World Cup Final 14th July

[PHILIPRISING]

I would imagine Philip Rising attends speedway meetings as a represetative of speedway star and is known by the riders as such, and I fail to see how the riders know when he is in journalist mode or fan mode . Don`t think any riders make their feelings known about a fellow competitor and certainly not to the press .

 

YOU are so wrong and especially your last sentence. Just goes to show that you know little about the riders I spend time with, including Chris Harris and Chris Holder, Greg Hancock, Nicki Pedersen, etc.They are quite capable of knowing when we are just chatting (quite often in a hotel or airport or on a plane) or conducting an actual interview.

[LagutaRacingFan]

I agree, if darcy wasnt up to it they also had doyle who is one of the most inform aussie riders at the moment

 

Are you serious? :lol: :lol:

 

Jepsen Jensen - Emil - Jonsson - Doyle

 

Spot the odd one out.

[PHILIPRISING]

Not going to trawl through lodas of posts,but you did make a point of saying the Doc was pulling darcy's hand this way and that to no ill effects and that the Doc was a hand specialist.Now it seems he couldn't use his hand properly????

 

I DID and there appeared to be little or no ill-effects but perhaps in the heat of battle the actual process of releasing the clutch caused him some discomfort. I also think he was just race rusty.

 

With regard to the Joker. On the first count of race manipulation, of course both BSI and the FIM (particularly Race Director Tony Olsson and referee Craig Ackroyd) were unhappy and were discussing various options immediately after the meeting. It soured the Final (although not the result in my opinion) and obviously needs to be tackled.

 

As to the Joker itself, I think it is fair to say, although I have no firm evidence to support it, that the displeasure with the whole Joker scenario is more prevalent in the UK than abroad. That could have much to do with the actual title (slightly different connotation in other languages) and because for us it tends to be synonymous with It's A Knockout.

 

And, of course, it does help to create some excitement and closer finishes however false and unsavoury that may be to some British fans and, it would seem, several BSF posters. Speedway is in the entertainment business and TV audiences are an essential component and these days the tail often wags the dog.

 

If I had to lay money now I doubt whether the Joker is going away anytime soon but to ensure it has any credibility the ability of teams to manoeuvre the score to suit either themselves or to disadvantage the opposition by illegal means must be removed.

[iris123]

If I had to lay money now I doubt whether the Joker is going away anytime soon but to ensure it has any credibility the ability of teams to manoeuvre the score to suit either themselves or to disadvantage the opposition by illegal means must be removed.

Can only say reading the report from the German language mag,Speedweek that the word "farce" was also used,but more with the Mikkel B+ Davey Watt incident when they both almost came toa stand still.

Edited July 18, 2012 by iris123

[Dornier]

YOU are so wrong and especially your last sentence. Just goes to show that you know little about the riders I spend time with, including Chris Harris and Chris Holder, Greg Hancock, Nicki Pedersen, etc.They are quite capable of knowing when we are just chatting (quite often in a hotel or airport or on a plane) or conducting an actual interview.

Lets be hearing some of the DIRT then Edited July 18, 2012 by dornier

[LagutaRacingFan]

I have an idea, You can play the JOKER but if you don't win the race then you gain no points from the race and you get 2 points taken away from you.

[PHILIPRISING]

Lets be hearing some of the DIRT then

 

USE your own shovel

[LagutaRacingFan]

Ask me and I will supply.

 

I have high contacts in the FIM.

[The White Knight]

I DID and there appeared to be little or no ill-effects but perhaps in the heat of battle the actual process of releasing the clutch caused him some discomfort. I also think he was just race rusty.

 

With regard to the Joker. On the first count of race manipulation, of course both BSI and the FIM (particularly Race Director Tony Olsson and referee Craig Ackroyd) were unhappy and were discussing various options immediately after the meeting. It soured the Final (although not the result in my opinion) and obviously needs to be tackled.

