Peter Craven Is He The Top Brit Ever?

[Custom House Kid]

I think the opposite can also be true, and we can underestimate recent sports people. Matthews I would say would not be in the top 20 footballers of all time. Of players since 80, I think you'd have to include Platini and (fat) Ronaldo as well in the top 20, as well as the threee you mention. Additionally, I'd say the likes of Xavi, C Ronaldo, Van Basten, Gullit, Romario, Zico, Ronaldinho, Dalglish, Baresi would not be that far outside it.

 

I'd say there'd be about 11 "nailed on": Pele, Maradonna, Messi, Best , Cruff, Puskas, De Stefano, Garincha, Beckenbauer, Ronaldo, Eusebio. Then the likes of Jairzinho, Zizinho, Yashin, Didi, Muller, Meazza, Hidegkuti, Edwards, Sindelar and a host of others (including the recent player s have names above) wothy of consideration for the remaining places.

 

No mention of Bobby Moore?

[stratton]

I think the opposite can also be true, and we can underestimate recent sports people. Matthews I would say would not be in the top 20 footballers of all time. Of players since 80, I think you'd have to include Platini and (fat) Ronaldo as well in the top 20, as well as the threee you mention. Additionally, I'd say the likes of Xavi, C Ronaldo, Van Basten, Gullit, Romario, Zico, Ronaldinho, Dalglish, Baresi would not be that far outside it.

 

I'd say there'd be about 11 "nailed on": Pele, Maradonna, Messi, Best , Cruff, Puskas, De Stefano, Garincha, Beckenbauer, Ronaldo, Eusebio. Then the likes of Jairzinho, Zizinho, Yashin, Didi, Muller, Meazza, Hidegkuti, Edwards, Sindelar and a host of others (including the recent player s have names above) wothy of consideration for the remaining places.

.

A few there you have named i would disagree Ronaldinho,certainly no way .Where is Keegan(european player of the year twice) Charlton, Moore,Rummengge, difficult i know alot of them from 1980 wouldnt be knowhere near a alltime top 20 for me top 50 yes.

[waiheke1]

Is this simply now a list of all British riders rather than ones of any particular note

I think we have three categories of riders being names. Firstly, genuine alltime World greats (PC x 2, Lee, arguably Farndon etc.)

Secondly, great British riders (Boococks, Morton, Wigg etc.) - riders who were short of the very top level, but were World Class riders who excelled at both international and domestic levels. Dependent on your ""thresholdd for greatness" someone like Jack Parker may belong to the first group or the second group.

Finally, you have a heap of riders being names who were good riders - solid heat leaders, decent at international level, with the occasional higher achievement (e.g. the likes of the Grahame brothers, Phil Collins, Reg Wilson etc.) again - some judgement between who belongs in the second and third categories e.g. Les Collins, Jeremy doncaster some would argue as being in the "greats" other in the "goods."

Of course it is all a matter of opinion and there is no definitive answer to the question. Everyone will have their own views and, like you, I cannot argue with you if you think that Peter Craven etc. are the top three.

 

The only thing that generally concerns me with this type of question is that there is always a skewing to the more recent (in this case) riders, though it could be best footballer ever, best album ever, best band ever. Which is only natural because people know what they know and older "greats" fade as the people who remember them fade. In thirty or forty years time I wonder if Peter Craven will make anyone's top three.....

I think most of these type of lists has a biad to post-war, partly because of that being the maximum life-span of most people posting, but also because the World Championship (or World Cup for football) is the key barometer of success - so War time (and pre-wartime where the titles were in their infancy) greats are generally forgotten. So, I wouldn't imagine Peter Craven sliding into the "obscurity" of say Tom Farndon, but he may be to some extent overlooked in favour of more rcent riders - however, Peter Collins is unlikely to suffer the same "fate" becuase the advent of video footage of a decent quality means that fans of future generation will be able to witness him in his pomp. the "youtube" age certainly has its advanytages oin that regard!

 

Think those three are pretty much the correct top three in regards best ever Brits, and two of them were Belle Vue Aces as well!!!!!

