Gavan Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Very hard to define an order of legends in any sport. Do we go by World Titles or National crowns? Is Scott Nicholls a better rider than Mark Loram as he has won more British titles? Is Havelock a better rider than Wiggy or Tatum as he won a world crown? Look at snooker as 1 example Davis v White who was the best? Davis more world titles but White much more natural. Very hard topic to assess this one. Personally ranking it on my own combination of talent and titles these are the top 3 that i have seen race i.e 1980 onwards. AUSTRALIA - CRUMP, SANDERS, ADAMS DENMARK - NIELSEN, GUNDERSEN, JAN O USA - HANCOCK, PENHALL, ERMOLENKO SWEDEN - RICKARDSSON, PER JONSSON, ? ENGLAND - LEE, LORAM, TATUM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keef Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 (edited) If we're to give top 10 Poles of the 80s, or top 10 kiwis of the noughties, we're going to be scraping the barrel a bit... Ok, here's my first crack at top 10 riders by decade, starting at the 60s (I don't know enough about the 50s and prior ) and including a guess at the 2010s. 60s Fundin Briggs Mauger Knuttson Craven Plechanov Moore Woryna Wyglenda GNorden 70s Mauger Olsen Collins Michanek Lee Simmons Louis Autrey Plech P Crump 80s Nielsen Penhall Gundersen Lee Carter S Moran Pedersen Morton Sigalos Knudsen 90s Rikkardson Nielsen Ermolenko Jonsson Hamil Hancock Pedersen Havelock Gollob Knudsen 2000s Crump Rickardson Pedersen Gollob Adams Loram Hancock Sullivan Hampel 2010s Ward Emil Holder Hancock Gollob Hampel N Pedersen Crump Dudek Tai Woffinden (here's hoping!) Since seeing Ove win at my first world final in 63 I agree with your first 7..would be a battle between Sjosten, Waloszek, Jancarz, Harrfeldt, Jansson, Boococks, Wilson, Ashby, Betts, and the other 3. I would have to fit Sanders, Knudsen, and Jessup in with perhaps Wiggy, Wiltshire and Tatum. Be good to see Kildemand break through this decade, with Brits such as Woffy, Barker, Worrall, and young Aussie Kid Morris, and Masters. The Poles have Dudek, Janowski, Zmarzlik, Pawlickis etc.,the Danes the Jensens etc., and Ukraine Loktaev. Ward should be dominant. Edited June 13, 2012 by cockney robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Cockney Robin – good points Jessup – was actually originally in my top 10 for both the 70s and 80s. In the 70s I eventually dropped him out for Crump, on the grounds that he didn’t get on the podium in World Finals, wouldn’t have been a title contender any year under a GP system, and domestically wasn’t as strong as Crump. In the 80s, I included Knudsen ahead of him on the grounds that Knudsen missed out on w World Title due to a controversial incident in 86, and despite injuries which held his career back, was a force at both domestic and international level over the whole decade. Jessup but for engine troubles in 81 would likely have added a second silver medal to that won in 1980, and under a GP system would likely have finished 1st in 80 and second in 81. At the end of the day, I leant towards riders who were world class for a significant portion of the decade (Sigalos, Penhall and Lee I guess were exceptions to this), whereas Jessup was World Class 80-82, but then tailed off noticeably from there. Sanders – was close to my lists in both the 70s/80s, was probably number 12 in my 80s list. He had an excellent World Finals record, but other than the Pairs final in 83 can’t remember too many other stand out performances from him in big meetings, and under a GP system can’t see him having picked up any medals. Wigg (80s) and Tatum (80s and 90s) were also both just outside my lists , as too was Ermolenko (80s). Wiltshire, Nilsen and Gustaffson were all also close to making my 90s list, but not sure who I would leave out to accommodate them. And 2010s you are right, a host of youngsters coming through (esp Poles and Danes), some of whom will end up being world class, some who will be good but not world beaters, some will never live up to their promise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted June 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) Cockney Robin – good points Jessup – was actually originally in my top 10 for both the 70s and 80s. In the 70s I eventually dropped him out for Crump, on the grounds that he didn’t get on the podium in World Finals, wouldn’t have been a title contender any year under a GP system, and domestically wasn’t as strong as Crump. In the 80s, I included Knudsen ahead of him on the grounds that Knudsen missed out on w World Title due to a controversial incident in 86, and despite injuries which held his career back, was a force at both domestic and international level over the whole decade. Jessup but for engine troubles in 81 would likely have