Gp`s In 2013 And Beyond-where Will They Be Held ?

[PHILIPRISING]

BUT it is the chance of World Championship glory and racing in the SGP that most young riders aspire to so both go cap in hand. I have spent a lot of time with the current crop of SGP riders on this trip, many in the hotel bar (!) and all will tell you that is the SGP that is what they enjoy the most and they are enthusiastic about it going 'global' as Hancock calls it.

 

Sure league racing is their bread and butter but this is the cream and what they want most in their professional lives. And don't down play the sponsorship deals that many acquire on the back of racing in the SGP and the worldwide TV exposure they enjoy.

[Humphrey Appleby]

I have spent a lot of time with the current crop of SGP riders on this trip, many in the hotel bar (!) and all will tell you that is the SGP that is what they enjoy the most and they are enthusiastic about it going 'global' as Hancock calls it.

 

Great, but then ask them what they'd choose if it came down to making a living. Whilst I'd agree that the crude restrictions as employed by the Polish League are probably not going to do much to control costs, I suspect it's as much to make the point that the SGP shouldn't encroach on Polish League schedules.

 

I've also never really put a lot of store in what competitors think about how professional sports should be run. As with most employed persons they'd rather do less for more, and often fail to grasp the economic realities of how and why things are run in the manner they are.

[PHILIPRISING]

BUT the SGP doesn't encroach on the Polish league schedules unless a GP is rained-off. In fact, the PZM are quite happy to work with the SGP which is why the 2012 Polish league season doesn't start until Monday. There is no doubt that the decision to restrict clubs to one GP rider was fuelled by a desire to increase competition for places and therefore drive down costs.

 

The Swedish league is unaffected.

 

It is really only the UK and those wishing to run on Fridays and Saturdays that have a problem especially now that Friday practice will not start until 6pm. ANd the number of GP riders racing in the UK in the short term at least is likely to decrease rather than increase.

[Ghostwalker]

HIGHLY unlikely that there will be less than 11 rounds in Europe. If Stockholm comes on board my guess would be that it will replace the seemingly fated Gothenburg rather than Malilla. Russia is a possibility too.

 

A three GP swing in March is definitely a possibility and obviously Monster Energy will be pushing hard for one in their own backyard. The hugely positive reaction of the riders before, during and after the NZ GP, and the manner in which BSI in association with TravelPlus handled all their travel and freight arrangements, has undoubtedly made the Grand Prix world a smaller place. After all, you cannot go any further than New Zealand.

 

It is the last year of Leszno's contract although that doesn't necessarily mean that they will not try and renew it and obviously Bydgoszcz would love to get back on the bandwagon.

 

Personally i would also replace Gbg with Stockholm, however i think Ullevi stll have a few years remaining on their contract.

since its SPGP is more about money then quality of racing, i wouldn't be too surprised if they moved Målilla to Stockholm.

[Humphrey Appleby]

BUT the SGP doesn't encroach on the Polish league schedules unless a GP is rained-off. In fact, the PZM are quite happy to work with the SGP which is why the 2012 Polish league season doesn't start until Monday

 

If the GP expands any more in Europe, it'll start taking weekends used by the Polish League. From some GPs it might be possible to get to Polish clubs the following day, but it'll decimate an entire round if you have to re-stage a GP, plus I don't imagine the Polish clubs will be happy if riders get injured the day before an important league match. The SGP and Poland are headed for confrontation sooner or later because one wants more cake, but the other pays for most of it...

[Chewbacca]

Las Vegas

 

Once went to an NHRA drag racing event at the Las Vegas Motorspeedway. Boy, do those guys know how to put on a show!!

[Mr Snackette]

 

 

If the GP expands any more in Europe, it'll start taking weekends used by the Polish League. From some GPs it might be possible to get to Polish clubs the following day, but it'll decimate an entire round if you have to re-stage a GP, plus I don't imagine the Polish clubs will be happy if riders get injured the day before an important league match. The SGP and Poland are headed for confrontation sooner or later because one wants more cake, but the other pays for most of it...

 

Am I missing something here?

 

With the exception of Leszno and Gothenburg, following all the other European GPs, there is a full Ekstraliga round the following day.

 

 

[fatface]

Well not really. For the high profile football clubs it's because the return is political prestige, but for other football clubs there's frequently a turnover of owners. The difference between football and speedway though is there's a bigger supply of rich willing victims.