 

Think I would have Collins and Craven at 1 and 2 with Lee marginally third.

Personally, I think Collins has to be ahead of Lee. World Final records were pretty equal, however PC had a much better record in the World Pairs,and World Team Cup, a better BL record and was unparallelled as a team rider.

Interestingly enough, I think both Collins and Lee underachieved compared to their ability. Compare them for example to Briggs and Maiuger, Olsen and Nielsen, and they were arguably much the greater natural talemts - however achieved considerably less success. Co-incidence, or something in the British speedway rider s mindset? Perhaps having to come over to a foreign country ade the Kiwis and Danes mentally tougher, or they had a better "work ethic" or...?

 

No mention of Bobby Moore?

tbh, I wouldn't consider him in the top 20 - possibly beacuse of a bias towards attacking players- but realistically to name all those who might potentially be considered in the top 20 I'd have had to name 200 players! Certainly he'd be in my top 10 British players, and certainly top 50 world, but not my top 20.

 

A few there you have named i would disagree Ronaldinho,certainly no way .Where is Keegan(european player of the year twice) Charlton, Moore,Rummengge, difficult i know alot of them from 1980 wouldnt be knowhere near a alltime top 20 for me top 50 yes.

Interseting you mention Rummenige here,but not in your earlier list of post 1980 players. Again, I could have named Keegan (though his lack of World Cup appearances certainly would count against him) and Charlton but while these I would consider amongst the great British players, I certainly wouldn't rate them top 20 of all time (top 50 probably for Charlton). Ronaldinho is an intersting one - at his best he was absolutely brilliant, twice World player of the year and a World Cup winner- but obviously he then declined in the years when he should have still been at his peak (a Mike Lee of the football world?)

Edited March 15, 2012 by waihekeaces1

[chunky]

I think we have three categories of riders being names. Firstly, genuine alltime World greats (PC x 2, Lee, arguably Farndon etc.)

Secondly, great British riders (Boococks, Morton, Wigg etc.) - riders who were short of the very top level, but were World Class riders who excelled at both international and domestic levels. Dependent on your ""thresholdd for greatness" someone like Jack Parker may belong to the first group or the second group.

Finally, you have a heap of riders being names who were good riders - solid heat leaders, decent at international level, with the occasional higher achievement (e.g. the likes of the Grahame brothers, Phil Collins, Reg Wilson etc.) again - some judgement between who belongs in the second and third categories e.g. Les Collins, Jeremy doncaster some would argue as being in the "greats" other in the "goods."

Interesting that you should say that; I've actually been thinking about compiling such a list, although I would add an extra level.

 

Obviously, there would be some who could fit into a couple of groups, but starting off, I would say that the "elite" group would be :

 

Peter Collins, Peter Craven, Michael Lee, Tom Farndon, Jack Parker.

 

Second Level

Nigel Boocock, Eric Boocock, Ray Wilson, Malcolm Simmons, Dave Jessup, Tommy Price, Freddie Williams, Ken McKinlay, Kenny Carter, Chris Morton, Simon Wigg, Mark Loram, Brian Crutcher, Split Waterman, John Louis, Gary Havelock.

 

Third Level

Bill Kitchen, Jeremy Doncaster, Les Collins, Kelvin Tatum, Trevor Hedge, Martin Ashby, Terry Betts, Jim McMillan, Norman Hunter, Norman Parker, Arthur Forrest, Ron How, Frank Charles, Chris Louis.

 

Fourth Level

Any number of riders such as Phil Collins, the Grahame brothers, Jeff Lloyd, Alan Hunt, Scott Nicholls, Roger Frogley, Eric Boothroyd etc.

 

Steve

 

PS Apologies if I missed any obvious names from the top three!!!

[norbold]

Good list, Chunky. I have reservations about the placing of some of the riders but as we keep saying it's all a matter of opinion and I wouldn't disagree too violently with what you say.

 

I think the only obvious name you have missed out is Eric Langton, who would certainly be at least a Second Level in my opinion. I would also have Ginger Lees in at probably third level.

