Dead Heats

[500cc]

Where a GP race ends in a dead heat, who is awarded the win? Same question for the minor placings?

 

Is the win awarded to rider with the lower riding number (i.e. Greg Hancock will always be given the win in a dead heat, whilst Andreas Jonsson would get the win against everybody but Hancock). Does a track reserve get the benefit over a temporary rider (not the wild card) replacing an injured 1-15 rider?

 

Or is there a different rule for deciding the winner?

[JCookie]

There never is a dead heat.

[500cc]

Isn't it rather that dead heats are no longer declared in GP's. You can't change the law of physics that there may be no measurable difference between two riders.

 

Athletics ocasionally has dead heats when no difference can be detected and the quality of their technology is significantly better than those camera's we see at speedway which don't even seem to be in line.

 

Is the referee simply instructed to guess, pick his favourite when he his not presented with any discernible evidence, toss a coin, award to the rider leading after the third lap or select the rider his mate has had a bet on !!!

 

It is a serious question, what are the referees instructions when it is impossible to separate two (or more !!!) riders?

[SCB]

It is the lower racing number. So as you say, technically a track reserve could be given the nod over replacement rider form the reserve list.

[The Know]

if the bsi brought in transponders full time which they keep saying is going to happen there would never be a dead heat situation.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

How many dead heats have been declared in British league racing over, say, the last ten years..?

Not many at all would be the answer..

Maybe more SHOULD be called.

Certainly back at Crayford in the '70s it was not an unheard of thing at all...

[richiej95]

I remember we had a dead heat at Wolves against Poole in the Play-Off Semi Final I think it was in 2010. Lindgren and Holder couldn't be separated so they got 2.5 points each. Not sure if they would give half points if it happened in the Grand Prix as well.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Well yes there's a standard 'formula' for a dead-heat where the total pointsavailable for the two placings are added together and, er, halved. Thus a dead heat for first means each riders gets 2 and half points. A dead heat for second each rider gets 1 and a half . A dead heat for third, each rider gets a half.

Though a dead heat in a GP race is unlikely, clearly that way of scoring it would apply.

[oldace]

Well yes there's a standard 'formula' for a dead-heat where the total pointsavailable for the two placings are added together and, er, halved. Thus a dead heat for first means each riders gets 2 and half points. A dead heat for second each rider gets 1 and a half . A dead heat for third, each rider gets a half.

Though a dead heat in a GP race is unlikely, clearly that way of scoring it would apply.

 

It wouldn't apply. As someone already said, in the case of a dead heat the win (or second/third) would be given to the rider with the lowest race number, i.e Greg Hancock could not lose in a dead heat scenario and rider number 16 could not win

[george.m]

Something tells me there was a dead heat once, and the scoring system couldn't deal with half points. Could be wrong.

[HenryW]

Something tells me there was a dead heat once, and the scoring system couldn't deal with half points. Could be wrong.

I think you are right, there was definitely a dead heat declared in one BSI meeting, I can't remember whether it was SGP or SWC, but t was after that season they abolished them. Clearly easier to update the rules than their graphics software

 

It wouldn't apply. As someone already said, in the case of a dead heat the win (or second/third) would be given to the rider with the lowest race number, i.e Greg Hancock could not lose in a dead heat scenario and rider number 16 could not win

Not strictly true. If a meeting reserve or a stand-in for an injured rider is racing, the wildcard has a lower number

 

if the bsi brought in transponders full time which they keep saying is going to happen there would never be a dead heat situation.

Whilst I don't disagree that they should use transponders, they aren't perfect.

I have seen races that have been declared contrary to what the timing system said in either MotoGP or WSB, as it was clear from replays that the transponders didn't give the correct result.

[The Know]

I think you are right, there was definitely a dead heat declared in one BSI meeting, I can't remember whether it was SGP or SWC, but t was after that season they abolished them. Clearly easier to update the rules than their graphics software

 

 

Not strictly true. If a meeting reserve or a stand-in for an injured rider is racing, the wildcard has a lower number

 

 

Whilst I don't disagree that they should use transponders, they aren't perfect.

I have seen races that have been declared contrary to what the timing system said in either MotoGP or WSB, as it was clear from replays that the transponders didn't give the correct result.

