Peter Craven Is He The Top Brit Ever?

[chunky]

Just look at the result of the 1949 World Final with not only an English World Champion but 6 Englishmen in the top 7. Not much chance of that ever happening again.

 

While I agree with that assessment, it is a little unfair when one considers the limited opportunities for non-Commonwealth riders back then.

 

Steve

[Split]

While I agree with that assessment, it is a little unfair when one considers the limited opportunities for non-Commonwealth riders back then.

 

Steve

 

Yes, that's quite true and it's strange that a Dane, Morian Hansen rode in the first ever World Final in1936.

[fatface]

 

I dis-regard longtrack, as in my view it s adifferent sport (I wouldn't include Karl Maier as one of the great speeedway riders of the 80s for example).

As I said above, Lee's performance on World finals is certainly at least on a par with PC.

Pc won more BLRC's (albeit with home advantage), Lee more British titless, and I would say then won roughly comparable number of major World Championship qualifiying meetings (you mention Lee's commonwealth title, but ignore PC's winning 2 Inter-continental finals's to Lee's one). So, I believe in individual meetings, their records are almost in-separable (under a GP system I happen to believe PC would have won two world titles to Lee's one, but a similarly valid argument could be made 2-1 in Lee's favour).

 

However, PC won 4 World Pair titles (with 4 different partners!) and 5 WTC's (including three maximums in a row!). Lee won only 2 WTC. Obviously on the WTC front PC had the advantage of being part of a stronger team, but Lee's record (even if you go on points scored rather than titles) is simply not as good. Pc won three of his World Pair titles in the 80s (i.e. when he was past his best). Lee only represented England once and perfomed well, however I'd suggest the reason Lee wasn't picked more often was Pc's superior team riding.

 

Pc at his peak averaged over 11 in the BL (threshold for BL greatness in that era?) - I don't believe Lee ever did.

 

So, looking at the above, I rank PC ahead of Lee not because of his achievements as an inidiviudal, but his success in team events where he made decisive contributions.

 

It's a well expressed view above and one that I concur with. An absolute peak Lee and an absolute peak Collins is a very difficult one to separate. Indeed if we were judging all the greats merely at their absolutely top notch best, then these two are right at the very top. Arguably even better than Mauger. But you have to take into account longevity and in that regard PC trumps Lee. PC scored a maximum in the 1973 WTC final and in 1984 he won the World Pairs*. That's 12 years at world class level. Lee can claim 7 years at best - and that's being kind after a poor 1982.

 

* footage from this final is very rare, but there is an absolute vintage moment from PC when he outfoxes Erik Gundersen for a critical point

Edited March 24, 2012 by falcace

[stratton]

It's a well expressed view above and one that I concur with. An absolute peak Lee and an absolute peak Collins is a very difficult one to separate. Indeed if we were judging all the greats merely at their absolutely top notch best, then these two are right at the very top. Arguably even better than Mauger. But you have to take into account longevity and in that regard PC trumps Lee. PC scored a maximum in the 1973 WTC final and in 1984 he won the World Pairs*. That's 12 years at world class level. Lee can claim 7 years at best - and that's being kind after a poor 1982.

 

* footage from this final is very rare, but there is an absolute vintage moment from PC when he outfoxes Erik Gundersen for a critical point

Great post falcace i have never really thought of it but you are right PC and Lee on any going day would be a match for most anybody?Did i think Collins and Lee were as good as Penhall or Nielsen YES in my opinion they were.If you judge on longevity and over a period achievements thats a different matter .Out of the four i mentioned Nielsen,Collins, Lee,Penhall at there BEST Lee and Penhall would for me be the better it is hard thou. Edited March 24, 2012 by sidney

[waiheke1]

Great post falcace i have never really thought of it but you are right PC and Lee on any going day would be a match for most anybody?Did i think Collins and Lee were as good as Penhall or Nielsen YES in my opinion they were.If you judge on longevity and over a period achievements thats a different matter .Out of the four i mentioned Nielsen,Collins, Lee,Penhall at there BEST Lee and Penhall would for me be the better it is hard thou.

If you put them at their best in a one-off final I'd be inclined to agree with you. In a field of greats at their peak, Collins would struggle to pick them off from the back (unless it was held at Hyde Rd of course!). Nielsen for me blew too many world titles with one bad ride to rank quite as high as Penhall or Lee in a one-f scenario (that sais he was simply awesome at Munich in 89).

 

Under a gP system, however I'd disagree. Lee never had a season where he was utterly dominant for a whole season.Superb as he was for a period in 83, he didn't win anything of note that season. 80 he won the World Final, but that was about it in terms of big individual meetings. 79 was probably his best season, but he still had some bad meetings (e.g. OVerseas Final of WTC), and won "only" Commonwealth and Inter-continental titles.

Collins, again in a field of world class riders at their peak, would probably encounter a few too many tracks not conducive to passing to finish top.

