Sully Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 The Panther’s action this off-season, has highlighted two issues that I believe will come back and haunt them. Firstly, The nonchalant way they have treated their assets. They have portrayed little importance to their rider or their wishes. That probably, In future riders will think twice before signing for them. And Secondly, fellow Clubs and Promoters will put Panthers at the bottom of the list of clubs they do business with. The way they have mucked everyone around this year, is nothing more then contempt. They say you reap what you sow…. complete garbage. Peterborough want to field the strongest line up possible but clearly there are some issues concerning Bjerre's injury and Ryan Fisher. Why should they allow other teams to sign their assetts before they are able to sort their own team out? Nobody is restricting a rider from earning a living. Lynn could have bought Puk instead of schlien but chose not to. They shouldn't have assumed they could use another teams assett for a third year on the trot without putting their hands in their pocket. Still 3 months to go before the start if the season so plenty of time for it all to get sorted. Fact is if you don't have any assetts you have to wait for riders to come available before trying to do a deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve0 Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 Overheard from the school playground and repeated on the BSF - "My club's richer than yours and we'll make you wait! Why? Because we can!" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crump99 Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) Overheard from the school playground and repeated on the BSF - "My club's richer than yours and we'll make you wait! Why? Because we can!" You're beginning to sound like Swindon's version of KKS. No - don't blame the BSPA - blame the Peterborough promoters because it is them that are deliberately dragging their heels! Don't hide behind the rules How can you say they are within their rights? They are most certainly in the wrong! It doesn't take a genius to work out 4 into 1 doesn't go - so sign the one and let the others get on with securing an alternative team place - it's not rocket science !!! A Kings Lynn fan can see it so why can't you? I agree that the asset system isn't ideal but the cart is being put before the horse here, its no good ignoring the rules, getting rumbled and then saying that the asset system should be abolished. And while I agree that Mr Frost is dragging his heels a bit now as the rules stand he's perfectly within his rights to make everyone sweat as long as he pleases, he holds all the Aces. Slightly different scenario between the clubs but it's not rocket science to compare the two. Edited December 22, 2012 by Crump99 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 The Panther’s action this off-season, has highlighted two issues that I believe will come back and haunt them. Firstly, The nonchalant way they have treated their assets. They have portrayed little importance to their rider or their wishes. That probably, In future riders will think twice before signing for them. And Secondly, fellow Clubs and Promoters will put Panthers at the bottom of the list of clubs they do business with. The way they have mucked everyone around this year, is nothing more then contempt. They say you reap what you sow…. You may well be right about the points I have highlighted but the other side of the coin is that other clubs may get the message that when you deal with Frost you go by the book and not cut corners or make assumptions in the way that KL possibly have done. None of us have a crystal ball so we can't tell what the long term effects will be for Peterboro, for better or worse, but in the short term it seems that the ball in in Frost's court and there is not much anyone else can do about it as far as I can see. It will all sort itself out before the season starts though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunRobin Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 You may well be right about the points I have highlighted but the other side of the coin is that other clubs may get the message that when you deal with Frost you go by the book and not cut corners or make assumptions in the way that KL possibly have done. None of us have a crystal ball so we can't tell what the long term effects will be for Peterboro, for better or worse, but in the short term it seems that the ball in in Frost's court and there is not much anyone else can do about it as far as I can see. It will all sort itself out before the season starts though. The real danger to the promoters, following Frost's antics, is that a rider feeling hacked off & taking the BSPA to court in a Bosman situation. Remember, these riders are not tied in to a contract & are classed as self employed. If this went to court I could see all promoters losing their assets as I have no doubt that a court would see this as a breach of the same magnitude as Bosman's lawyers put forward. No contract, so rider free to ride wherever he chooses. It may well pay the BSPA to speak to Frost in their own interests or risk losing their asset bases & thus lose the loan fees that they currently get. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomo1 Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 Well thats not going to happen till the 2 BSPA meetings in January!! Frost has done nothing against BSPA rules - merely biding his time as the season doesn't start for another 3 months. Next someone will say its illegal to have points limits because certain riders may not get a place in a team?