 

It's true that domestic speedway has its 'fan promoters' as well, but again there's a reasonably high turnover of ownership as people 'do their wedge' and depart stage left. However, the losses in domestic speedway are arguably much less in absolute terms than many other sports, and are of a reasonably known quantity. Conversely, if you're promoting a single expensive event (i.e. a GP), you could be badly hit by weather or other factors and it's more difficult to mitigate this risk.

Yes, your original point was that people are not going to continually put money into a sport without a return. My point is yes, they are. history proves that. We're over 80 years in now in British Speedway history..not many promoters have made a fortune..hundreds have lost a fortune..yet still we roll on.

 

Your further points on the Polish League and GP clash are also rather flimsy and really smack of someone desperately grasping for reasons to prove the GP series will ultimately fail.

 

You are certainly not alone in your entrenched views on this forum. There are more than a few who will only be happy if we revert to a one-off final at Wembley with all the riders wearing monkey masks and riding JAPs and the final shown as a delayed broadcast by ITV's World of Sport fronted by Dickie Davies.

 

But like it or not, the GP is here to stay and has made some really significant strides in recent years - the NZ Grand Prix probably being the biggest one. Our World Championship is playing to more live audiences than it every has, in fantastic stadiums and to a global television audience of millions. It also now has a better opportunity than ever before to take our World Championship to fresh venues in Australia, USA and possibly Argentina.

 

I certainly didn't reckon that would be the case 20 years ago. Credit where credit's due.

[stratton]

Yes, your original point was that people are not going to continually put money into a sport without a return. My point is yes, they are. history proves that. We're over 80 years in now in British Speedway history..not many promoters have made a fortune..hundreds have lost a fortune..yet still we roll on.

 

Your further points on the Polish League and GP clash are also rather flimsy and really smack of someone desperately grasping for reasons to prove the GP series will ultimately fail.

 

You are certainly not alone in your entrenched views on this forum. There are more than a few who will only be happy if we revert to a one-off final at Wembley with all the riders wearing monkey masks and riding JAPs and the final shown as a delayed broadcast by ITV's World of Sport fronted by Dickie Davies.

 

But like it or not, the GP is here to stay and has made some really significant strides in recent years - the NZ Grand Prix probably being the biggest one. Our World Championship is playing to more live audiences than it every has, in fantastic stadiums and to a global television audience of millions. It also now has a better opportunity than ever before to take our World Championship to fresh venues in Australia, USA and possibly Argentina.

 

I certainly didn't reckon that would be the case 20 years ago. Credit where credit's due.

I would dispute that all stadia is great? , i for one loved the good old days but i do enjoy the series as well but not certain things that happen in it.Also whats the point of having all these great venues if all the leagues (britain certainly)are going to the dogs.People are blinded by this so called GP success story,speedway at ALL levels is not a success going downhill if anything.

[Humphrey Appleby]

Your further points on the Polish League and GP clash are also rather flimsy and really smack of someone desperately grasping for reasons to prove the GP series will ultimately fail.

You are certainly not alone in your entrenched views on this forum. There are more than a few who will only be happy if we revert to a one-off final at Wembley with all the riders wearing monkey masks and riding JAPs and the final shown as a delayed broadcast by ITV's World of Sport fronted by Dickie Davies.

 

I don't recall ever saying I wanted a return to a one-off World Final, JAPs and Dickie Davies. I'm simply interested in providing an alternative viewpoint to the GP sycophancy that suggests history as we know it started with the SGP and that it's been the salvation of the sport. It didn't, it isn't, and the reality is that the future of the SGP is probably not as secure as people popularly imagine.

 

At some point though, the speedway authorities (mostly likely in Poland) will cotton on to the fact that the SGP organisers are making money out of the sport without them seeing any of it. There will probably be some catalyst like a rained-off GP wiping out a whole round of important league matches, or an injuries to key riders at a critical stage of the season, but eventually the current arrangements will come into question, especially if the SGP expands.

 

The other point is that the quality of riders coming through is quite dire by the standards of the past. The SGP isn't entirely to blame for this of course, but the lack of a real competitive qualification process or feeder system has arguably caused stagnation, and picking competitors because their nationality or face fits is really not a long-term solution (and BTW, F1 is not the same thing at all). The bottom line, are fans and sponsors ultimately going to be interested in a competition featuring 50-something Greg Hancocks and Tomasz Gollobs?

 

Our World Championship is playing to more live audiences than it every has, in fantastic stadiums and to a global television audience of millions.

 

Well the attendances argument is quite easy to disprove, although of course it depends when you start counting from. With respect to television audiences, well there's significant evidence they're down in the UK, and I've seen no figures provided for the vast majority of the countries where SGP coverage is supposedly shown. Until it can be proved otherwise then I'm afraid the claim that speedway is watched more widely than ever can't be considered anything but hype and myth.