 

As to the Joker itself, I think it is fair to say, although I have no firm evidence to support it, that the displeasure with the whole Joker scenario is more prevalent in the UK than abroad. That could have much to do with the actual title (slightly different connotation in other languages) and because for us it tends to be synonymous with It's A Knockout.

 

And, of course, it does help to create some excitement and closer finishes however false and unsavoury that may be to some British fans and, it would seem, several BSF posters. Speedway is in the entertainment business and TV audiences are an essential component and these days the tail often wags the dog.

 

If I had to lay money now I doubt whether the Joker is going away anytime soon but to ensure it has any credibility the ability of teams to manoeuvre the score to suit either themselves or to disadvantage the opposition by illegal means must be removed.

T

 

I do agree up to a point with that statement Philip. However I think a far greater reason for the dislike for the 'Joker' in this Country is that it simply is not FAIR.

 

Poland won the World Cup a couple of years ago having played their 'Joker', Australia lost because they never got the chance to play their's. Even though the 'Aussies' were the best Team - they LOST because of the 'Joker'. How can that be right?

 

I think it is because of the innate British sense of 'Fair Play' that the 'Joker' is deemed UNFAIR, and I would suggest that as long as the Rule exists it will be subject to manipulation by Team Managers and Riders.

 

The 'Joker' should be dropped as soon as possible in the interests of having a Level Playing Field for all - and - allowing the best Team to win.

[LagutaRacingFan]

I have an idea.

 

If a team wants to play the joker, The team that's top of the standings at that current moment, Picks the rider that will go out on double points.

[PHILIPRISING]

WOULDN'T necessarily argue with any of that White Knight but as unsavoury as commercial interests might be the TV audiences are vital and the Joker is seen as a means of sustaining interest in a meeting that might otherwise become a foregone conclusion long before the end.

 

Personally I would do away with it and just allow tactical substitutes (no double points) for teams six or more in arrears but then I am not charged with convincing various TV companies, including Sky, that speedway is worthy of their money and air-time.

 

But then I still enjoy test cricket although would not argue that it is generally more exciting that 20-20.

[salty]

If I had to lay money now I doubt whether the Joker is going away anytime soon but to ensure it has any credibility the ability of teams to manoeuvre the score to suit either themselves or to disadvantage the opposition by illegal means must be removed.

Easier said than done. I think, if it has to stay, then making it an 8 point gap before the joker can be used is a way forward, as that does reduce the possible affect of a 6 point haul. In Event 1 the Russians were able to move from 6 points behind to joint leaders in just one race. When the joker can have such a pronounced affect it is more likely you will see manipulation to allow it's use.

[LagutaRacingFan]

Get rid of the joker, Just have tactical switches.

 

Or if a team wants to use a joker in a particular heat, All the other teams can replace there rider that is programmed to be in that heat with one of there top boys.

Edited July 18, 2012 by Jepsen Jensen Racing

[Paragon]

People in Cricket have been jailed for manipulating results. What is the difference between spot fixing there, and the deliberate manipulation of heat results in a World Champ speedway meeting? (eg 2 heats where riders were shutting off, and deliberately altering the results, both of those individual heats and possibly the entire event by preventing a Joker being played in the most advantageous heat)?

Edited July 18, 2012 by Paragon

[orion]

People in Cricket have been jailed for manipulating results. What is the difference between spot fixing there, and the deliberate manipulation of heat results in a World Champ speedway meeting? (eg 2 heats where riders were shutting off, and deliberately altering the results, both of those individual heats and possibly the entire event by preventing a Joker being played in the most advantageous heat)?

 

Because they never placed bets on it happening .in cricket i've seen someone let the ball go for four so that they keep that batsman on strike, it's called tactics ..as long as things are being done to help there side win there there is nothing wrong with it .

[mickthemuppet]

In a world cup final in whatever sport it is the winning team is the one that scores the most points,run or goals etc., off scratch

The joker must never be used again in a World Team Cup again. If it was a proper world championship then the results woud be in the national papers. With rules like these Speedway is only one degree up from Professional Wrestling.