Edited March 15, 2012 by norbold

[stratton]

I think we have three categories of riders being names. Firstly, genuine alltime World greats (PC x 2, Lee, arguably Farndon etc.)

Secondly, great British riders (Boococks, Morton, Wigg etc.) - riders who were short of the very top level, but were World Class riders who excelled at both international and domestic levels. Dependent on your ""thresholdd for greatness" someone like Jack Parker may belong to the first group or the second group.

Finally, you have a heap of riders being names who were good riders - solid heat leaders, decent at international level, with the occasional higher achievement (e.g. the likes of the Grahame brothers, Phil Collins, Reg Wilson etc.) again - some judgement between who belongs in the second and third categories e.g. Les Collins, Jeremy doncaster some would argue as being in the "greats" other in the "goods."

 

I think most of these type of lists has a biad to post-war, partly because of that being the maximum life-span of most people posting, but also because the World Championship (or World Cup for football) is the key barometer of success - so War time (and pre-wartime where the titles were in their infancy) greats are generally forgotten. So, I wouldn't imagine Peter Craven sliding into the "obscurity" of say Tom Farndon, but he may be to some extent overlooked in favour of more rcent riders - however, Peter Collins is unlikely to suffer the same "fate" becuase the advent of video footage of a decent quality means that fans of future generation will be able to witness him in his pomp. the "youtube" age certainly has its advanytages oin that regard!

 

 

Personally, I think Collins has to be ahead of Lee. World Final records were pretty equal, however PC had a much better record in the World Pairs,and World Team Cup, a better BL record and was unparallelled as a team rider.

Interestingly enough, I think both Collins and Lee underachieved compared to their ability. Compare them for example to Briggs and Maiuger, Olsen and Nielsen, and they were arguably much the greater natural talemts - however achieved considerably less success. Co-incidence, or something in the British speedway rider s mindset? Perhaps having to come over to a foreign country ade the Kiwis and Danes mentally tougher, or they had a better "work ethic" or...?

 

 

tbh, I wouldn't consider him in the top 20 - possibly beacuse of a bias towards attacking players- but realistically to name all those who might potentially be considered in the top 20 I'd have had to name 200 players! Certainly he'd be in my top 10 British players, and certainly top 50 world, but not my top 20.

 

 

Interseting you mention Rummenige here,but not in your earlier list of post 1980 players. Again, I could have named Keegan (though his lack of World Cup appearances certainly would count against him) and Charlton but while these I would consider amongst the great British players, I certainly wouldn't rate them top 20 of all time (top 50 probably for Charlton). Ronaldinho is an intersting one - at his best he was absolutely brilliant, twice World player of the year and a World Cup winner- but obviously he then declined in the years when he should have still been at his peak (a Mike Lee of the football world?)

Really interested by your knowledge and opinion both my kids who are football mad both say i dont give recent present day players anough credit.In your list a top 50 you would have alot of 1970s onwards players in it but it is very hard.Looking at a different angle a few players who i have seen live but wouldnt be in a top 30 are CURRIE, BOWLES,LETISSIER,HODDLE,BRADY,D.THOMAS,HEIGHWAY,D.CLEMENT, I.GILLARD.COWANS,MCDERMOTT. ECT)

 

Interesting that you should say that; I've actually been thinking about compiling such a list, although I would add an extra level.

 

Obviously, there would be some who could fit into a couple of groups, but starting off, I would say that the "elite" group would be :

 

Peter Collins, Peter Craven, Michael Lee, Tom Farndon, Jack Parker.

 

Second Level

Nigel Boocock, Eric Boocock, Ray Wilson, Malcolm Simmons, Dave Jessup, Tommy Price, Freddie Williams, Ken McKinlay, Kenny Carter, Chris Morton, Simon Wigg, Mark Loram, Brian Crutcher, Split Waterman, John Louis, Gary Havelock.

 

Third Level

Bill Kitchen, Jeremy Doncaster, Les Collins, Kelvin Tatum, Trevor Hedge, Martin Ashby, Terry Betts, Jim McMillan, Norman Hunter, Norman Parker, Arthur Forrest, Ron How, Frank Charles, Chris Louis.