 

Fantastic stadiums though, are you serious? Yes, the Millennium and Parken are good stadia, and there are two or three more that are decent by the standards of speedway stadia, but the rest are pretty much the same venues where speedway was always held.

 

It also now has a better opportunity than ever before to take our World Championship to fresh venues in Australia, USA and possibly Argentina.

 

I don't actually have a problem with the SGP expanding outside of Europe, provided it doesn't mess with the European season, and the NZ GP appears to have good from a promotional point of view. However, don't believe BSI have the sport's interests at heart or are interested in taking the SGP anywhere they can't wring a fat licence fee out of.

 

Finally, it's not my world championship. It ceased to be that when the FIM sold it for a few beans (relatively speaking) and it might as well take place on Mars for all the relevance it has to me.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Humphrey Appleby

[iris123]

I don't recall ever saying I wanted a return to a one-off World Final, JAPs and Dickie Davies. I'm simply interested in providing an alternative viewpoint to the GP sycophancy that suggests history as we know it started with the SGP and that it's been the salvation of the sport. It didn't, it isn't, and the reality is that the future of the SGP is probably not as secure as people popularly imagine.

 

At some point though, the speedway authorities (mostly likely in Poland) will cotton on to the fact that the SGP organisers are making money out of the sport without them seeing any of it. There will probably be some catalyst like a rained-off GP wiping out a whole round of important league matches, or an injuries to key riders at a critical stage of the season, but eventually the current arrangements will come into question, especially if the SGP expands.

 

The other point is that the quality of riders coming through is quite dire by the standards of the past. The SGP isn't entirely to blame for this of course, but the lack of a real competitive qualification process or feeder system has arguably caused stagnation, and picking competitors because their nationality or face fits is really not a long-term solution (and BTW, F1 is not the same thing at all). The bottom line, are fans and sponsors ultimately going to be interested in a competition featuring 50-something Greg Hancocks and Tomasz Gollobs?

 

 

 

Well the attendances argument is quite easy to disprove, although of course it depends when you start counting from. With respect to television audiences, well there's significant evidence they're down in the UK, and I've seen no figures provided for the vast majority of the countries where SGP coverage is supposedly shown. Until it can be proved otherwise then I'm afraid the claim that speedway is watched more widely than ever can't be considered anything but hype and myth.

 

Fantastic stadiums though, are you serious? Yes, the Millennium and Parken are good stadia, and there are two or three more that are decent by the standards of speedway stadia, but the rest are pretty much the same venues where speedway was always held.

 

 

 

I don't actually have a problem with the SGP expanding outside of Europe, provided it doesn't mess with the European season, and the NZ GP appears to have good from a promotional point of view. However, don't believe BSI have the sport's interests at heart or are interested in taking the SGP anywhere they can't wring a fat licence fee out of.

 

Finally, it's not my world championship. It ceased to be that when the FIM sold it for a few beans (relatively speaking) and it might as well take place on Mars for all the relevance it has to me.

I'd have to agree with Falcace to a large extent.You do seem to clutch at a rather large number of straws in your pursuit of doing a downer on the GP's.So many scenarios that will cause the ultimate failure of the GP's,usually and this is the funny bit because the promoters in the major countrieswillwant totakeover and run it themselves(when most can't even run a blooming league amongst themselves,let alone get together and run something as major as a world championship

And then you want us to believe that the dropping of a handful of WC quali rounds has caused a major lack of talent.It wouldn't be anything to dowith the fact that riders are now riding in 3,4or more leagues and taking places that a few decades ago would go to numerous local youngsters?No,let's blame the GPs,not the promoters,who you want to take over the championship of the world

 

League speedway is in pretty desperate shape around Europe,and your master plan is tol et these guys get run the one thing that is taking the sport forward.Help,Nurse

Edited April 3, 2012 by iris123

[Humphrey Appleby]

So many scenarios that will cause the ultimate failure of the GP's,usually and this is the funny bit because the promoters in the major countrieswillwant totakeover and run it themselves(when most can't even run a blooming league amongst themselves,let alone get together and run something as major as a world championship.

 

Well then they can be the masters of their own downfall, because in nearly every sport these days, the premier competition financially benefits the lower levels of competition in some way. Not speedway however.

 

And then you want us to believe that the dropping of a handful of WC quali rounds has caused a major lack of talent.

 

It's not only the qualifying rounds, but that so many of the previous season's incumbents get back in the following season.

