. I don't think anyone would dispute that. In the image below the two riders can be seen (sorry for poor quality - phone snap off lap top) at the apex of turn 3/4 with Nielsen way out wide and Roynon right around the inside. https://twitter.com/...8/photo/1/large On the next image look where the riders are now. This is barely even coming off the turn. Roynon is still right around the inside. Nielsen is now also around the inside. By Nielsen's own admission (ITV Anglia clip) he "thinks" he can turn back and "squeeze" in between the Heathens lads. Look at the two riders body position. Nielsen has his left leg out, his backside off the seat his shoulder dipped (either his should or elbow in Roynon's ribs) and hanging off the bike. Just to the right hand edge you can see the back end of Morris' machine. Nielsen, by his own admission remember, is trying to turn to the inside of Morris' position to squeeze between the two riders. Roynon has held his line. Nielsen is still trying to change his line to get inside Morris. https://twitter.com/...8/photo/1/large Some have pointed to the back of Roynon's bike 'flicking' out. But why did that happen? As we can all see that Roynon holds the inside line for the whole lap and Nielsen makes a dramatic change to the line he's ridden. What effect has that had? From the image above we can see that Roynon's front end has been forced in toward the centre of the track as a result of being leaned on. The front end of the bike being slowed by contact and the rear wheel driving the bike hard has the effect of making the back end step out toward the outside as the front end is slowed and pushed inward. That's just simple physics but it does explain why people think Roynon 'flicked' the back end out. It's the contact on the front end that makes this happen. Also, on the image you can see just how small the gap between Roynon and Morris was and remember that Nielsen is aiming for this gap which is tight to the inside from a far outside line when he was in the middle of the corner. Roynon can't just stop or disappear. He's already there, and had been throughout the race. The conclusion I draw is as follows: Roynon held his line. Nielsen changed his line dramatically. Nielsen leans on Roynon. Nielsen admits trying to squeeze between the Heathens which is an admission he changed his line and that he knew how tight it was. The contact is sufficient to force Roynon's bike into changing direction. It's just racing with no malice but Roynon absolutely cannot be held accountable for the decisions Nielsen took in trying to come from behind to overtake the riders in front of him. Having looked at it many times and then slowed it down and paused I think the above explanation is about right. I have nothing against Steffan --he was my mascot in my days at Kings Lynn --and he and his mum are good friends. Somebody also mentions the earlier clash with Ash which led to the arguments in the pits ..I must admit I would like to see this again as there was two lots of contact coming down the straight before Ashley fell ---and as I have posted before all Ashley did was to say a few choice words to Steff ...perhaps justified?? Edited October 26, 2012 by Main Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave_minall Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 I've watched the video from both angles and I'm also of the opinion that Roynon held his line and Stefan changed his line so dramatically that Adam had nowhere to go. There's no way a rider would purposefully 'flick' their back wheel into an rider when they are so close, mainly because of how foolishly dangerous that is and also because it would give Roynon no benefit whatsoever. If he did that on purpose then he's creating wheelspin and that would allow Stefan through. Why would he do it? Simple. That was a result of Stefan completely cutting Roynon's nose off at a point in the track where you're supposed to be getting your wheels in line to head down the straight. We all know what an awesome person Adam is and he is an extremely fair rider that never makes rash and dangerous moves - he's always very calculated and weighs up every move before doing so - what people suggest he 'did' on here is just not in his nature. Anyway get well soon dude - fingers crossed for a speedy recovery. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 (edited) 21CH, Thankyou for a very concise accurate summing up of the whole incident. Its pretty much what I have been trying to explain also. Unfortunately its apparent that most people are looking at the one piece of footage, which is the final moment of the crash from the head on angle, which does not show the full story. If a rider was on the inside and changed lines by such an amount and ended up out near the fence where there was a collision with a rider, there would be a massive outcry.. Incidentally, I too have nothing against Stefan, in fact we get on very well. Edited October 26, 2012 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halifaxtiger Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 Now, you normally post very well HT, but please explain how Nielsen can run out of room when he has opted to move 10 yards to his left and Roynon is still right on the inside? In summary, before everyone jumps on this, I'm not saying Nielsen should have been excluded. Simply saying that a crash was inevitable in that situation as two riders were going in different directions. Complete and utter racing incident and its a shame that the rules of the sport dictate that one has to go. Certainly not black and white as some are portraying. No question that Nielsen dramatically changes direction as he comes off the bend from the outside to the inside but I am not sure that's the issue here. Its what happens when he gets into the gap between the two Dudley lads that counts. Having looked at it several times, he seems to me to go straight while Roynon comes off the inside by a couple of feet, leaving Nielsen no room at all and then they collide. Going into the bend, and using the front end view, Roynon's front wheel is on the white line but when the crash happens (and that's off the rear view) he is a couple of feet away from it. The only doubt in my mind is its possible that even if Roynon had not moved there would still have been a collision, which makes it Nielsen's fault by going for a gap that did not exist. I am certainly not as convinced as I was. One thing I most certainly do agree with and that is that it should