 

Fourth Level

Any number of riders such as Phil Collins, the Grahame brothers, Jeff Lloyd, Alan Hunt, Scott Nicholls, Roger Frogley, Eric Boothroyd etc.

 

Steve

 

PS Apologies if I missed any obvious names from the top three!!!

Great list and are all spot on really my only change would be that Kichen, Forrest, Ashby would have to be in the 2nd level thats only going on i believe some you have named they are on par with.

[chunky]

Good list, Chunky. I have reservations about the placing of some of the riders but as we keep saying it's all a matter of opinion and I wouldn't disagree too violently with what you say.

 

I think the only obvious name you have missed out is Eric Langton, who would certainly be at least a Second Level in my opinion. I would also have Ginger Lees in at probably third level.

 

I'VE ALREADY APOLOGISED!!! Seriously though, I don't know how I forgot Eric Langton, and I was thinking about Ginger Lees at the third level.

 

Sidney : I did mean to put Arthur Forrest in level two...

 

It was the early hours of the morning when I did that, so that's my excuse...

 

Steve

[stratton]

I'VE ALREADY APOLOGISED!!! Seriously though, I don't know how I forgot Eric Langton, and I was thinking about Ginger Lees at the third level.

 

Sidney : I did mean to put Arthur Forrest in level two...

 

It was the early hours of the morning when I did that, so that's my excuse...

 

Steve

I wondered about Langton you have mentioned him before chunky Ashby i know a underachiever. But he for me is up with the Boococks Louis,and others even though his cv dosent look that healthy all great names though.

[chunky]

Okay, here is an updated list :

 

Level One

Peter Craven, Peter Collins, Michael Lee, Tom Farndon, Jack Parker.

 

Level Two

Nigel Boocock, Eric Boocock, Ray Wilson, Malcolm Simmons, Dave Jessup, Arthur Forrest, Tommy Price, Freddie Williams, Ken McKinlay, Kenny Carter, Chris Morton, Simon Wigg, Mark Loram, Brian Crutcher, Split Waterman, John Louis, Gary Havelock, Eric Langton.

 

Level Three

Bill Kitchen, Jeremy Doncaster, Les Collins, Kelvin Tatum, Trevor Hedge, Martin Ashby, Terry Betts, Jim McMillan, Norman Hunter, Norman Parker, Ron How, Frank Charles, John Louis, Jim Kempster, Martin Dugard, Gordon Kennett, Ginger Lees, John Davis, Dick Fisher.

 

Level Four

Any number of riders such as Phil Collins, the Grahame brothers. Jeff Lloyd, Alan Hunt, Scott Nicholls, Roger Frogley, Eric Boothroyd etc.

 

Steve

Edited March 16, 2012 by chunky

[stratton]

I think we have three categories of riders being names. Firstly, genuine alltime World greats (PC x 2, Lee, arguably Farndon etc.)

Secondly, great British riders (Boococks, Morton, Wigg etc.) - riders who were short of the very top level, but were World Class riders who excelled at both international and domestic levels. Dependent on your ""thresholdd for greatness" someone like Jack Parker may belong to the first group or the second group.

Finally, you have a heap of riders being names who were good riders - solid heat leaders, decent at international level, with the occasional higher achievement (e.g. the likes of the Grahame brothers, Phil Collins, Reg Wilson etc.) again - some judgement between who belongs in the second and third categories e.g. Les Collins, Jeremy doncaster some would argue as being in the "greats" other in the "goods."

 

I think most of these type of lists has a biad to post-war, partly because of that being the maximum life-span of most people posting, but also because the World Championship (or World Cup for football) is the key barometer of success - so War time (and pre-wartime where the titles were in their infancy) greats are generally forgotten. So, I wouldn't imagine Peter Craven sliding into the "obscurity" of say Tom Farndon, but he may be to some extent overlooked in favour of more rcent riders - however, Peter Collins is unlikely to suffer the same "fate" becuase the advent of video footage of a decent quality means that fans of future generation will be able to witness him in his pomp. the "youtube" age certainly has its advanytages oin that regard!

