Legends What Order?

[norbold]

On achievement and skill on a bike it's hard to argue against Craven, Collins and Lee as the best of the post War Brits. But going on from there with Carter, Simmons, Ashby, Wilson, Louis, etc, surely Freddie Williams should rank above all of them and we would also need to include Tommy Price, Brian Crutcher, Split Waterman, Ken McKinlay, Nigel Boocock and Ron How in the mix.

[stratton]

On achievement and skill on a bike it's hard to argue against Craven, Collins and Lee as the best of the post War Brits. But going on from there with Carter, Simmons, Ashby, Wilson, Louis, etc, surely Freddie Williams should rank above all of them and we would also need to include Tommy Price, Brian Crutcher, Split Waterman, Ken McKinlay, Nigel Boocock and Ron How in the mix.

Yes would agree totally 'nor bold' didn't include WIlliams because he was Welsh, a bloke who never got the reconition he deserved a great no doubt about it!

[The White Knight]

On achievement and skill on a bike it's hard to argue against Craven, Collins and Lee as the best of the post War Brits. But going on from there with Carter, Simmons, Ashby, Wilson, Louis, etc, surely Freddie Williams should rank above all of them and we would also need to include Tommy Price, Brian Crutcher, Split Waterman, Ken McKinlay, Nigel Boocock and Ron How in the mix.

 

You are right norbold. Certainly Freddie should be in the top three - in fact - he could have been Number One (which he is in my book) but for the fact that Freddie won both of his Titles at his Home Track.

 

I will change my top three:

 

1) Peter Craven

 

2)Freddie Williams

 

3) Peter Collins.

 

I tend to think more of the Riders I have actually watched Racing when answering these sorts of questions.

 

Thank you for pointing that out.

[waiheke1]

Craven ( a 10 times world finalist) 2 times champion rostrum x2 died at only aged 29.On achievements alone i would of thought he would have to be in front of Collins? As for Louis you underate him i believe,he did get a rostrum spot was 4th once and he was a late starter in speedway.Louis was underated was his world final stats better than Kenny? one of the best i see ride at the Abbey in the 70s could beat Briggs and crash and not many did that!

I had Peter Collins ahead of Craven for a numbe of reasons:

1. Personal bias - COllins is one of my favourite all time riders

2. For both PCs (and also Lee) the stats alone do not truly reflect what brilliant riders there were - however while there is ample evidence of Collins' brilliance (77 inter-contrinetal final, world finals of 76/77 etc) available to view (and of course i saw him regularly around hyde Rd) to see jnust how good he was, there isn't similar footage available for a young un like me to see how ggod the other PC was

3. Collins may have one world title less, but picked up multiple world pairs titles, the consecutive maximums in WTC finals etc,which i think tends to even things out

4. Under a GP system, I think Collins may have "out titled" Craven 2-1.

5. Craven did have his career tragically cut short, but remember Collins "retired" from British speedway at the age of 26. He was still world class when he returned, but never again lookedd likely to add to his individal title.

Them's my reasons Sidney, I appreciate that many would place them in a different order.

 

On John Louis - dond't get me wrong , he was world class. The reasons I rated Simmons/Jessup/Carter higher was:

Jessup - 2nd in the World in 80, and but for engine troubles could have added a world title in 80 and another runners up medal in 81. Under a GP system would have arugably been world champ in 1980 and runner-up in 81. (just finished reading Mike Lee's autobiography and he mentions how cheap DJ was - makes you wonder if those critical engine probklems could have been avoided if he'd spent a little bit more?)

Simmons- multiple world pairs titles with different partners, as well as runner up in the individual in 76.

Carter - has an inferior record in world finals to Louis,BUT there were obviously extenuating circumstances in both 81 and 82, and he would have been a hot favourite in 85 had injury not intervened. Add to that his back to back BLRC titles (look at the other riders to have done this, there are only the all time greats) and British titles (one on one leg), as well as the fact that I beklieve he was the last Brit to top the BL averages - and I think he has to rank ahead of tiger Louis.

 

On achievement and skill on a bike it's hard to argue against Craven, Collins and Lee as the best of the post War Brits. But going on from there with Carter, Simmons, Ashby, Wilson, Louis, etc, surely Freddie Williams should rank above all of them and we would also need to include Tommy Price, Brian Crutcher, Split Waterman, Ken McKinlay, Nigel Boocock and Ron How in the mix.

Agree - after the top three I think there is a group of riders (likes of Williams, Parker, Loram etc) who would likely rank above the likes of Carter/Jessup etc.

[stratton]

A good post and the reasons you gave all have substance,the only thing i don't agree with is i don't believe Jessup would of ever won a GPseries .Because of what you said having reliable machinery over a period,there were numerous times when Jessup conveniently borrowed Lee,s bikes and on that front was never as well set up as Lee and Collins were.I am also bias as i never really was a fan of Jessup a good rider and his record is there to be seen but in my opinion was behind those 2 and in with a host of other great English riders.

[norbold]

 

 

 

 

Agree - after the top three I think there is a group of riders (likes of Williams, Parker, Loram etc) who would likely rank above the likes of Carter/Jessup etc.

Thank you. How could I have forgotten Jack Parker? Doh!

[RonButler]

Was going through my books and programmes,and out of the four nations i picked England,New Zealand,Sweden,Usa are these the top five in some peoples opinion?England 1.Craven 2.Lee 3.Collins 4.Farndon 5.Parker New Zealand. 1.Briggs 2.Moore 3.Mauger 4.Shirra 5.Ross Sweden 1.Fundin 2.Michanek 3.Rickardsson 4.Knutsson 5.T.Jansson Usa 1.Penhall 2.Hancock 3.Milne 4.Autrey 5.Ermolenko.

 

 

There were two Parkers. The brothers Jack [belle Vue] and Norman [Wimbledon]. Both were outstanding competitors at club and international level. They unsderstood and appreciated each others style to the extent that I thought it worth double the admission cost when they were pitted against each other at either Hyde Road or Wimbledon.

 

Those were the days when the sport, now known simply as speedway, called speedway racing and lived up to that name.

[norbold]

I know there were two brothers...I was named after Norman!