Sky & Sgp - Wild Card, Substitute Riders Points Don't Count?

[manchesterpaul]

Just noticed during the Monday Sky Sports speedway broadcast that they showed Martin Vaculik as placed 14th in the GP standings. I went to check that according to regulations that this isn't so and i see the official SGP site having him in 14th place too with his 42 points! That's a little puzzling as i notice Speedway Star have taken to 'rightfully' separating the Wild Card and Substitute riders from the permanent SGP riders in their standings. Also, it's something i've always done on the MiniMax racecards.

 

As far as i am aware, in the GP classification it is only the 15 riders who begin the series whose points count. Can someone confirm this is so and that there has not been a change to the standard regulation which is included in the 2012 regulations;

 

 

077.8.5 FIM Speedway World Championship Grand Prix

 

Qualifying System

 

The total Grand Prix points scored by each rider having taken part in the FIM

Speedway World Championship Grand Prix Series during the season shall be

shown on the Final Overall Grand Prix Classification of that year.

 

The current year’s Final Overall Grand Prix Classification, after removing the

Wild Card riders, the Qualified Substitute riders, the Track Reserve riders and

any substitute riders who have participated in the year’s Championship, as they

are not taken into consideration, shall determine the riders’ qualifications for the

next year’s Championship as follows

[iris123]

süre minimax has it right yet again.Seem to remember this debate when Hans Andersen was going great guns as a wild card.Bit farcical in a way,that it was possible he would get enough points to be up there on the rostrum,but all his points didn't actually count towards anything official

[PHILIPRISING]

I ASKED Graham Brodie, FIM Speedway Grand Prix secretary, and he says it is his understanding that should Vaculik accumulate enough points to finish in the top eight he would qualify automatically for 2013.

[manchesterpaul]

I ASKED Graham Brodie, FIM Speedway Grand Prix secretary, and he says it is his understanding that should Vaculik accumulate enough points to finish in the top eight he would qualify automatically for 2013.

 

WOW! I despair lol, does any part of the speedway world have it's house in order as to know what the other hand is doing.

 

Did you, or will you if you speak to him again, ask if he has read the FIM official regulations i quote in a post above?

 

So where does that leave us? the regulations are clear as day, and i do indeed speak of the 2012 regulations, yet the FIM GP secretary contradicts them 100%!

 

http://www.fim-live....eedwayGP_en.pdf

 

 

My 'understanding' of the section below is that Vaculik can't qualify. It's an unusually clear explanation in the world of rules & regulations. However, who do we go with the FIM GP secretary or the published regulations?. I'm very confused and this time understandably so. I've no way of knowing which is right. If it turns out Graham Brodie is wrong well that's quite a howler indeed considering his position. But is he wrong?

 

077.8.5 FIM Speedway World Championship Grand Prix

 

Qualifying System

 

The total Grand Prix points scored by each rider having taken part in the FIM

Speedway World Championship Grand Prix Series during the season shall be

shown on the Final Overall Grand Prix Classification of that year.

 

The current year’s Final Overall Grand Prix Classification, after removing the

Wild Card riders, the Qualified Substitute riders, the Track Reserve riders and

any substitute riders who have participated in the year’s Championship, as they

are not taken into consideration, shall determine the riders’ qualifications for the

next year’s Championship as follows

Edited August 22, 2012 by manchesterpaul

[PHILIPRISING]

HAVE emailed Graham quoting the regulation you posted ... will let you know when he responds

[manchesterpaul]

HAVE emailed Graham quoting the regulation you posted ... will let you know when he responds

 

Cheers many thanks. I'll keep an eye out on this thread. As much as anything i want to know for sporting/entertainment reasons when watching the GP and the chase for the top eight.

[PHILIPRISING]

GRAHAM replied: OK. I answered your mail off the top of my head and it looks like I was wrong.

Vaculik is a Qualified Substitute so will not automatically qualify.

[manchesterpaul]

GRAHAM replied: OK. I answered your mail off the top of my head and it looks like I was wrong.

