Sheffield 2013

[graz gp]

Bottom end looks weak. But wait until the rest of the team announced. We need good signings now. If not could be in big trouble.

[wjm]

I would echo your sentiments if a rule was in place to say all clubs have to do it but doing it of your own back puts you at a disadvantage from the off , but not let us kid ourselves ... Knight will be on 30 quid a point and thats the reason he's in , nothing to do with developing young brits !

 

What pee's me right off is when you see foreigners like Bager get a team place and the likes of a Ben Wilson a Brit on a similar average and arguably a better rider get over looked.

 

Short term it possibly does put you at a disadvantage, but the progression of younger riders (in some cases) isn’t easy in the short term, that’s why every club isn’t doing it, that’s why clubs who do decide to go down that road should be applauded for doing so.

 

The implementation of such a rule where you have to have x amount of young Brits would be tough on a lot of sides in terms of attracting numbers to fill a side, finding replacement for injuries etc, your Bagers and co are just as fundamental to the running, and progression of British youngsters as a lot of British youngsters are.

 

In theory, watching Jake Knight, young asset, grow from a struggling 3 pointer to decent reserve, good second string to strong heat leader over the next few seasons won’t be a longer term disadvantage, it will be both excellent to watch as a paying fan AND for the benefit of the club in the long term, and in the short term that has been balanced out, again, in theory by introducing Stead into the side.

 

Stead and Knight is 9+3 =12, is it that much different from say Wilson + Bager = 6+6 coming to the same 12 points a meeting? , what two will you get more out of across the season, and long term? ( I don’t mean to pick specific riders, or do anyone a disservice just giving examples) more than likely Stead and Knight, hopefully, both in terms of entertainment and points from Stead, and progression and enthusiasm from Knight.

 

I can understand the frustration as such, there is always a feeling among supporters of every side, not just football, not just the best, or worst sides that things could be better, but the promotion are savvy Machin in particular is a smart guy when it comes to Speedway IMO, there will be a decent thought process behind the signing.

[OdsalBoy]

Grajczonek would be a welcome acquisition IMO

[OILYRAG]

Short term it possibly does put you at a disadvantage, but the progression of younger riders (in some cases) isn’t easy in the short term, that’s why every club isn’t doing it, that’s why clubs who do decide to go down that road should be applauded for doing so.

 

The implementation of such a rule where you have to have x amount of young Brits would be tough on a lot of sides in terms of attracting numbers to fill a side, finding replacement for injuries etc, your Bagers and co are just as fundamental to the running, and progression of British youngsters as a lot of British youngsters are.

 

In theory, watching Jake Knight, young asset, grow from a struggling 3 pointer to decent reserve, good second string to strong heat leader over the next few seasons won’t be a longer term disadvantage, it will be both excellent to watch as a paying fan AND for the benefit of the club in the long term, and in the short term that has been balanced out, again, in theory by introducing Stead into the side.

 

Stead and Knight is 9+3 =12, is it that much different from say Wilson + Bager = 6+6 coming to the same 12 points a meeting? , what two will you get more out of across the season, and long term? ( I don’t mean to pick specific riders, or do anyone a disservice just giving examples) more than likely Stead and Knight, hopefully, both in terms of entertainment and points from Stead, and progression and enthusiasm from Knight.

 

I can understand the frustration as such, there is always a feeling among supporters of every side, not just football, not just the best, or worst sides that things could be better, but the promotion are savvy Machin in particular is a smart guy when it comes to Speedway IMO, there will be a decent thought process behind the signing.

 

 

Will Knight score his 3 to make the 12 up with Stead ?

 

 

Wilson is capable of maximums , can't say owt about Bager because I just dont rate him and I dont know how he keeps getting team places.

Edited December 3, 2012 by OILYRAG

[wjm]

I think you can.

 

Nielsen, Jacobs & Sarjeant all average far higher in the NL and all are younger. Nielsen won the U19 championship at Sheffield last season and rode for the Sheffield/Scunthorpe side in 2011, while Jacobs finished 3rd. Sarjeant is from Sheffield.

 

They would all come in on the same PL average and none are yet fixed up with PL clubs.