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E I Addio Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 The real danger to the promoters, following Frost's antics, is that a rider feeling hacked off & taking the BSPA to court in a Bosman situation. Remember, these riders are not tied in to a contract & are classed as self employed. If this went to court I could see all promoters losing their assets as I have no doubt that a court would see this as a breach of the same magnitude as Bosman's lawyers put forward. No contract, so rider free to ride wherever he chooses. It may well pay the BSPA to speak to Frost in their own interests or risk losing their asset bases & thus lose the loan fees that they currently get. One of the main differences between this situation and the Bosman case at the moment is that the riders have not lost any money because the season has not started. Bosman had lost earnings so he was able to sue for that loss, but you can't sue for what you haven't lost. You saw how messy it all got a couple of years ago when people started going off to court. Allen Trump, who started the litigation thinking he had a solid case finished up going out of speedway. That's the sort of unforeseen consequences you risk in going to court on this type of thing. Riders have more important things to concentrate on than getting involved with court cases that may have all kinds of unforeseen repercussions on their careers., not to mention the costs involved with lawyers. It will all blow over. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 No - don't blame the BSPA - blame the Peterborough promoters because it is them that are deliberately dragging their heels! Don't hide behind the rules How can you say they are within their rights? They are most certainly in the wrong! It doesn't take a genius to work out 4 into 1 doesn't go - so sign the one and let the others get on with securing an alternative team place - it's not rocket science !!! Well said Steve0. There actions this close season may see other teams giving them a wide berth next close season , so they might only have themselves to blame if they wish to alienate themselves even further. I find it odd that Peterborough and Coventry are the 2 teams that seem to be dragging their heels over trying to work with other promotions. Its like the winter of discontent all over again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crump99 Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 Well said Steve0. There actions this close season may see other teams giving them a wide berth next close season , so they might only have themselves to blame if they wish to alienate themselves even further. I find it odd that Peterborough and Coventry are the 2 teams that seem to be dragging their heels over trying to work with other promotions. Its like the winter of discontent all over again. Rather excitable post but only to be expected! Peterborough going about their business and more concerned about their own team than others. Not doing anything outside the rules but still in the wrong. Everyone needs a scapegoat! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattK Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 The real danger to the promoters, following Frost's antics, is that a rider feeling hacked off & taking the BSPA to court in a Bosman situation. Remember, these riders are not tied in to a contract & are classed as self employed. If this went to court I could see all promoters losing their assets as I have no doubt that a court would see this as a breach of the same magnitude as Bosman's lawyers put forward. No contract, so rider free to ride wherever he chooses. It may well pay the BSPA to speak to Frost in their own interests or risk losing their asset bases & thus lose the loan fees that they currently get. When a rider "signs" for a club as an asset, what exactly are they signing? You say they are not tidied to am contract, but I'm not so sure. If it did go to court I'm sure the taxman would also be interested in the self-employed status of riders, who are clearly not self-employed and of course should be employees of their respective clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevebrum Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 Rather excitable post but only to be expected! Peterborough going about their business and more concerned about their own team than others. Not doing anything outside the rules but still in the wrong. Everyone needs a scapegoat! And riders need a home. Assuming they arent going to be held to ransom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A ORLOV Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 When a rider "signs" for a club as an asset, what exactly are they signing? You say they are not tidied to am contract, but I'm not so sure. If it did go to court I'm sure the taxman would also be interested in the self-employed status of riders, who are clearly not self-employed and of course should be employees of their respective clubs. As riders are able to ride for more than one club they hire their services to a club and treated as self employed, some of the riders may have set themselves up as a Company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Shovlar Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 I don't see for a second what Peterborough have done wrong here. They own the riders, they call the shots. What are Andersen, Iversen and Batchelor doing talking to other clubs without any permission? Frost is in his rights to make the other clubs and these riders wait until he has sorted his own team out. If the other clubs want these riders then make an offer to buy them as an asset. Simple. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A ORLOV Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) I don't see for a second what Peterborough have done wrong here. They own the riders, they call the shots. What are Andersen, Iversen and Batchelor doing talking to other clubs without any permission? Says a fan of the cleaner than clean club, what a joke from a wind up merchant Edited December 22, 2012 by A ORLOV 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