[LagutaRacingFan]

Word was that Ryan was unavailable that weekend anyway, rumoured to be moving house. As for the rest of the criticism of the Oz Team, it's more a reflection on the posters themselves - none of these armchair critics ever miss a chance to slag off the Aussies, that is when they're not slagging off their own country's riders.

 

http://www.sportowefakty.pl/zuzel/298620/ryan-sullivan-jestem-troche-zdegustowany

 

Sullivan wanted to ride but Lemon never picked him.

[emerald tyke]

And, of course, it does help to create some excitement and closer finishes however false and unsavoury that may be to some British fans and, it would seem, several BSF posters. Speedway is in the entertainment business and TV audiences are an essential component and these days the tail often wags the dog.

 

Thats a bit unfair (PR) I think its because we tend to favour RACERS and not gaters!! , and lets face it thats the way the track is prepared more often than not and why newbies to the sport always say '1st from gate wins'. I'd rather see a RACE anyday regardless of outcome.Not giving into tactics seems to be an "everlasting" trait with the Brits, they hardly ever fall off when pushed etc.....preferring to try and RACE!! Hopefully Team GB will never resort to those tactics and even worse by slowing down on final bends etc like in World Cup, just to win. Thank Goodness

[spook]

Salty said:

Easier said than done. I think, if it has to stay, then making it an 8 point gap before the joker can be used is a way forward, as that does reduce the possible affect of a 6 point haul. In Event 1 the Russians were able to move from 6 points behind to joint leaders in just one race. When the joker can have such a pronounced affect it is more likely you will see manipulation to allow it's use.

 

 

this is the best way forward....

 

the nonsense at the weekend happened at the point where the Aussies were 5 behind and about to go 6 behind

 

If the joker couldnt be played until 8 behind then not only does it mean that even with a 6 pointer being registered that the leading team will be somewhere between 2 and 4 points in front......... but it also means that when a team is 7 points behind the leaders wont behave so desperately

Edited July 18, 2012 by spook

[TheReturn]

With regard to the Joker. On the first count of race manipulation, of course both BSI and the FIM (particularly Race Director Tony Olsson and referee Craig Ackroyd) were unhappy and were discussing various options immediately after the meeting. It soured the Final (although not the result in my opinion) and obviously needs to be tackled.

 

As to the Joker itself, I think it is fair to say, although I have no firm evidence to support it, that the displeasure with the whole Joker scenario is more prevalent in the UK than abroad. That could have much to do with the actual title (slightly different connotation in other languages) and because for us it tends to be synonymous with It's A Knockout.

 

And, of course, it does help to create some excitement and closer finishes however false and unsavoury that may be to some British fans and, it would seem, several BSF posters. Speedway is in the entertainment business and TV audiences are an essential component and these days the tail often wags the dog.

 

If I had to lay money now I doubt whether the Joker is going away anytime soon but to ensure it has any credibility the ability of teams to manoeuvre the score to suit either themselves or to disadvantage the opposition by illegal means must be removed.

 

That is sad that they joker is to stay. If you personally don't like it, which you stated in a later post, maybe the Speedway Star could lead a campaign to ditch the joker. Most fans don't seem to like it, so most fans would support such a campaign. Lets remind BSI that the fans matter, not just the TV.

 

I don't think it is to do with just us British not liking it, the riders did not seem too keen when interviewed. The joker in its current guise is totally unfair, it penalises the successful team, when a team simply not good enough in earlier races can regain the points in one swoop another team as worked hard to take, therefore it is not a level playing field. If the joker can be used, it should be tactical in that if one team chooses to use the joker when X points behind, all other teams can use the joker as well in the following heats, regardless of the points. That way it becomes a tactical gamble and would add some excitement, and should stop teams trying to avoid the joker like on Saturday, because they would be allowed the chance to recapture the points themselves, making it a level playing field.