not necessarily be the case that one rider has to blamed for being the cause of an accident. I doubt if there is a speedway fan who hasn't seen a pile up that has been the result of two riders going for the same piece of track at the same time, yet I have never seen a race where there is a re-run with all four when that happens. If you can have bunching on the first bend, why not on all bends for all four laps ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fentigers79 Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 I walked back almost alongside Ash and Steffan and NO punch was thrown and Ash only said a few choice words but it all kicked off and if you were that near you would have seen that Rob Henry ---who is a lovely mild mannered bloke I regard as a friend --got involved with one of the Dudley mechanics and I had to hold him back and restrain him until he calmed down and the argument subsided. I meant to go and see him after the meeting but never got the chance but next time we meet I will pull his leg about it !! There is enough back biting going on without blatant lies being bandied about. I suggest you review what you have said and maybe apologise for this ?? Here's a link to today's article in the Cambridge news paragraph 4 http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Sport/Other-Sports/Nielsen-secures-title-in-last-race-Tigers-drama-25102012.htm Having looked at it many times and then slowed it down and paused I think the above explanation is about right. I have nothing against Steffan --he was my mascot in my days at Kings Lynn --and he and his mum are good friends. Somebody also mentions the earlier clash with Ash which led to the arguments in the pits ..I must admit I would like to see this again as there was two lots of contact coming down the straight before Ashley fell ---and as I have posted before all Ashley did was to say a few choice words to Steff ...perhaps justified?? Obviously Laurence your experience and reputation goes before you and I do not begin to understand all that you do , only stating my opinions as I and many others who saw ht15 have done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arson fire Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 I've watched the video from both angles and I'm also of the opinion that Roynon held his line and Stefan changed his line so dramatically that Adam had nowhere to go. There's no way a rider would purposefully 'flick' their back wheel into an rider when they are so close, mainly because of how foolishly dangerous that is and also because it would give Roynon no benefit whatsoever. If he did that on purpose then he's creating wheelspin and that would allow Stefan through. Why would he do it? Simple. That was a result of Stefan completely cutting Roynon's nose off at a point in the track where you're supposed to be getting your wheels in line to head down the straight. We all know what an awesome person Adam is and he is an extremely fair rider that never makes rash and dangerous moves - he's always very calculated and weighs up every move before doing so - what people suggest he 'did' on here is just not in his nature. Anyway get well soon dude - fingers crossed for a speedy recovery. he did mount the kerb and barge lindgren out the way at newcastle recently....so that's not entirely true....but yes on the whole Adam is a fair, quality rider....gets well soon I hope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BWitcher Posted October 26, 2012 Report Share Posted October 26, 2012 (edited) No question that Nielsen dramatically changes direction as he comes off the bend from the outside to the inside but I am not sure that's the issue here. Its what happens when he gets into the gap between the two Dudley lads that counts. Having looked at it several times, he seems to me to go straight No need for you to say anything else HT. Riders do not normally go straight when they are yet to exit the corner, they are drifting out. Its why riders hate it when someone turns 'left' on them. I do totally agree with you regarding the 'need' to exclude someone though. Edited October 26, 2012 by BWitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rami Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 Wouldn't that have been easier to say in the first place and I didn't accuse you of making it up or lying, so you admit it was hearsay, as I said evidence from the ref would have been a blue light it's the way things are decided not by messages in the pits, as you say you are Ashley Morris's mechanic perhaps you can also confirm the fact that Ashley punched Stefan in the face after the incident on track ht 4 ? I was standing overlooking the pit and saw this happen ! Just thought i would pop back to see if you had the decency to apologise for accusing someone of doing something that thye clearly didnt do - should have known you wouldnt - how is the weather in your own little world by the way! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ommer Mon Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 The incident is just a racing incident with no malice intended by any rider out there. I just want to make my feelings on that perfectly clear, but I can't see how Roynon can be considered at fault. Allow me to play amateur accident scene investigator. Roynon rides the inside for the entire race up the point of contact. I don't think anyone would dispute that. In the image below the two riders can be seen (sorry for poor quality - phone snap off lap top) at the apex of turn 3/4 with Nielsen way out wide and Roynon right around the inside. https://twitter.com/...8/photo/1/large On the next image look where the riders are now. This is barely even coming off the turn. Roynon is still right around the inside. Nielsen is now also around the inside. By Nielsen's own admission (ITV Anglia clip) he "thinks" he can turn back and "squeeze" in between the Heathens lads. Look at the two riders body position. Nielsen has his left leg out, his backside off the seat his shoulder dipped (either his should or elbow in Roynon's ribs) and hanging off the bike. Just to the right hand edge you can see the back end of Morris' machine. Nielsen, by his own admission remember, is trying to turn to the inside of Morris' position to squeeze between the two riders. Roynon has held his line. Nielsen is still trying to change his line to get inside Morris. https://twitter.com/...8/photo/1/large Some have pointed to the back of Roynon's bike 'flicking' out. But