Which leaves Penhall (81 version) and Nielsen (86 version) very very close, but I think ultimately I'd have to go with Hans - he won absolutely eveything that season,and recorded the highest EVER BL average - he may not win the most GPs, but he would be in every final.

 

It's a well expressed view above and one that I concur with. An absolute peak Lee and an absolute peak Collins is a very difficult one to separate. Indeed if we were judging all the greats merely at their absolutely top notch best, then these two are right at the very top. Arguably even better than Mauger. But you have to take into account longevity and in that regard PC trumps Lee. PC scored a maximum in the 1973 WTC final and in 1984 he won the World Pairs*. That's 12 years at world class level. Lee can claim 7 years at best - and that's being kind after a poor 1982.

to be pedantic, you'd have to say only 11 years for PC (taking out 1981 where he barely raced in the BL, and wasn't allowed to compete for England or in the WC).

[stratton]

If you put them at their best in a one-off final I'd be inclined to agree with you. In a field of greats at their peak, Collins would struggle to pick them off from the back (unless it was held at Hyde Rd of course!). Nielsen for me blew too many world titles with one bad ride to rank quite as high as Penhall or Lee in a one-f scenario (that sais he was simply awesome at Munich in 89).

 

Under a gP system, however I'd disagree. Lee never had a season where he was utterly dominant for a whole season.Superb as he was for a period in 83, he didn't win anything of note that season. 80 he won the World Final, but that was about it in terms of big individual meetings. 79 was probably his best season, but he still had some bad meetings (e.g. OVerseas Final of WTC), and won "only" Commonwealth and Inter-continental titles.

Collins, again in a field of world class riders at their peak, would probably encounter a few too many tracks not conducive to passing to finish top.

Which leaves Penhall (81 version) and Nielsen (86 version) very very close, but I think ultimately I'd have to go with Hans - he won absolutely eveything that season,and recorded the highest EVER BL average - he may not win the most GPs, but he would be in every final.

 

 

to be pedantic, you'd have to say only 11 years for PC (taking out 1981 where he barely raced in the BL, and wasn't allowed to compete for England or in the WC).

Nielsen hand on heart i have had to change my opinion of him.I never really rated him, was always top class but i didnt think he would go on and achieve what he did.Two things for me swung it mentally (like Jason and Gollob) really had belief in themselves and got to there goal in the end Brunoesque.Nielsen also went from being a gater to someone who at times was really exciting Hyde rd in the Mauger meeting springs to mind.Nielsen would he go down as the MOST or one of the most consistent world performers of all time.?Now after Hans i never judge riders to early, people progress at different rates and timescale.I know we are on about a different level,. but Auty is one i have always rated and for whatever reason things havent quite clicked..This year has started brightly so shows things can change, Barker is another a long way to go but shows he can at times compete with the best.

[chunky]

If you put them at their best in a one-off final I'd be inclined to agree with you. In a field of greats at their peak, Collins would struggle to pick them off from the back (unless it was held at Hyde Rd of course!).

 

Sorry, but I have to disagree. Sure, PC wasn't perfect, and didn't do it all the time, but only a couple of days ago, I was going through some videos on tube, and looking back, I'm embarrassed to say that I'd forgotten just how good PC really was. It wasn't just at Hyde Rd.

 

Steve

[waiheke1]

Sorry, but I have to disagree. Sure, PC wasn't perfect, and didn't do it all the time, but only a couple of days ago, I was going through some videos on tube, and looking back, I'm embarrassed to say that I'd forgotten just how good PC really was. It wasn't just at Hyde Rd.

 

Steve

 

Steve, my post was in no way intended to denigrate PC, who is one of my five favourite riders of all time, and in my view the greatest Brit of all time. I've recently re-watched the 76 World Final, and his victories from the back in his first two rides were superb. Also, PC was not a terrible gater - for example the 77 World Final he manged 5 good gates, the 80 World Pairs final he made the gate pretty much every ride.

However - pick a field of 16 all time greats at their peak, and PC would be at best the 15th best gater in the field. Overtaking one ATG in a race is hard enough, to pass 2 or 3 would be nigh on impossible. that's why, IMHO, he would likely finish lower down the field in such a hypothtical meeting as those other riders.

Put together an ATG Brit final and i would be a different story, PC would be more competitive from the gate, and would be one of the three rides (along with Lee and the other PC) fighting for the title. That said, its worth noting that his Brit final record in the 70s was arguably ranked only 3rd, behind Lee and Louis.

[stratton]

Steve, my post was in no way intended to denigrate PC, who is one of my five favourite riders of all time, and in my view the greatest Brit of all time. I've recently re-watched the 76 World Final, and his victories from the back in his first two rides were superb. Also, PC was not a terrible gater - for example the 77 World Final he manged 5 good gates, the 80 World Pairs final he made the gate pretty much every ride.

However - pick a field of 16 all time greats at their peak, and PC would be at best the 15th best gater in the field. Overtaking one ATG in a race is hard enough, to pass 2 or 3 would be nigh on impossible. that's why, IMHO, he would likely finish lower down the field in such a hypothtical meeting as those other riders.