 

 

Personally, I think Collins has to be ahead of Lee. World Final records were pretty equal, however PC had a much better record in the World Pairs,and World Team Cup, a better BL record and was unparallelled as a team rider.

Interestingly enough, I think both Collins and Lee underachieved compared to their ability. Compare them for example to Briggs and Maiuger, Olsen and Nielsen, and they were arguably much the greater natural talemts - however achieved considerably less success. Co-incidence, or something in the British speedway rider s mindset? Perhaps having to come over to a foreign country ade the Kiwis and Danes mentally tougher, or they had a better "work ethic" or...?

 

 

tbh, I wouldn't consider him in the top 20 - possibly beacuse of a bias towards attacking players- but realistically to name all those who might potentially be considered in the top 20 I'd have had to name 200 players! Certainly he'd be in my top 10 British players, and certainly top 50 world, but not my top 20.

 

 

Interseting you mention Rummenige here,but not in your earlier list of post 1980 players. Again, I could have named Keegan (though his lack of World Cup appearances certainly would count against him) and Charlton but while these I would consider amongst the great British players, I certainly wouldn't rate them top 20 of all time (top 50 probably for Charlton). Ronaldinho is an intersting one - at his best he was absolutely brilliant, twice World player of the year and a World Cup winner- but obviously he then declined in the years when he should have still been at his peak (a Mike Lee of the football world?)

On the Lee v Collins debate it is very close between them Lee,s B.L record was pretty good also?My take is both at there best on say 10 different tracks Lee for me would be the victor.This exspecially on the smaller slicker tracks apart from Hyde rd a peak Lee would beat Collins more often than not. Lee taking P.C for 2nd on the last bend from the back in 1980 won him the title.

[The White Knight]

On the Lee v Collins debate it is very close between them Lee,s B.L record was pretty good also?My take is both at there best on say 10 different tracks Lee for me would be the victor.This exspecially on the smaller slicker tracks apart from Hyde rd a peak Lee would beat Collins more often than not. Lee taking P.C for 2nd on the last bend from the back in 1980 won him the title.

 

Still think, overall PC was the better Rider sidney. I would, only just, pick Peter ahead of Michael every time. If the chips were down - you could usually rely on Peter to come up with the goods.

 

That what it's all about though. Your opinion is as valid as mine sidney. :)

[speedy bill]

you missed Arthur Wright and Dick Fisher off the third level.

[waiheke1]

Really interested by your knowledge and opinion both my kids who are football mad both say i dont give recent present day players anough credit.In your list a top 50 you would have alot of 1970s onwards players in it but it is very hard.

 

not sure I would have a disproportionate number s of post 70s players (though given that my football knowledge would really only date back to say 1930, you'd expect at least half to be post 1970s players) - the list of post 80s playes were examples of those who could be considered, not neccesarily ones I wou;d include.

 

On the Lee v Collins debate it is very close between them Lee,s B.L record was pretty good also?My take is both at there best on say 10 different tracks Lee for me would be the victor.This exspecially on the smaller slicker tracks apart from Hyde rd a peak Lee would beat Collins more often than not. Lee taking P.C for 2nd on the last bend from the back in 1980 won him the title.

Im not sure that's the best way to compare riders though. For example, if you put Nielsen and Gundersen head to head like that, I would epxect Gunderrsen to beat Nielsen more often that not, however I rate Nielsen the greater of the two. Speedway after all is (generally) not a sport consiting of two person races. Personally, where riders are of such similar ability, I'd look at achievements to split them - and to me Collins is definitely ahead of Lee in this regard.

But, of course it's all opinions, and there is no right or wrong answer!

[stratton]

 

not sure I would have a disproportionate number s of post 70s players (though given that my football knowledge would really only date back to say 1930, you'd expect at least half to be post 1970s players) - the list of post 80s playes were examples of those who could be considered, not neccesarily ones I wou;d include.