why did that happen? As we can all see that Roynon holds the inside line for the whole lap and Nielsen makes a dramatic change to the line he's ridden. What effect has that had? From the image above we can see that Roynon's front end has been forced in toward the centre of the track as a result of being leaned on. The front end of the bike being slowed by contact and the rear wheel driving the bike hard has the effect of making the back end step out toward the outside as the front end is slowed and pushed inward. That's just simple physics but it does explain why people think Roynon 'flicked' the back end out. It's the contact on the front end that makes this happen. Also, on the image you can see just how small the gap between Roynon and Morris was and remember that Nielsen is aiming for this gap which is tight to the inside from a far outside line when he was in the middle of the corner. Roynon can't just stop or disappear. He's already there, and had been throughout the race. The conclusion I draw is as follows: Roynon held his line. Nielsen changed his line dramatically. Nielsen leans on Roynon. Nielsen admits trying to squeeze between the Heathens which is an admission he changed his line and that he knew how tight it was. The contact is sufficient to force Roynon's bike into changing direction. It's just racing with no malice but Roynon absolutely cannot be held accountable for the decisions Nielsen took in trying to come from behind to overtake the riders in front of him. I have to say that I agree with 21st Century Heathen's analysis. The Youtube video and Anglia TV footage do make it look as though Adam takes a look and flicks out a back wheel at Stefan. It looks bad but it is deceptive as what it does not capture is the abrupt change of line from Stefan. Referee's make good calls and bad calls and I have seen plenty of both in my time but the advantage the Referee has over all of us is that he is in an elevated position and can see the lines that riders are taking. For those who have never watched racing from the Ref's box believe me it does make a big difference. That means that the Ref's first call is usually best and that videos are often used only to prove in close up whether there has been any contact or not. That's clearly not an issue here. On that basis if his first call was that Stef should have been excluded (and I have no proof of that) then that is what he should have stuck with and the fact that he appears to have changed his mind after a visit from Chris Louis is incredible. Chris should know better then to go to the box and the Ref should certainly know better than to engage him in discussion before giving a decision. To go on a slight detour here was a contributory factor the fact that we have playoffs in the National League? (and this is not just because we finished top of the table). The situation put all four of them under enormous pressure and this is a League which is for relatively inexperienced riders. Just a thought. Our sympathies have to go to Adam. We all know his story. He is very down at the moment and who can blame him. A highly talented rider and a great lad too! We've really enjoyed his company at Dudley over the last 2 years. We all hope he will get over this and best wishes to him for the future whatever he decides that this will be. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TMW Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 It has to be said on reflection, but for the aid of a replay the Ref probably would have gone for Nielson from his vantage point. It just goes to show the fortunes can soon turn with the flick of a play button Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Blue Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 It has to be said on reflection, but for the aid of a replay the Ref probably would have gone for Nielson from his vantage point. It just goes to show the fortunes can soon turn with the flick of a play button A shame that replays are needed but had they not been , the correct decision probably wouldn't have been made and the wrong team would be league chmpions now . But I do see your point . Whichever way a decision goes I would prefer it be the right one , so if it needs replays then so be it ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stansolo Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 At the end of the day the team that finishes TOP of the league are the TRUE champions. This play off crap is basically lip service to the BSPA and SKY tv .... Id just like to shout out table toppers Dudley Heathens IMO "CHAMPS" .......................end of... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villiers210 Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 A shame that replays are needed but had they not been , the correct decision probably wouldn't have been made and the wrong team would be league chmpions now . But I do see your point . Whichever way a decision goes I would prefer it be the right one , so if it needs replays then so be it ! The problem is though, it seems that it wasn't the video that swayed the referee, but a certain official who should have not even been there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveEvans Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 At the end of the day the team that finishes TOP of the league are the TRUE champions. This play off crap is basically lip service to the BSPA and SKY tv .... Id just like to shout out table toppers Dudley Heathens IMO "CHAMPS" .......................end of... Except for that's not the rules. Any team that finishes top of the table but loses the play offs will always make this claim. But the rules that all teams vote on in their AGM are the rules. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Blue Posted October 27, 2012 Report Share Posted October 27, 2012 (edited) I have to admit in any sport that I believe the team that finishes top at the end of their league season should be crowned as champions but that's just not the way it is in speedway ! The teams that have finished top in all 3 levels of Speedway have all failed in the play offs and are not league champions ! Although this may be something to be pondered by the powers that be the whole play off system was set up to keep interest going in the league for more clubs . Is there a better way ? I'm not sure . Edited October 27, 2012 by Super Blue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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