Put together an ATG Brit final and i would be a different story, PC would be more competitive from the gate, and would be one of the three rides (along with Lee and the other PC) fighting for the title. That said, its worth noting that his Brit final record in the 70s was arguably ranked only 3rd, behind Lee and Louis.

I would have to say P.C was a poor gater, what i see of him generally even against lesser riders he had to pick off from the back on a regular basis.I am sure at hyde rd he knew he could pass because the track was special for me at his PCs peak Mauger and Olsen were the only two who could beat him on a 1out of 3 basis at hyde rd.

[waiheke1]

I would have to say P.C was a poor gater, what i see of him generally even against lesser riders he had to pick off from the back on a regular basis.I am sure at hyde rd he knew he could pass because the track was special for me at his PCs peak Mauger and Olsen were the only two who could beat him on a 1out of 3 basis at hyde rd.

I'm certainly not saying he was a consistently good starter, I watched enough of him at Hyde Rd to see him have to take the worst as well as the best from the back. However, you don't win world titles without being able to put together at least some good starts on the day (another example would be Jan O) - perhaps the difference between say himself and the mighty Mort, who just couldn't gate to save himself!

would have liked to have seen a peak PC take on a peak Kenny Carter at Hyde Rd, Kenny was the best visting rider in the 80s, I think I only saw Pc beat him once (excluding ef/ex tapes)- but of course Pc was past his best by then.

[stratton]

I'm certainly not saying he was a consistently good starter, I watched enough of him at Hyde Rd to see him have to take the worst as well as the best from the back. However, you don't win world titles without being able to put together at least some good starts on the day (another example would be Jan O) - perhaps the difference between say himself and the mighty Mort, who just couldn't gate to save himself!

would have liked to have seen a peak PC take on a peak Kenny Carter at Hyde Rd, Kenny was the best visting rider in the 80s, I think I only saw Pc beat him once (excluding ef/ex tapes)- but of course Pc was past his best by then.

I see Kenny win his B.L.R.Championships and he would of been a real force there if he was no 1 AT B.V.For me thou he never met or beat a peak P.C ever and i dont see him ever beating a peak pc on a regular basis not at hyde rd.I always have that memory of Mort picking Kenny off for fun in the NRC at belle vue thats what i envisage a 1974-79 PC doing too.People forget Mort a special rider one of the few who could BEAT and give a Nielsen a run for his money at anytime.That pass of Morts to take Carter is one of the best passes ever i wish i could put the link up but me laptop is dodgy.

[waiheke1]

here you go Sidney http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=excw4fGxVbY. Also, mighty more smashing the track record in the same meeting.

to be fair though, I'd say Mort had "only" about a 50% head to head record against KC, and I think in the BLRC he had an 0-3 record, the two of them (along with Eric) would be the three best riders of Hyde Rd i the 80s in my view.

If you saw KC beat PC in a BLRC, that must have been 1980, at a time when PC was still one of the top4 riders in the world (along with Jessup, Lee and Penhall), while Kenny was a young talent yet to establish himself as an England regular - so I'd argue PC was closer to his peak than KC was.

Worth noting that in the 70s Olsen actually had a better BLRC record at hyde rd than PC. If you could line up all the greats of the 70s/80s in one meeting at Hyde Rd, Mauger, Olsen and Pc would have to be the three favourties, but KC, Gundersen, Nieslen, Mort and Penhall would all be well capable of taking out the meeting, and the likes of Lee, Michanek, S Moran, Ross would all be competitive too.

[stratton]

here you go Sidney http://www.youtube.c...h?v=excw4fGxVbY. Also, mighty more smashing the track record in the same meeting.

to be fair though, I'd say Mort had "only" about a 50% head to head record against KC, and I think in the BLRC he had an 0-3 record, the two of them (along with Eric) would be the three best riders of Hyde Rd i the 80s in my view.

If you saw KC beat PC in a BLRC, that must have been 1980, at a time when PC was still one of the top4 riders in the world (along with Jessup, Lee and Penhall), while Kenny was a young talent yet to establish himself as an England regular - so I'd argue PC was closer to his peak than KC was.

Worth noting that in the 70s Olsen actually had a better BLRC record at hyde rd than PC. If you could line up all the greats of the 70s/80s in one meeting at Hyde Rd, Mauger, Olsen and Pc would have to be the three favourties, but KC, Gundersen, Nieslen, Mort and Penhall would all be well capable of taking out the meeting, and the likes of Lee, Michanek, S Moran, Ross would all be competitive too.

Thanks for that great race, what a track the best and thats after going to Blunsdon for years a great circuit to.Carter really liked watching him race was unlucky i know we harp on about PC and Lee but he was good things happened horribly as we know so he couldnt prove how great he could of been. He put bums on seats thats for sure and i think he would of loved the gps thing that stuck out for me about him he was single minded and cared nothing for reputations record dosent suggest it but he for me was a great rider.