 

To me its fairly obvious that any one of them would have been a better option, and a case could be made that the likes of Reade, Hopwood, Halsey, Greenwood, Ritchings & Morley would be preferable.

 

Might be wrong but are two of the three not assets of other clubs (Nielsen and Jacobs) I appreciate Knight was and Sheffield have purchased him, but maybe this wasn’t an option on the other two?

 

The asset system is flawed in many ways, but, if you can get a commitment from a guy like Knight I can understand why you would back a guy at that age as your asset ahead of another clubs riders.

 

Knight seems like a guy who is pretty determined and focussed to make speedway his career, I can understand why you would invest in him (not to say the others don’t only referring to Knight as he is the main subject here).

 

My own opinion, possibly wrong, when you are signing kids at that age, averages alone isnt the only factor, need a bit more than that to show you are going to progress longer term IMO.

 

Will Knight score his 3 to make the 12 up with Stead ?

 

Some weeks he might, some weeks he won’t, some week he might get 5, he might go a couple of meetings at home and struggle to make his 3.

Edited December 3, 2012 by wjm

[OILYRAG]

Might be wrong but are two of the three not assets of other clubs (Nielsen and Jacobs) I appreciate Knight was and Sheffield have purchased him, but maybe this wasn’t an option on the other two?

 

The asset system is flawed in many ways, but, if you can get a commitment from a guy like Knight I can understand why you would back a guy at that age as your asset ahead of another clubs riders.

 

Knight seems like a guy who is pretty determined and focussed to make speedway his career, I can understand why you would invest in him (not to say the others don’t only referring to Knight as he is the main subject here).

 

My own opinion, possibly wrong, when you are signing kids at that age, averages alone isnt the only factor, need a bit more than that to show you are going to progress longer term IMO.

 

 

 

Some weeks he might, some weeks he won’t, some week he might get 5, he might go a couple of meetings at home and struggle to make his 3.

 

 

The point is WJM ... there is better 3 pointers out there than him available (some listed above in HT's post) and is 20 years old young nowadays in speedway ?

[wjm]

Possibly there is yes, I am not disputing that.

 

My own thought is that 20 is still young, I think it’s the same with football though ever since guys like Messi, Rooney and Ronaldo came along the expectation seems to be if you haven’t made it by 21/22 you aren’t going to, Ward, Woffinden and Holder seem to have made it the same in speedway, guys can progress in differing ways.

[OILYRAG]

Possibly there is yes, I am not disputing that.

 

My own thought is that 20 is still young, I think it’s the same with football though ever since guys like Messi, Rooney and Ronaldo came along the expectation seems to be if you haven’t made it by 21/22 you aren’t going to, Ward, Woffinden and Holder seem to have made it the same in speedway, guys can progress in differing ways.

 

 

Same could be said about Koppe , 24 years old and he's being thought of as a young prospect .

[Friddy75]

My problems not with Jake Knight or Stead or Koppe. It's the set up of the team. If we had gone for Haines at reserve or brought Lambert back then I would be happy to have Knight. Yes I would of preferred Sarjeant or Nielsen but that is my personal preference. But Koppe and Knight at reserve is very weak. Add to that one of our second strings has just come out of the reserve berth and then our number one, however good or bad he is going to be will struggle to hold his average. We haven't got many points left. Taking into account what riders remain available I feel we are going to end up with a very weak side.

 

If we are building for the future that's fine but after the crowds dropped so rapidly last season can we afford to risk another poor team? This team might look good in a season or two, but will Sheffield still be running then?

Many voted with their feet last season but the die hard fans still went whatever. The worry is how long will the die hard fans still keep going if the team is built on the cheap lacking any ambition. The more and more the crowds drop the less atmosphere created. Which is going to make it less likely that new fans are going to come back after a first visit.

[Backless]

I think you can.

 

Nielsen, Jacobs & Sarjeant all average far higher in the NL and all are younger. Nielsen won the U19 championship at Sheffield last season and rode for the Sheffield/Scunthorpe side in 2011, while Jacobs finished 3rd. Sarjeant is from Sheffield.

 

They would all come in on the same PL average and none are yet fixed up with PL clubs.