 

 

Im not sure that's the best way to compare riders though. For example, if you put Nielsen and Gundersen head to head like that, I would epxect Gunderrsen to beat Nielsen more often that not, however I rate Nielsen the greater of the two. Speedway after all is (generally) not a sport consiting of two person races. Personally, where riders are of such similar ability, I'd look at achievements to split them - and to me Collins is definitely ahead of Lee in this regard.

But, of course it's all opinions, and there is no right or wrong answer!

Lee won a longtrack title PC didnt individually Lee would be in front won British titles Commonwealth titles endless others.Lee rode in 6 finals 1 win a 4th and two 3rds thats at least on par with p.c isnt it? if not better.

[waiheke1]

Lee won a longtrack title PC didnt individually Lee would be in front won British titles Commonwealth titles endless others.Lee rode in 6 finals 1 win a 4th and two 3rds thats at least on par with p.c isnt it? if not better.

I dis-regard longtrack, as in my view it s adifferent sport (I wouldn't include Karl Maier as one of the great speeedway riders of the 80s for example).

As I said above, Lee's performance on World finals is certainly at least on a par with PC.

Pc won more BLRC's (albeit with home advantage), Lee more British titless, and I would say then won roughly comparable number of major World Championship qualifiying meetings (you mention Lee's commonwealth title, but ignore PC's winning 2 Inter-continental finals's to Lee's one). So, I believe in individual meetings, their records are almost in-separable (under a GP system I happen to believe PC would have won two world titles to Lee's one, but a similarly valid argument could be made 2-1 in Lee's favour).

 

However, PC won 4 World Pair titles (with 4 different partners!) and 5 WTC's (including three maximums in a row!). Lee won only 2 WTC. Obviously on the WTC front PC had the advantage of being part of a stronger team, but Lee's record (even if you go on points scored rather than titles) is simply not as good. Pc won three of his World Pair titles in the 80s (i.e. when he was past his best). Lee only represented England once and perfomed well, however I'd suggest the reason Lee wasn't picked more often was Pc's superior team riding.

 

Pc at his peak averaged over 11 in the BL (threshold for BL greatness in that era?) - I don't believe Lee ever did.

 

So, looking at the above, I rank PC ahead of Lee not because of his achievements as an inidiviudal, but his success in team events where he made decisive contributions.

[stratton]

I dis-regard longtrack, as in my view it s adifferent sport (I wouldn't include Karl Maier as one of the great speeedway riders of the 80s for example).

As I said above, Lee's performance on World finals is certainly at least on a par with PC.

Pc won more BLRC's (albeit with home advantage), Lee more British titless, and I would say then won roughly comparable number of major World Championship qualifiying meetings (you mention Lee's commonwealth title, but ignore PC's winning 2 Inter-continental finals's to Lee's one). So, I believe in individual meetings, their records are almost in-separable (under a GP system I happen to believe PC would have won two world titles to Lee's one, but a similarly valid argument could be made 2-1 in Lee's favour).

 

However, PC won 4 World Pair titles (with 4 different partners!) and 5 WTC's (including three maximums in a row!). Lee won only 2 WTC. Obviously on the WTC front PC had the advantage of being part of a stronger team, but Lee's record (even if you go on points scored rather than titles) is simply not as good. Pc won three of his World Pair titles in the 80s (i.e. when he was past his best). Lee only represented England once and perfomed well, however I'd suggest the reason Lee wasn't picked more often was Pc's superior team riding.

 

Pc at his peak averaged over 11 in the BL (threshold for BL greatness in that era?) - I don't believe Lee ever did.

 

So, looking at the above, I rank PC ahead of Lee not because of his achievements as an inidiviudal, but his success in team events where he made decisive contributions.

Great points from you i do include the Longtrack (ask Ivan)? team events i was not including those saying that was there a better team rider than PC.Probably not there records individually are identical credit though PC did reach 8 finals.Also PC was never on the threshold of greatness in the B.L he never ever had Olsen and Mauger,s total measure so he was never dominant.The few months of 1983 that version of Lee in my opinion would of beaten the 11 point average year of Collins Lee at times was awesome the golden helmet v Carter the pride of the east and that pairs meeting at Halifax come to mind.