Vaculik is a Qualified Substitute so will not automatically qualify.

 

Nice to have clarification. So all's well that ends well........ummmmm! except for Martin Vaculik of course

Edited August 23, 2012 by manchesterpaul

[pandorum]

Seems like you have highlighted another reason why our sport is considered a joke by so many sports fans.

One of the guy's in charge of the SGP and one of those involved in the premier (ie only) speedway magazine in the UK don't have a clue about the rules of the world's premier speedway competition.

This is disturbing beyond belief.

I have never read the SGP rule book but never thought for ONE moment that Vaculik could qualify even if he did get in the top 8.

If those in charge and those charged with reporting on it don't know what they are talking about then what hope is there for speedway :)

[lucifer sam]

Nice to have clarification. So all's well that ends well........ummmmm! except for Martin Vaculik of course

 

Not really. If he finished in top eight on the back of just 7 appearances as a replacement rider, it would be almost impossible to ignore him when it came to the permanent four seeded spots for next year.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited August 23, 2012 by lucifer sam

[pandorum]

Not really. If he finished in top eight on the back of just 7 appearances as a replacement rider, it would be almost impossible to ignore him when it came to the permanent four seeded spots for next year.

 

All the best

Rob

 

I would say it is impossible to ignore him on what he has done in 3 meets.

If Chris Harris was given a spot over him it would render the SGP a joke.

Vaculik must be #1 for the picks after Hampel.

[sancho]

I thought he was the reserve replacement for Hampel not a wild card. So why shouldn't he qualify if he gets into the top 8

[PHILIPRISING]

HE'S not a wild card but the same rule applies. Does need looking at. As I read it a rider could theoretically come into the series, top the scorers, be crowned World Champion but not qualify for the following year. Planning to have a chat with the FIM bods over the weekend.

 

Incidentally, our latest info is that Hampel plans to return in Malilla.

[iris123]

I think you have read it wrong.Like i said with the Andersen case.He could top the scorers,but wouldn't even get a bronze medal as officially his points don't count!!!!!I agree with Pandomonium,that this is all crazy

 

I think you don't contribute that regularly any more tothe Star,but surely you are there every GP and i assume Mr Brodie is as well.You would have thought both of you would actually know this without even having to look it up!!!

 

You are the one conducting the press conferences....i mean giving information out to the world press and you don't know a rider is scoring bucket loads of points,but it count for nothing in the scheme of things.....love this sport

[Ghostwalker]

I would say it is impossible to ignore him on what he has done in 3 meets.

If Chris Harris was given a spot over him it would render the SGP a joke.

Vaculik must be #1 for the picks after Hampel.

 

yeah, unless he manages top three in the GP challenge.

[pandorum]

yeah, unless he manages top three in the GP challenge.

Obviously I meant if he had to go to a pick.

 

HE'S not a wild card but the same rule applies. Does need looking at. As I read it a rider could theoretically come into the series, top the scorers, be crowned World Champion but not qualify for the following year. Planning to have a chat with the FIM bods over the weekend.

 

Liverpool had the same problem with the European Cup so it's not just speedway.

But the fact that a top man in the SGP series does not know what is going on has to be something that should be looked at as well.

The rule is not something that can be 'read' by an individual as it is unequivocal and states clearly what is and what is not. And what you say cannot happen as the rule clearly states it can't theoretically or otherwise.

If a riders points are not counted in qualification for next year then they are obviously null and void in the final table so Vaculik finishes 1st and he would not 'be crowned World Champion' as his points don't count. Of course the sport would look stupid but what's new there.

The obvious answer is rotate any substitute riders when injuries occur so riders cannot accrue enough points to cause any embarrassments.

 

You have exposed a can of worms with one innocent email and it seems that you still do not 'understand' the rule which for speedway is unusually concise and simple.