 

To me its fairly obvious that any one of them would have been a better option, and a case could be made that the likes of Reade, Hopwood, Halsey, Greenwood, Ritchings & Morley would be preferable.

 

So, what's the location of Sarjeant's address got to do with it? He's been riding at least as long as Knight, seems to regularly pop up in the PL as an NL guest and makes it easy on a cold night to fill in a programme: 0, 0, 0, N. Never even looks like making the first part of a step up. Hopwwod is listed as having ridden for Mildenhall II in TWO THOUSAND AND SIX (!) so the blossoming of that talent is a bit of a waiting game.

 

There would be plenty of teams ahead of Sheffield looking at Nielsen & Jacobs. Ipswich would probably have first refusal. Remind me which one they went for......

I have no idea if it is the case, but either of them wouldn't be the first to over estimate their value. The difference this winter is that the majority if not all promoters are reining in their financial exposure.

[OILYRAG]

Its nothing to do with building for the future ... like some said about Jacobson last season they will be dropped by the end of May ... all we are seeing now is Hoggy bumbling his way to another poor septet !

Edited December 3, 2012 by OILYRAG

[Backless]

Its nothing to do with building for the future ... like some said about Jacobson last season they will be dropped by the end of May ... all we are seeing now is Hoggy bumbling his way to another poor septet !

 

They probably will be ... if they have a broken shoulder blade & ligament damage.

[romans lovechild]

lets not condemn jake before he has turned a wheel for us, the lad is keen to sign for us,was willing to travel from norfolk for second half rides,and shows ambition to step up and test himself against better riders,

hope the management go out and sign mark lemon and ricky wells now.

[tigerowl]

Bit uncalled for - Tigerpig indeed.

Edited December 3, 2012 by tigerowl

[OdsalBoy]

kalle katajisto?

[The Third Man]

Four riders signed, four riders who wont increase their averages, i can see the last three being hall sanchez and skiddy,

[squall]

Bit uncalled for - Tigerpig indeed.

 

I'm going to do my damnedest to make that name stick!

[JCookie]

Sheffield are fine with signing Knight if they subsidise their side with balance IMO.

 

I appreciate others may have a better NL average than him, but is that NL average their limit? Maybe in some case yes, maybe not in the case of others.

 

If I was an EL promoter I would invest in a few PL riders on 5 or 6 averages who I would see as a “project” before I would a few riders on higher averages.

 

If an EL promoter was to sign a Bellego, Aspegren or Campton as part of their squad it would be pretty understandable IMO, guys on a lesser average but with that bit more potential.

 

Won’t be able to make a true judgement on the signing of Knight until the rest of the side is announced IMO.

 

I like the idea of clubs signing riders with the understanding that it will take time for them to improve and find themselves, they key is being able to manage the situation.

 

I hope/would think Knight will be in the NL as well next season which should in turn help with confidence issues if he finds the PL a bit hot at times, and he will, as long as he shows progression, good on him, and Sheffield for taking it on.

 

There is a bit of a shortage of riders in this country, every club needs to take on the responsibility of growing riders.

 

 

You make a good point about taking on riders who haven't progressed as far as others but have potential. I'm fairly sure Lakeside took Worrall on a 3.something PL average and he was an EL revelation. Same with Swindon taking a 5 point rider in Birks this season coming. You can only give them a chance.

[tigerowl]

It's much less of a risk with a number seven and Jake is worth the risk. If it doesn't work out, it is a position that can be changed easier than all the others.

[spin king]

Never known a thread move so quick down to one signing.

 

Okay not the 3 point rider that I would have gone for myself, would have been Nielsen or Jacobs for me.

 

But there was a clue last season that this could happen, and towards the end of last season both myself, Squall and SKJ all said that Jake could well be in the side for this season, so in a way I am not surprised to see him given a chance, and that what we have to do is give the lad a chance.

 

Nice to see the usual suspects coming out as soon as there is a signing that appears to be a bit suspect.

 

Friddy 75 who know every signing that the Promotion is going to make, seems to have all the inside knowledge on who is going to sign and who is not going to sign for Sheffield, maybe they can introduce me to who they get their information from.

 

Maybe Friddy is right but I am prepared to wait and see who the next three signings are and then I will make some sort of judgement on the team and how it will progress. .