[chunky]

I've just added Dick Fisher and John Davis to level three.

 

Steve

[waiheke1]

Great points from you i do include the Longtrack (ask Ivan)? team events i was not including those saying that was there a better team rider than PC.Probably not there records individually are identical credit though PC did reach 8 finals.Also PC was never on the threshold of greatness in the B.L he never ever had Olsen and Mauger,s total measure so he was never dominant.The few months of 1983 that version of Lee in my opinion would of beaten the 11 point average year of Collins Lee at times was awesome the golden helmet v Carter the pride of the east and that pairs meeting at Halifax come to mind.

If you include longtrack, then surely Wiggy is greater than them both?

Surely you have to include performances/titles in the England colours, given that Speedway is just as much a team sport as an individual one (even if the most prized title is the indvidual crown).

Anyway, as I said before there's no right and wrong in this debate, it's not like you're claiming Keegan to be better than Daliglish in which case there definitely would be a right and wrong

 

Really interested by your knowledge and opinion both my kids who are football mad both say i dont give recent present day players anough credit.In your list a top 50 you would have alot of 1970s onwards players in it but it is very hard.Looking at a different angle a few players who i have seen live but wouldnt be in a top 30 are CURRIE, BOWLES,LETISSIER,HODDLE,BRADY,D.THOMAS,HEIGHWAY,D.CLEMENT, I.GILLARD.COWANS,MCDERMOTT. ECT)

Would have loved to have seen Hoddle play live, my favourite ever English midfielder, and this from a Liverpool supporter- he still wouldn't be in my top 30 players of all time though.

 

My feeling on Lee and Collins is that it was very close hard to choose.I decided on Lee because i feel Lee,s total best was better than Peter,s best.I hazard a guess Peter,s record against Mike was better than most prob level? Lee,s record for ex) against say Nielsen ,Penhall,Gundersen,Mauger,is excellent also i wouldnt have Craven along way ahead of the other two greats.

Was Lee's record against those riders you name "excellent? In World Final's head to head clashes:

vs Penhall 1-1.

vs Mauger 1-2

vs Gundersen 1-1

vs Nielsen 1-2

 

and vs Pc 1-1

 

Certainly a very good record given that we are comparing against all time greats, but not sure you'd call it excellent?

[stratton]

If you include longtrack, then surely Wiggy is greater than them both?

Surely you have to include performances/titles in the England colours, given that Speedway is just as much a team sport as an individual one (even if the most prized title is the indvidual crown).

Anyway, as I said before there's no right and wrong in this debate, it's not like you're claiming Keegan to be better than Daliglish in which case there definitely would be a right and wrong

 

 

Would have loved to have seen Hoddle play live, my favourite ever English midfielder, and this from a Liverpool supporter- he still wouldn't be in my top 30 players of all time though.

 

 

Was Lee's record against those riders you name "excellent? In World Final's head to head clashes:

vs Penhall 1-1.

vs Mauger 1-2

vs Gundersen 1-1

vs Nielsen 1-2

 

and vs Pc 1-1

 

Certainly a very good record given that we are comparing against all time greats, but not sure you'd call it excellent?

Really i aimed that assumption Races, on actual head to head league racing (ect) individual clashes over the years.It would stack up well against any of those named also in affect his record really was say only over 9 years 1975-84 so 6 finals was pretty good going.Looking back in my mind he could of won 4 of those finals certainly not the 2 at Wembley though.Wiggy certainly the no 1 of longtrack for England Tatum had a great career to also Collins rode in a mighty longtrack era with Muller,Maier,Weisbock, Betz,Gilgenrainer all top notch.

[Split]

This is what scares me; look at all the names we can rattle off with ease, yet how many modern era (post-1990) merit inclusion? Steve

 

Just look at the result of the 1949 World Final with not only an English World Champion but 6 Englishmen in the top 7. Not much chance of that ever happening again.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Split