stratton Posted March 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 Strange, your take on this perception. You pick out a period in time that suits your cause and then suggest it’s always liked that. The dominance of the "big five" highlights a period in time when 5 brilliant riders dictated the sport. They were far superior to the other riders at that time and their success rate had nothing to do with qualifying methods, purely down to their brilliance . Now we have a SGP system that is dictated by the qualification method which creates a closed shop scenario, so again, we are getting the same riders figuring in the championship all the time. The two periods in time are miles apart and two entirely different situations. Strange. You picked out a period of the 60’s but you don’t mention the 70’s and 80’s when the World Championships podium positions were far more open. Spot on and i see a interview with Crump senior, he said in some finals the riders new there were at least 6 to 8 riders on a given day were capable of winning it or doing well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keef Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 Am surprised Chunky,i like all 3 Harris a terrific racer Nicholls hope at Coventry gets back on track never really liked Blunsdon dont no why.To be honest all 3 would do well to get in a top 30 i think. Like Steady perhaps he wasn't getting paid properly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritPete Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Of all the Brits that I have seen, Peter Craven would just about top them all, narrowly ahead of Peter Collins. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 Spot on and i see a interview with Crump senior, he said in some finals the riders new there were at least 6 to 8 riders on a given day were capable of winning it or doing well. and it would be the same if you had a one-off final now - look at how many different riders finish on the podium in a GP each season - the bulk of the GP field would be capable of finishing on the podium under a one-off final system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted March 6, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 and it would be the same if you had a one-off final now - look at how many different riders finish on the podium in a GP each season - the bulk of the GP field would be capable of finishing on the podium under a one-off final system. The point you are missing are that they would have to EARN the right to get there in the first place.One or 2 good efforts rides would not be anough one slip up and you are out..It would still be the same old suspects more or likely would win it.And how many people have won gps and got to finals when they have only scored 8 pts? to get to the semi final.Alot different having to score 13 pts to win a meeting than scoring 8 to reach the semi final a different scenario and pressure altogether.you cant even compare the two formats alongside. Of all the Brits that I have seen, Peter Craven would just about top them all, narrowly ahead of Peter Collins. Peter Craven 1st Lee certainly in front of PC for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Peter Craven 1st Lee certainly in front of PC for me. Think those three are pretty much the correct top three in regards best ever Brits, and two of them were Belle Vue Aces as well!!!!! Think I would have Collins and Craven at 1 and 2 with Lee marginally third. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted March 6, 2012 Report Share Posted March 6, 2012 Think those three are pretty much the correct top three in regards best ever Brits, and two of them were Belle Vue Aces as well!!!!! Think I would have Collins and Craven at 1 and 2 with Lee marginally third. Difficult to argue with that oldace - as long as Peter Craven was No.1. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Difficult to argue with that oldace - as long as Peter Craven was No.1. :) Not sure about best three EVER..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Not sure about best three EVER..... Best BRITS ever Norbold. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) My top five would be: 1. Michael Lee 2. Peter Collins 3. Kenny Carter 4. Malc Simmons 5. Dave Jessup All of which were at the top when the competition of British talent was at its peak. I'd would just like to add that the list above was my opinion of the best riders that can be remembered more easily. I have nothing but praise and admiration for Peter Craven. I watched him many times and was amazed he was able to ride that well , being so small. My recollections are tarnished by the fact he was always beaten by the great Ove Fundin and that why i didn't rate him as high as some other , on here, do. Probably had he'd been around in a different era, he would have won far more. I rate Collins and Lee at the top, and went for Lee on the basis that I remember thinking , Lee would take Collins from the back, far more often then Collins taking Lee. Usually if Michael made the gate, Peter wouldn't get by, whereas Lee would normally find a way. Edited March 7, 2012 by GRW123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritPete Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 I have nothing but praise and admiration for Peter Craven. I watched him many times and was amazed he was able to ride that well , being so small. My recollections are tarnished by the fact he was always beaten by the great Ove Fundin. Are you sure about that? Always beaten by Ove? I don't think so. I saw a very interesting stat a while ago, from somebody who obviously kept a record of these things, and he said that Craven was the only rider to beat Fundin 100 times! Although Fundin was narrowly ahead overall. I does seem a lot, but that was his claim, and he was a Fundin fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 (edited) and he said that Craven was the only rider to beat Fundin 100 times! Although Fundin was narrowly ahead overall. I does seem a lot, but that was