 

It wouldn't be anything to dowith the fact that riders are now riding in 3,4or more leagues and taking places that a few decades ago would go to numerous local youngsters?No,let's blame the GPs,not the promoters,who you want to take over the championship of the world.

 

I think no-one would suggest things are done properly at a national level, and who rides where and when is certainly an issue that needs sorting out. It's not a question of who actually runs the world championship though, but who benefits from it.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Humphrey Appleby

[iris123]

Well then they can be the masters of their own downfall, because in nearly every sport these days, the premier competition financially benefits the lower levels of competition in some way. Not speedway however.

How can you say that speedway doesn't benefit from the GP's?It seems a ridiculous statement.If for instance Somerset get one of their best attendances the night before Cardiff,i would say that is a small benefit right away.Similar things happen in most countries.I have often seen people asking Danish teams to put on a meeting and a coach load will turn up.....how many people on here take in a Polish meeting after a Polish GP?Sponsors attracted to speedway because of the GPs?Facilities at Stadiums getting better as venues want to host GPs or SWC meetings.I'd say there were a number of benefits gained that trickle down.Not too sure what benefits,financially are gained at grass roots level from an Ice Hockey,Table tennis,Athletics or most other world championships,as i doubt very few actually make enough money to splash around.And another problem i would think is that most sports are goverened by their own particular body,unlike motorsports who are governed by a 'general' motorsports body.I would doubt even if speedway was making millions,that all that money would be held in a pot specifically for our sport.I don't know how the FIM works in that respect

 

 

It's not only the qualifying rounds, but that so many of the previous season's incumbents get back in the following season.

 

I fail to see any real problem caused by the GPs on this.The main problem,the very big problem is caused by the small pool of riders now,and that is totally down to riders riding in so many different leagues.But this is what the riders,promoters and i guess fans want.In fact if you look at some ofthe threads on here British fans want to see all the top stars that ride in Poland or Sweden,and that only makes the pool of riders even smaller.

Edited April 3, 2012 by iris123

[racers and royals]

Slightly off topic but not important enough for a thread of it`s own-Philip do you know if the FIM/IMG/BSI have for this season a monitor in the referee`s box so he can watch for uneven starting gate tapes rising or has the poor old jury president got to stand on the centre green with walkie-talkie in hand.

[Humphrey Appleby]

How can you say that speedway doesn't benefit from the GP's?It seems a ridiculous statement.If for instance Somerset get one of their best attendances the night before Cardiff,i would say that is a small benefit right away.Similar things happen in most countries.I have often seen people asking Danish teams to put on a meeting and a coach load will turn up.....how many people on here take in a Polish meeting after a Polish GP?

 

Incidental spinoffs (probably only amounting to few hundred euros) through geographical promixity is not really a strong argument that the SGP is beneficial to domestic speedway. Yes, improvements to the GP stadiums could be construed as beneficial, but the question is who's paying for these and how do they benefit all the other tracks?

 

Conversely, Test and ODI cricket revenues benefit all 18 first counties, as well as the 20 minor counties (and Scotland, Ireland, Holland and Denmark for that matter), not just those grounds staging the matches. Similarly, Budweiser's sponsorship of the FA Cup benefits all 763 teams, not just those who make it to Wembley.

 

Sponsors attracted to speedway because of the GPs?

 

How many SGP sponsors (many of which are tourist boards or GP suppliers in some way) also sponsor domestic teams or competitions?

[iris123]

Incidental spinoffs (probably only amounting to few hundred euros) through geographical promixity is not really a strong argument that the SGP is beneficial to domestic speedway. Yes, improvements to the GP stadiums could be construed as beneficial, but the question is who's paying for these and how do they benefit all the other tracks?

 

Conversely, Test and ODI cricket revenues benefit all 18 first counties, as well as the 20 minor counties (and Scotland, Ireland, Holland and Denmark for that matter), not just those grounds staging the matches. Similarly, Budweiser's sponsorship of the FA Cup benefits all 763 teams, not just those who make it to Wembley.

 

 

 

How many SGP sponsors (many of which are tourist boards or GP suppliers in some way) also sponsor domestic teams or competitions?

You are just picking two examples,neither of which is a world championship as far as my limited knowledge of cricket goes.And one,the FA Cup is just benefiting national teams from a national competition.Not really comparable is it? .But i bet the Hamburg Freezers don't gain any financial benefit from either the Ice Hockey world championships or the Stanley Cup.Do any rowing clubs benefit from the Rowing world championships or any cycling club in England benefit from the Cycling world championships?Or any Basketball teams benefit from the Basketball WC?