 

dont agree, very very rare for that to happen. has to be better than an old chap with a stopwatch and a super inposed line on the screen. yet another reason speedway is seen as a joke

[Vince]

Personally think transponders would be bad for Speedway. It wouldn't be long before people were asking for the figures to be made available to the public and I have a feeling that the speeds advertised and those proven by transponders at various points of the track might be a bit different. Could be one of those cases where what is believed or accepted is more impressive than the reality and all for the sake of something that happens extremely rarely.

[dontforgetthefueltapsbruv]

As unlikely as it is to happen (millions to one) the current ruling could leave the sport with the wrong world champion. Scenario - Hampel leads Hancock by one point going into the final of the last round and after a titanic 4 laps the race ends in a genuine dead heat. Hampel should be world champion as the points should be shared but instead Hancock is awarded the win due to his lower race number and picks up 2 extra points to pinch the title!!

Edited April 8, 2012 by dontforgetthefueltapsbruv

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

It wouldn't apply. As someone already said, in the case of a dead heat the win (or second/third) would be given to the rider with the lowest race number, i.e Greg Hancock could not lose in a dead heat scenario and rider number 16 could not win

 

WHAT..?!! Who the hell has come with THAT as a ruling... That makes zero sense. IF one is to have such a crazy 'system' surely the lower seeded rider should be given the advantage...!

[Humphrey Appleby]

I have seen races that have been declared contrary to what the timing system said in either MotoGP or WSB, as it was clear from replays that the transponders didn't give the correct result.

 

The placement is important, and they can't be placed right on the front of the wheel which is what determines the winner in speedway.

 

It wouldn't be long before people were asking for the figures to be made available to the public and I have a feeling that the speeds advertised and those proven by transponders at various points of the track might be a bit different. Could be one of those cases where what is believed or accepted is more impressive than the reality and all for the sake of something that happens extremely rarely.

 

Surely the opposite should be the case? AFAIK, speeds are currently calculated on the basis of a nominal race distance that's measured (I think), one metre from the inside white line. However, most riders will actually ride a greater distance during a race and will therefore actually be riding faster.

 

Speedway is not a sport where timing is especially relevant or close finishes all that common, so it could live without transponders. However, just about every other motor sport uses them these days, and the cost would be relatively trivial for the SGP.

[NeilWatson]

The FIM Grand Prix regulations state clearly:

 

In the case of a dead heat, combined points for the places must be shared

equally between the riders concerned.

[HenryW]

The placement is important, and they can't be placed right on the front of the wheel which is what determines the winner in speedway.

Exactly. That was the problem in the events that I have seen where the transponders didn't give correct results. They were placed in slightly different positions on the bikes, and obviously not on the front wheel, so they didn't quite get it right when a big slipstream pass was done coming to the line, with a significantly higher speed to the rider coming from behind. The slight difference between front wheel and transponder location was enough to have them clearly wrong when you saw the replay.

 

Speedway is not a sport where timing is especially relevant or close finishes all that common, so it could live without transponders. However, just about every other motor sport uses them these days, and the cost would be relatively trivial for the SGP.

I would say that close finishes are more common in speedway than most other major motorsport disciplines due to the short races.

 

Personally, I think having proper timing systems and being able to offer lap times for comparison between riders during the race would be really interesting, but I am a bit of a statto

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

The FIM Grand Prix regulations state clearly:

 

In the case of a dead heat, combined points for the places must be shared

equally between the riders concerned.

 

So what was all that nonsense posted on here before..? Namely:

It wouldn't apply. As someone already said, in the case of a dead heat the win (or second/third) would be given to the rider with the lowest race number, i.e Greg Hancock could not lose in a dead heat scenario and rider number 16 could not win

[HenryW]

So what was all that nonsense posted on here before..? Namely:

It's a fine question. I accepted the chat about rider number being the decider without actually checking the rules, but after checking them I can confirm that the current SGP regulations still state what Neil said....However, I do definitely recall it being said that dead heats were no longer to happen in the SGP (and I thought the same applied in the Polish league).

Could it be that the refs have been instructed to NOT declare a dead heat despite the regulation still catering for them??