added a second silver medal to that won in 1980, and under a GP system would likely have finished 1st in 80 and second in 81. At the end of the day, I leant towards riders who were world class for a significant portion of the decade (Sigalos, Penhall and Lee I guess were exceptions to this), whereas Jessup was World Class 80-82, but then tailed off noticeably from there. Sanders – was close to my lists in both the 70s/80s, was probably number 12 in my 80s list. He had an excellent World Finals record, but other than the Pairs final in 83 can’t remember too many other stand out performances from him in big meetings, and under a GP system can’t see him having picked up any medals. Wigg (80s) and Tatum (80s and 90s) were also both just outside my lists , as too was Ermolenko (80s). Wiltshire, Nilsen and Gustaffson were all also close to making my 90s list, but not sure who I would leave out to accommodate them. And 2010s you are right, a host of youngsters coming through (esp Poles and Danes), some of whom will end up being world class, some who will be good but not world beaters, some will never live up to their promise. Good post, Sanders record i believe was very good people i speak to it is usually 50/50 split in opinion some yes some no.At the time of his death he was riding as well as most and i believe would of been a threat to Nielsen and Gundersen certainly until at least 1990.Would love to here what John Berry thinks as he knew more than anyone.Billy at world level was not that consistent but until his death had really got that consistency into his racing a outstanding rider. Edited June 14, 2012 by sidney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBBATH Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Wot about Wales then??-1. Fred Williams 2. Eric Williams 3. Ian Williams 4. Leo McAuliffe(all World Finalists) 5. Cyril Francis.-actually only other two Welsh riders I can think of are Taffy Owen and Brian Woodward!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyMac Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Would love to here what John Berry thinks as he knew more than anyone.Billy at world level was not that consistent but until his death had really got that consistency into his racing a outstanding rider. Sidney, don't tell me you missed issue 17 of Backtrack, including our in-depth feature on Billy Sanders, including the candid and informed views of John Berry. You can order that issue here... http://www.retro-speedway.com/page.php?13 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 Wot about Wales then??-1. Fred Williams 2. Eric Williams 3. Ian Williams 4. Leo McAuliffe(all World Finalists) 5. Cyril Francis.-actually only other two Welsh riders I can think of are Taffy Owen and Brian Woodward!!! Phil Morris... Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted June 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 Sidney, don't tell me you missed issue 17 of Backtrack, including our in-depth feature on Billy Sanders, including the candid and informed views of John Berry. You can order that issue here... http://www.retro-spe...com/page.php?13 Have got that tmc ,a great read i would love to know at the time of his death could he have won a title?I believe he could of been a threat to Nielsen Gundersen and Ermolenko was riding at the peak of his powers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted June 16, 2012 Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 Have got that tmc ,a great read i would love to know at the time of his death could he have won a title?I believe he could of been a threat to Nielsen Gundersen and Ermolenko was riding at the peak of his powers. I don't think he would Sidney. not that he wasn't good enough, the Sanders of 83/84 vintage could easily beat the best in the world. Billy's problem was always channelling that determination and aggression into something positive, with Billy it seemed to turn into desperation. The focus seemed lost because of his ever increasing desperation to win a world title and I think it would have prevented him ever doing it. Truth is though no one really knows as regards what might have been, fun trying to dissect it though isn't it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBBATH Posted June 16, 2012 Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 Phil Morris... Steve Who he Steve?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted June 16, 2012 Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 Legend... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_Morris_(speedway_rider) Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted June 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 (edited) I don't think he would Sidney. not that he wasn't good enough, the Sanders of 83/84 vintage could easily beat the best in the world. Billy's problem was always channelling that determination and aggression into something positive, with Billy it seemed to turn into desperation. The focus seemed lost because of his ever increasing desperation to win a world title and I think it would have prevented him ever doing it. Truth is though no one really knows as regards what might have been, fun trying to dissect it though isn't it Your right Oldace but after 1980 Gothenberg you would of thought he would of gone downhill.But from Norden he seemed to up his game somewhat i took notice because i was a Phil Crump fan and were rivals.In Norden i felt Lee and Sanders were the two to beat Muller and Sanders gated him and should of been tougher on him.As you say all in hindsight i have my memories and regurlarly watch the best pairs dvd where Billy was awesome. Edited June 16, 2012 by sidney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted June 16, 2012 Report Share Posted June 16, 2012 (edited) I always held Billy Sanders in the highest esteem (he was very popular at Plough Lane), but in 1983, I too felt that he really was one of the men to beat. He was always very good, obviously, but he seemed to develop into the complete rider. Steve Edited June 16, 2012 by chunky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBBATH Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 Fair enough Steve -Phil Morris after my time-reckon he becomes #5 Wales rider displacing Cyril- think he can't displace Leo McAuliffe tho as Leo got to the World Final-think it was 1963? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 I would definitely put Phil between Cyril and Leo, Bob. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 I always held Billy Sanders in the highest esteem (he was very popular at Plough Lane), but in 1983, I too felt that he really was one of the men to beat. He was always very good, obviously, but he seemed to develop into the complete rider. Steve However, it was Dennis Sigalos who was the top man at Ipswich in 1983. Sigalos really was a rider who may have been World Champion, but for the serious injuries he sustained early in 1984. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wessex Wanderer Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) Phil Morris... Steve re Welsh team How about Howard Cole, Bob Hughes and Tom Brown. And maybe Graham Pugh (from the 50's). Also Mick Powell - a very promising junior who was badly injured in the early 70's. At least I think they were all Welsh and I am quite willing to be corrected. I was also told once that Graham Drury was part Welsh but that may have been a viscious rumour. Edited June 19, 2012 by Wessex Wanderer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 (edited) However, it was Dennis Sigalos who was the top man at Ipswich in 1983. Sigalos really was a rider who may have been World Champion, but for the serious injuries he sustained early in 1984. I can't disagree with either statement, but I do feel that Sanders had really come of age. How about Howard Cole, Bob Hughes and Tom Brown. And maybe Graham Pugh (from the 50's). Also Mick Powell - a very promising junior who was badly injured in the early 70's. I honestly never knew that Howard Cole was Welsh! In that case, he should slot in there with Leo McAulliffe. Of course, there have been other Welsh riders over the years (including Bob Hughes and Tom Brown), but without wishing to be disrespectful, there have been surprisingly few top-liners. Steve Edited June 19, 2012 by chunky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBBATH Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 Is Bob Hughes Welsh-he rode for Newport for a long time but I thought he was born in England-surely also Howard Cole was English?Pugh of Cardiff is indeed Welsh but I think his name is Gerald Pugh not Graham. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wessex Wanderer Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 Is Bob Hughes Welsh-he rode for Newport for a long time but I thought he was born in England-surely also Howard Cole was English?Pugh of Cardiff is indeed Welsh but I think his name is Gerald Pugh not Graham. I always thought Bob was Welsh - although he was a Bath resident. As for Howard Cole, I think my "belief" stems from a couple of articles in the Star many years ago - whether it was that he was born in Wales or had Welsh parents/grandparents I cannot remember now but put that down to fuzzy memory brought about by so many birthdays! You are quite right - it was Gerald Pugh, not Graham (that memory again!). Although he rode mainly in the lower leagues he was a good scorer at those levels for a few years. Love these sort of discussions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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