oldace Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Of course it is all a matter of opinion and there is no definitive answer to the question. Everyone will have their own views and, like you, I cannot argue with you if you think that Peter Craven etc. are the top three. The only thing that generally concerns me with this type of question is that there is always a skewing to the more recent (in this case) riders, though it could be best footballer ever, best album ever, best band ever. Which is only natural because people know what they know and older "greats" fade as the people who remember them fade. In thirty or forty years time I wonder if Peter Craven will make anyone's top three..... I don't think you can class Craven as recent, he has been dead 50 years next year, Collins started his career over 40 years ago. You are totally correct in that these type of polls are weighted in favour of more modern eras, and anyway comparing greatness from one era to the next rarely works. It is probably fair to say Farndon was in the ascendancy at the time of the 1935 Star Riders Final and quite likely would have gone on to achieve great things Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted March 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 I think comparing sports stars is very difficult do you go on personnal exsperience watching live with the eye?Or do you just go to the stats and build your opinion on the imformation available.I have been watching sport for 40 years and the change is unbelievable really but my opinion is class would be class in any era.English riders in recent years which makes the decision easy like someone said Craven went in 62 Collins and Lee in the 80s.Only Loram and Wigg for me would be mentioned in the real top scale of things who knows Harris hasnt finished yet and he certainly isnt finished yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) Of course it is all a matter of opinion and there is no definitive answer to the question. Everyone will have their own views and, like you, I cannot argue with you if you think that Peter Craven etc. are the top three. The only thing that generally concerns me with this type of question is that there is always a skewing to the more recent (in this case) riders, though it could be best footballer ever, best album ever, best band ever. Which is only natural because people know what they know and older "greats" fade as the people who remember them fade. In thirty or forty years time I wonder if Peter Craven will make anyone's top three..... I honestly believe that Peter Craven will STILL be talked about in twenty or thirty years - so, I think, will Peter Collins. THAT is the mark of a true - 'Great'. Edited March 8, 2012 by The White Knight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickthemuppet Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 I honestly believe that Peter Craven will STILL be talked about in twenty or thirty years - so, I think, will Peter Collins. THAT is the mark of a true - 'Great'. Unfortuneatly they will not as time passes the memory dims. Peter Craven won his second World title in 1962 which in 20 years time will be 70 years ago. Now take today how many people would name any sportsmen from 70 years ago(i.e 1942). Could anybody remember who were world champions in 1942 in any sport. Nevertheless Peter Craven was a great champion and only one of two Britain's who were world champion twice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Unfortuneatly they will not as time passes the memory dims. Peter Craven won his second World title in 1962 which in 20 years time will be 70 years ago. Now take today how many people would name any sportsmen from 70 years ago(i.e 1942). Could anybody remember who were world champions in 1942 in any sport. Nevertheless Peter Craven was a great champion and only one of two Britain's who were world champion twice What about John.L.Sullivan?Jack Johnson?Jesse Owens?etc,etc,etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 What about John.L.Sullivan?Jack Johnson?Jesse Owens?etc,etc,etc Tom Farndon? Vic Huxley? Frank Arthur? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Tom Farndon? Vic Huxley? Frank Arthur? We are talking about Tom Farndon and others (see above) sixty or seventy years after the event - why not Craven and Collins in twenty/thirty years time? We still talk about Freddie Williams too. :approve: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Tom Farndon? Someone even wrote a book about Tom.Apparently there are also books out on Jesus Christ,Tutankhamun and Saladin,although i doubt anyone can remember seeing them in action 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickthemuppet Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 What about John.L.Sullivan?Jack Johnson?Jesse Owens?etc,etc,etc Which titles did they hold in 1942 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Which titles did they hold in 1942 You asked "Now take today how many people would name any sportsmen from 70 years ago(i.e 1942)".I was showing you that sportsmen from before that date are remembered.As it is there was something a bit more important happening in the world in 1942,so i am not quite certain if any world championships were held that year...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 You asked "Now take today how many people would name any sportsmen from 70 years ago(i.e 1942)".I was showing you that sportsmen from before that date are remembered.As it is there was something a bit more important happening in the world in 1942,so i am not quite certain if any world championships were held that year...... Well, Jesse Owens was a reigning Olympic Champion, and let's not forget that a certain Mr. Wilkinson was the reigning speedway World Champion! Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 We are talking about Tom Farndon and others (see above) sixty or seventy years after the event - why not Craven and Collins in twenty/thirty years time? We still talk about Freddie Williams too. :approve: I'm not suggesting they won't be remembered, but as people fade out who actually saw them, I'm sure they will fall out of people's top tens just as, in general, apart from a few diehards like myself, the three greats from the early days I've mentioned above have done. How many people on this forum would include any of those three in their top 10 list of all time great speedway riders? Even taking iris's point, how many people would put John L Sullivan in their top 10 boxers of all time or even Jack Johnson apart from the diehards who really know the history of the sport? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted March 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 I'm not suggesting they won't be remembered, but as people fade out who actually saw them, I'm sure they will fall out of people's top tens just as, in general, apart from a few diehards like myself, the three greats from the early days I've mentioned above have done. How many people on this forum would include any of those three in their top 10 list of all time great speedway riders? Even taking iris's point, how many people would put John L Sullivan in their top 10 boxers of all time or even Jack Johnson apart from the diehards who really know the history of the sport? I dont think there is a danger of the greats being forgotten,in most sports if the word GREAT or LEGEND is used correctly there isnt that many.Examples for me my opinion only as norbold says L.Sullivan Johnson Dempsey would be in boxings all time 20 boxing greats.Joe Davis in snookers top 10 Mathews in top 20 in football.I dont know what people think? i have been watching sport for 40 years and i think we overate sportsmen or women of recent years say since 1980.In football for ex) since 1980 Zidane Maradona (a cheat cheated the public and himself), Messi are the only players for me that would be anywhere near a alltime top 20.Am i wrong is the word great bandied about to easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 How many people would put Vivian Woodward in their top 20 footballers of all time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 How many people would put Vivian Woodward in their top 20 footballers of all time? I think the legends and true greats of any era will live on long into the future. Of course people have their own favourites at any time and may list them in their own top ten at a given time but history will not remember these as true greats. Examples might be Ray Wilson or Martin Ashby from the seventies, chances are many fans of the time will consider them greats but unfortunately when the mist lifts and people are being judged on achievements alone, then history wont record them as true greats Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted March 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 I think the legends and true greats of any era will live on long into the future. Of course people have their own favourites at any time and may list them in their own top ten at a given time but history will not remember these as true greats. Examples might be Ray Wilson or Martin Ashby from the seventies, chances are many fans of the time will consider them greats but unfortunately when the mist lifts and people are being judged on achievements alone, then history wont record them as true greats Do you go on achievements silverware? or what they did for the sport generally it is so difficult.Personally a (ex) Rickardsson would be for me behind Mauger,,Briggs Fundin Olsen and Nielsen but when you look at it logically that is madness really, just my opinion more and likely it is wrong.As Oldace says can we be blinded by sentiment when analysing these things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 (edited) Looking back through our lifetime I believe we have been very privileged to witness some extraordinary sportspeople that other people, in the future, will be talking about them as past greats, like we are doing now. People like, Arton Senna, Valentino Rossi, Stephen Hendry, Mohammad Ali, Jack Nicklaus are all legends who ruled the world at their own sport. We have been able to witness this first hand and by doing so we are able to judge others against them. We have seen lots of GOOD sportspeople, but we judge them against those GREATS that we have seen. Rightly or wrongly we arrive at a conclusion, and this becomes our opinion. If we hadn’t seen Rossi we would have said Mick Doohan was the greatest or even Mike Hailwood. It doesn’t diminish their achievements, they will always remain the same, but it’s our opinion that alters. So when looking back and making judgements about the greats of the past we must remember that in their time, they will have been looked at in the same way as those mentioned above, and it is morally wrong to perceive them in any other way then as GREATS of their time. When thinking of Craven, Collins or Lee in that vane, for some reason, they all fell short of that greatness, Sure they were all very special, but they didn't achieve the true status of legends. That went to the likes of the Maugers and the Fundins. Probably, had time been different , or kinder to them, then all three, could have reached that mantel,.......... with ease. Edited March 11, 2012 by GRW123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted March 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 Looking back through our lifetime I believe we have been very privileged to witness some extraordinary sportspeople that others, in the future will be talking about, like we are doing now. People like, Arton Senna, Valentino Rossi, Stephen Hendry, Mohammad Ali, Jack Nicklaus are all legends of their sport. We have been able to witness this first hand and by doing so we are able to judge others against them. We see lots of GOOD sportspeople, but we judge them against the GREATS that we have seen. Rightly or wrongly we arrive at a conclusion, which becomes our opinion. If we hadn’t had seen Rossi we would have said Mick Doohan was the greatest or even Mike Hailwood. It doesn’t diminish their achievements, they will always remain the same, but it’s our opinion that alters. So when looking back and making judgements about the greats of the past we must remember that in their time, they will have been looked at in the same way as those mentioned above, and it is morally wrong to perceive them in any other way then as GREATS of their time. Maybe i am wrong way off, but i really think Cassius Clay/ Ali had a massive affect on money going into sport so many people have him to thank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted March 9, 2012 Report Share Posted March 9, 2012 I think the legends and true greats of any era will live on long into the future. Of course people have their own favourites at any time and may list them in their own top ten at a given time but history will not remember these as true greats. Examples might be Ray Wilson or Martin Ashby from the seventies, chances are many fans of the time will consider them greats but unfortunately when the mist lifts and people are being judged on achievements alone, then history wont record them as true greats Yes, I think that is a really good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted March 15, 2012 Report Share Posted March 15, 2012 Mathews in top 20 in football.I dont know what people think? i have been watching sport for 40 years and i think we overate sportsmen or women of recent years say since 1980.In football for ex) since 1980 Zidane Maradona (a cheat cheated the public and himself), Messi are the only players for me that would be anywhere near a alltime top 20.Am i wrong is the word great bandied about to easily. I think the opposite can also be true, and we can underestimate recent sports people. Matthews I would say would not be in the top 20 footballers of all time. Of players since 80, I think you'd have to include Platini and (fat) Ronaldo as well in the top 20, as well as the threee you mention. Additionally, I'd say the likes of Xavi, C Ronaldo, Van Basten, Gullit, Romario, Zico, Ronaldinho, Dalglish, Baresi would not be that far outside it. I'd say there'd be about 11 "nailed on": Pele, Maradonna, Messi, Best , Cruff, Puskas, De Stefano, Garincha, Beckenbauer, Ronaldo, Eusebio. Then the likes of Jairzinho, Zizinho, Yashin, Didi, Muller, Meazza, Hidegkuti, Edwards, Sindelar and a host of others (including the recent player s have names above) wothy of consideration for the remaining places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.