Edited April 3, 2012 by iris123

[The Know]

Incidental spinoffs (probably only amounting to few hundred euros) through geographical promixity is not really a strong argument that the SGP is beneficial to domestic speedway. Yes, improvements to the GP stadiums could be construed as beneficial, but the question is who's paying for these and how do they benefit all the other tracks?

 

Conversely, Test and ODI cricket revenues benefit all 18 first counties, as well as the 20 minor counties (and Scotland, Ireland, Holland and Denmark for that matter), not just those grounds staging the matches. Similarly, Budweiser's sponsorship of the FA Cup benefits all 763 teams, not just those who make it to Wembley.

 

 

 

How many SGP sponsors (many of which are tourist boards or GP suppliers in some way) also sponsor domestic teams or competitions?

 

we did, poole / reading / peterbro / ipo / weymouth / and some more i have forgotten no doudt plus loads a young english riders.

[Humphrey Appleby]

You are just picking two examples,neither of which is a world championship as far as my limited knowledge of cricket goes.

 

Well okay then, the ICC made something like USD 105 million from the World Twenty20 Cup, paid out USD 30 million in organisational costs (which presumably includes player wages), and then distributed USD 70 million of that directly to its member boards (e.g. the ECB) as well as funded a number of lower level international competitions.

 

But i bet the Hamburg Freezers don't gain any financial benefit from either the Ice Hockey world championships or the Stanley Cup.

 

The Stanley Cup is effectively a domestic competition, but as far as I understand the NHL pays several million dollars per year to the IIHF to compensate teams who lose players to it. In addition, the NHL in common with most other major league sports in North America supports lower level competitions in various ways (which BTW is why they're never short of players).

 

Does BSI or even the FIM do any of this?

 

Do any rowing clubs benefit from the Rowing world championships or any cycling club in England benefit from the Cycling world championships?Or any Basketball teams benefit from the Basketball WC?

 

They quite possibly do, even if it's at the level of facilities being funded or administrative costs of competitions being met.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Humphrey Appleby

[waiheke1]

Given that BSI pay a fee to FIM, isn't it the FIM money that should be passed on to speedway - either to national federations for discretionary use, to the clubs, or into approved training programmes?

If that's not happenning, maybe Speedway should form an independent (from FIM) governing body, to whom BSI monies would go (preumably this would have to wait until the end of the current contract), Is there any benefit to Speedway from affiliation with FIM?

[PHILIPRISING]

Slightly off topic but not important enough for a thread of it`s own-Philip do you know if the FIM/IMG/BSI have for this season a monitor in the referee`s box so he can watch for uneven starting gate tapes rising or has the poor old jury president got to stand on the centre green with walkie-talkie in hand.

 

THE referee has had a monitor in his box for a long time but the camera angle doesn't always give him a ideal view of the tapes and, of course, he cannot ask for a replay until the race is over. The FIM are looking at various options but the starting gate as we know it has certainly stood the test of time and it was only a couple of instances last year that brought it into profile.

 

However, I wouldn't be surprised to see an improved version in operation at GPs in the not too distant future. But there is always a danger that you can get too technical with these things and as a result they are more likely to malfunction.

 

Given that BSI pay a fee to FIM, isn't it the FIM money that should be passed on to speedway - either to national federations for discretionary use, to the clubs, or into approved training programmes?

If that's not happenning, maybe Speedway should form an independent (from FIM) governing body, to whom BSI monies would go (preumably this would have to wait until the end of the current contract), Is there any benefit to Speedway from affiliation with FIM?

 

THAT'S an old chestnut but you have to remember that in most countries other than the UK domestic speedway is actually under the control of the national federation which is in turn affiliated to the FIM.

 

I think I am right in saying that track racing is the second biggest contributor to the FIM's coffers what with income from BSI, riders' licences, inscription fees and so on but at the end of the day it is the federations that determine how that money is spent or allocated.

 

HUMPHREY, we know you are not the biggest fan or BSI or indeed IMG and that's okay but why do you may a sly innuendo like where speedway is 'supposedly' shown on TV. The countries and TV networks that take the GP are easily verified. There is no supposedly about it.

 

ON a bit of a roll ... just got back from New Zealand.

 

BY the way, don't think there is any appetite or intention to increase the number of GPs in Europe. And Poland has already suffered a league wipe-out when the 2010 GP in Croatia was rained-off and staged the following day. But the Poles have flexibility given that they own their own stadiums and have spare dates on their calendars. I really don't see this conflict between GP rounds and the Polish clubs that Humphrey envisages.