65Sarge Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) I don't see for a second what Peterborough have done wrong here. They own the riders, they call the shots. What are Andersen, Iversen and Batchelor doing talking to other clubs without any permission? Frost is in his rights to make the other clubs and these riders wait until he has sorted his own team out. If the other clubs want these riders then make an offer to buy them as an asset. Simple. I know Mr Shovel is fishing, but I'll bite regarding his first and last paragraphs 'you mean just like Judas and last years runners up did'! Edited December 22, 2012 by 65Sarge 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuzzCagney Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 (edited) I don't see for a second what Peterborough have done wrong here. They own the riders, they call the shots. What are Andersen, Iversen and Batchelor doing talking to other clubs without any permission? Frost is in his rights to make the other clubs and these riders wait until he has sorted his own team out. If the other clubs want these riders then make an offer to buy them as an asset. Simple. My god- that from a Poole fan! (Still I suppose it makes a change from the 'we wuz robbed' posts ) By the way, a Very Happy Christmas to all Robins fans and here's to a great 2013. Same goes for fans of all teams too. Edited December 22, 2012 by BuzzCagney 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DunRobin Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 One of the main differences between this situation and the Bosman case at the moment is that the riders have not lost any money because the season has not started. Bosman had lost earnings so he was able to sue for that loss, but you can't sue for what you haven't lost. You saw how messy it all got a couple of years ago when people started going off to court. Allen Trump, who started the litigation thinking he had a solid case finished up going out of speedway. That's the sort of unforeseen consequences you risk in going to court on this type of thing. Riders have more important things to concentrate on than getting involved with court cases that may have all kinds of unforeseen repercussions on their careers., not to mention the costs involved with lawyers. It will all blow over. No it was not for loss of earnings, it was for restraint of trade. Very few riders get a contract for more than one season & are regarded as self-employed. Furthermore, if clubs insisted on saying that the riders are assets, it would be possible for the Inland Revenue to get interested as it would be very debatable as to whether they really come under the term self employed. Remember the BBC came under attack recently for considering certain regular staff as self employed & are at present having to look into some employees & put them on the payroll. This then becomes very expensive as the employer has to pay NIC contributions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
severnsider Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 Seeing that HMRC have a lot of rules for employment status it is very easy to consider riders as self employed. They take a financial risk, it is up to then how they prepare their equipment & they provide their own equipment to name three things that would count in their favour as self employed (null) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crump99 Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 And riders need a home. Assuming they arent going to be held to ransom. That's not our problem we're not a charity. Personally I'd imagine that everything is really pretty well sorted and everyone knows where that stand despite the press stories which at least keep speedway interesting during the dull phase! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnglishRoundabout Posted December 22, 2012 Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 I don't see for a second what Peterborough have done wrong here. They own the riders, they call the shots. What are Andersen, Iversen and Batchelor doing talking to other clubs without any permission? Frost is in his rights to make the other clubs and these riders wait until he has sorted his own team out. If the other clubs want these riders then make an offer to buy them as an asset. Simple. I actually agree with the sentiments of this post Steve. My issue is, how Andersen and Batchelor are being treated by their parent club. Both, incidentally, are people....people need contact, reassurance and something to aim for. Some structure if you like. If i treated staff like the way Peterborugh have treated their assets, i would be vilified. I don't buy the nonsense of them 'not being able to get hold of' Batch and Hans. Its 2012 for goodness sake! Frost should at least organise with his assets monthly contact to keep them updated on the situation, especially that the majority of the assets live abroad and in Europe or Australia. To have no contact with them until it suits the management, surely creates impatience and frustration amomgst riders who just want their future sorted out. Anyway, as Buzz states, seasons greetings to all fellow posters. I know it gets a bit terse on this forum from time to time, but it is a great way of catching up and talking about our sport. I for one enjoy the banter and the wind up attempts from Shov! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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