his claim, and he was a Fundin fan. He probably did. It's just my memory that each time i saw them it seems that Fundin always won. But Fundin was a special rider ....... so no disgrace there.... Edited March 7, 2012 by GRW123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritPete Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 He probably did. It's just my memory that each time i saw them it seems that Fundin always won. But Fundin was a special rider ....... so no disgrace there.... He certainly was, and I was a huge fan of Ove Fundin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Best BRITS ever Norbold. :) Tom Farndon was British I have nothing but praise and admiration for Peter Craven. I watched him many times and was amazed he was able to ride that well , being so small. My recollections are tarnished by the fact he was always beaten by the great Ove Fundin. Are you sure about that? Always beaten by Ove? I don't think so. I saw a very interesting stat a while ago, from somebody who obviously kept a record of these things, and he said that Craven was the only rider to beat Fundin 100 times! Although Fundin was narrowly ahead overall. I does seem a lot, but that was his claim, and he was a Fundin fan. Yes, I quoted Keith Farman's research some time ago. Keith was a devoted fan of Ove Fundin and tried to record every race he ever rode in. He once told me that the rider who beat him most in the period 1954 to 1963 was Peter Craven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted March 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 My feeling on Lee and Collins is that it was very close hard to choose.I decided on Lee because i feel Lee,s total best was better than Peter,s best.I hazard a guess Peter,s record against Mike was better than most prob level? Lee,s record for ex) against say Nielsen ,Penhall,Gundersen,Mauger,is excellent also i wouldnt have Craven along way ahead of the other two greats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritPete Posted March 7, 2012 Report Share Posted March 7, 2012 Thanks for that Norbold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Tom Farndon was British . Indeed he was but can anyone from that early in the sports existence be considered on of the best ever. The sport was still ony 6 or 7 years old in this country when Tom died and the skills required were still being honed by most. Tom was certainly among, or even was, the very best of the early thirties but the best of all time? no I am afraid not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 Indeed he was but can anyone from that early in the sports existence be considered on of the best ever. The sport was still ony 6 or 7 years old in this country when Tom died and the skills required were still being honed by most. Tom was certainly among, or even was, the very best of the early thirties but the best of all time? no I am afraid not. It has to be comparative though doesn't it? Who knows what Tom Farndon would have done on a modern bike with modern tracks? How would Peter Collins have fared on a Douglas on a deep track? Bikes and training are improving all the time. By saying that Mike Lee and Peter Collins are better say than Chris Harris or Scott Nicholls you are still comparing different times and having to go by results. I think the only way you can do it is to make a comparison through time and the achievements of the riders at the time they were riding under the conditions they rode in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 It has to be comparative though doesn't it? Who knows what Tom Farndon would have done on a modern bike with modern tracks? How would Peter Collins have fared on a Douglas on a deep track? Bikes and training are improving all the time. By saying that Mike Lee and Peter Collins are better say than Chris Harris or Scott Nicholls you are still comparing different times and having to go by results. I think the only way you can do it is to make a comparison through time and the achievements of the riders at the time they were riding under the conditions they rode in. I am in no way trying to undermine Tom Farndon, merely pointing out that in those days the riders were still at the pioneer stage, riders would try the sport one week and be in a team the next. Farndon was of course among the very best of these pioneers, and may well have gone on to true greatness but I dont think you can compare someone from the very early days as a true great. It is all subjective though and if you think Farndon was the best ever who am I to argue. For me though I will stick with the two PCs and Mike Lee as the best Brits to date Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted March 8, 2012 Report Share Posted March 8, 2012 I am in no way trying to undermine Tom Farndon, merely pointing out that in those days the riders were still at the pioneer stage, riders would try the sport one week and be in a team the next. Farndon was of course among the very best of these pioneers, and may well have gone on to true greatness but I dont think you can compare someone from the very early days as a true great. It is all subjective though and if you think Farndon was the best ever who am I to argue. For me though I will stick with the two PCs and Mike Lee as the best Brits to date Of course it is all a matter of opinion and there is no definitive answer to the question. Everyone will have their own views and, like you, I cannot argue with you if you think that Peter Craven etc. are the top three. The only thing that generally concerns me with this type of question is that there is always a skewing to the more recent (in this case) riders, though it could be best footballer ever, best album ever, best band ever. Which is only natural because people know what they know and older "greats" fade as the people who remember them fade. In thirty or forty years time I wonder if Peter Craven will make anyone's top three..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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