Edited August 23, 2012 by pandorum

[lucifer sam]

I think you have read it wrong.Like i said with the Andersen case.He could top the scorers,but wouldn't even get a bronze medal as officially his points don't count!!!!!I agree with Pandomonium,that this is all crazy

 

I think you don't contribute that regularly any more tothe Star,but surely you are there every GP and i assume Mr Brodie is as well.You would have thought both of you would actually know this without even having to look it up!!!

 

You are the one conducting the press conferences....i mean giving information out to the world press and you don't know a rider is scoring bucket loads of points,but it count for nothing in the scheme of things.....love this sport

 

The points do count in the standings, but not in terms of qualification. I think it's been like that all along. In 1999, Mark Loram finished as World No 5 (he is included in the official standings that year as fifth), having competed in 5 out of 6 rounds as a wildcard, but still had to qualify for 2000 via the 1999 GP challenge.

 

He only just made it (he was facing elimination in the face in one race, only for another rider to have an engine failure), but got through, and then won the 2000 World Championship!!

 

So theoretically someone could be World Champion yet not qualify for the following year's series. I think maybe a re-think is in order.

 

All the best

Rob

 

Obviously I meant if he had to go to a pick.

 

 

Liverpool had the same problem with the European Cup so it's not just speedway.

But the fact that a top man in the SGP series does not know what is going on has to be something that should be looked at as well.

The rule is not something that can be 'read' by an individual as it is unequivocal and states clearly what is and what is not. And what you say cannot happen as the rule clearly states it can't theoretically or otherwise.

If a riders points are not counted in qualification for next year then they are obviously null and void in the final table so Vaculik finishes 1st and he would not 'be crowned World Champion' as his points don't count. Of course the sport would look stupid but what's new there.

The obvious answer is rotate any substitute riders when injuries occur so riders cannot accrue enough points to cause any embarrassments.

 

You have exposed a can of worms with one innocent email and it seems that you still do not 'understand' the rule which for speedway is unusually concise and simple.

 

No you've read it wrong. The riders are only excluded from the classification when it comes to qualifying for the following year. They are not totally excluded from the overall standings.

 

There are two paragraphs. You're reading it all as one.

 

Look at the final standings for 1999. Mark Loram is still fifth.

 

All the best

Rob

[manchesterpaul]

The points do count in the standings, but not in terms of qualification. I think it's been like that all along. In 1999, Mark Loram finished as World No 5 (he is included in the official standings that year as fifth), having competed in 5 out of 6 rounds as a wildcard, but still had to qualify for 2000 via the 1999 GP challenge........

 

 

.................The riders are only excluded from the classification when it comes to qualifying for the following year. They are not totally excluded from the overall standings.

 

That's a view i was veering towards, but couldn't find a clear reference to confirm if it is the case or not. On the MiniMax racecards i have always had the following under the 'standings'

 

"Above 15 riders are the only ones whose points count in the final 2012 series

classification. Top 8 qualify for the 2013 SGP series."

 

This week's GP will be the first to have a rider totalling enough points to enter the top 15 so i was going to add Vaculik's points in the notes section.

 

UPDATE: I notice the Speedway Star whilst keeping the series regular 15 riders separate have placings listed 13th, 15th, 16th for them. Only thing the Star persists in getting so wrong is they list riders with the same points on alphabetical first name order!, instead of using the lowest riding jacket takes precedence which is a clear cut well established rule of the SGP.

 

So theoretically someone could be World Champion yet not qualify for the following year's series. I think maybe a re-think is in order.

 

Extremely unsatisfactory. However fortunately the Wild Card system would fortuitously come to the rescue, probably by accident and not design.

 

There is a similar situation for football's Champions League in that if the winners fail to qualify via their domestic league for the following year's competition they are automatically granted a place in the competition as 'Champions' at the expense of a fellow league club. Guess speedway have via the Wild Card an opportunity to ensure the champion would always take part.

 

Similarly with Wild Card places taking up a quarter of the GP series it also allows for those whose points are within the top eight level to be inserted the next year. Although that's not guaranteed by any means, especially if for instance two of the world's top riders were injured early on or mid-season.

Edited August 23, 2012 by manchesterpaul