Which Is Best: The Old ‘one-off’ World Final Or Sgp.

[Mark]

SGP far better. Performance over a season is a better judge than a one off Final where a bike failure or thrown chain can ruin hopes. Also some riders would be favoured by certain tracks. One final at Bydgozcz and you may as well give Gollob or another pole the trophy. Conversely a class Pole hasn't won at Cardiff but Chris Harris has.

 

Opportunity to see riders try different tracks, to travel to different cities, see speedway in other countries, one bad meeting doesn't harm a total season's work.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

All got in excess of 50,000, some only just, pretyy good by todays standards but not the 90,000 some would have you believe

 

As you say, hardly bad crowds!

[stratton]

The memory can play tricks Sidney, yes the bottom tier was full but there were plenty of spaces in the top tier. Iy you have the video these are in evidence once or twice, particularly while the riders are on the parade truck. The racing scenes only really show the lower tier which was full and this gives weight to the myth of a packed house.

 

As regards touts, well they are outside Cardiff every year but there are still 30000 seats available from the ticket office!!!

Not 20,000 ths worth of empty seats Oldace not convinced ok not 92 ,ooo i have been to internationals England [ect] and 1981 looked as packed as some of them.Would say if you put Cardiffs crowd into the old Wembley would look a bit sad puts it into perspective for me Wembley has never been replaced not really.

[waiheke1]

...Never taken to the GP series..in theory someone winning is first 5 rides and then falling/tapes or engine failure in a semi, in every round be beaten to the world title by a rider finish on 7pts from his 5 rides and get lucky in semi and final, again in every round to be crowned World Champ......i cant sell the idea to my friends, and thats a reason cant get them to come to Speedway full time.........My answer....put top 64 riders in the world into a hat..and draw out,.16 each into 4 semis and only top 4 qualify to a one off final...NO seeds...wildcards......20 races..top points scorer after his 5 rides is World Champion.

 

 

to be far, a rider who chokes every time in the semis probably doesn't deserve to be world champion, conversely a rider who wins every semi and final can hardly be said to be "getting lucky" each time... you don't win those races thanks to luck.

happy with your second proposal if this was in additon to the GP series

I agree with your statement that the GP series has become stagnated. And I feel this is because of the amount of meetings and of the way it’s organised. I believe the ‘close-shop’ scenario is a big factor, and the once ‘must-see’ appeal is now evaporating.

Once a rider has gain entry into the series, it gives them a licence to compete for the foreseeable future.

Where once, a World final was the ‘Be-all’ and ‘end-all’ of everything, and rider had the attitude of ‘win at all costs’, now we have many rounds and riders adapt the attitude of, not necessary winning, but just to acquire as many point as possible. Riders know that by acquiring enough points to finish in the top ten, it will enable them to contest the following year.

 

My feelings of qualification to the GP series could be far better. The implication of which could have a far-reaching effect on our Elite League.

I don’t believe it to be right that those riders who finish outside to the top three should have automatic qualification to the next series. My suggestion would be that, top three would go through to next years series, Joined by the top three in the averages from Poland, Denmark, Sweden and England. (If a rider qualifies from two leagues his place is allocated to the next rider on the list.). This would total 15 plus one extra as dominated by the hosts of each meeting.

 

The effect of this would give the EL more appeal to the star riders, who at present choose to give it a miss. It would also give added insensitive for the riders, who race in league fixtures, without a ‘hope in hell’ of ever gaining qualification under the present system.

It would form a connection between each league organisation and that of the world stage. It would create more doors of opportunity for the riders.

 

No doubt, most of the top riders will still contest the series, as they do now. But it would illuminate the same riders racing ‘year in year out’ on the knowledge, there’s always next year.

 

Also the points awarded for SGP finals should be more rewarding. Say 8pts for 1^st ; 6 for 2^nd , 4 for 3^rd and 2 for 4^th. This would give more importance to reaching the finals and probably recapture that 'win at all costs' attitude that was associated with the old World Final nights.

 

good to see some creative thinking, though I don't agree tbh. And in reality, a rider finishing in the top3 of the averages in any of the major leagues is almost certain to be offerred one of the permanent wildcard slots (if not qualified already).

I also disagree on the points - I think the current scoring system is the one aspect which they have exactly right at present

Gary Havelock was nowhere near the Top 10 in the world even when he won it and Per Jonsson wasn't having a great season in 1990 if memory serves me right.

 

 

However, the list is much longer if you look at the people that have reached the rostrum who came so close to lifting the title that did well to reach the final its self ...... Gert Handberg and Les Collins for starters and you could possibly add Craig Boyce and Sam Ermolenko (1985 only) as suprise medal winners when you look at those they finished ahead of.

 

Also, if it was on a Grand Prix dtyle in the 70's and 80's ....... how many times would Dave Jessup have been in the running for the title instead of an engine failure costing so much.

While I agree, I'm not sure about your examples.

Havvy I would say was only second best to Per Jonsson in 92 if you look at their records that season.

Jonsson had a relatively poor '90 in the BL, but finished on the podium in all the qualifying rounds, so was hardly an outsider. Hans of course was a strong favourtie (especially after Jan O injured himself go-karting causing him to be ruled out of the final), but behind him I would say Shawn Moran and then Jonsson would have been the next favourites.

 

Less Collins was a bit of a surprise, but did win the inter-contyinental final (arguably a tougher meeting) in the lead up and similarly Handberg was in great form in the qualifiers in 92.

Personally I think the likes of Wiltshire (90), Jan O(86 only), Rickardsson (91 only) were bigger surprises.

Sam Ermolenko was certainly a big surprise though, each round he was one of those tipped to go out, but made it through and was excellent that afternoon at Odsal (albeit helped by a favourable draw).

 

Dave Jessup I feel would have been world champ in 80 and runner up in 81 had the GPs been in effect - I'm not sure that there were any year's prior to that when I would have expected him to nhave finished on the podium, though he may have come close.

[PHILIPRISING]

DIDN'T Sam win in Pocking. Per won at Odsal on an afternoon when Tatum probably should have done had he not been stuffed by Nielsen.

[waiheke1]

DIDN'T Sam win in Pocking. Per won at Odsal on an afternoon when Tatum probably should have done had he not been stuffed by Nielsen.

Philip, my post above is referring to Sam's upset 3rd place at Odsal in 85, not his World title winning performance (which was no great surprise)in Pocking 93. And yes, Jonsson did win at Odsal in 90.

[stratton]

to be far, a rider who chokes every time in the semis probably doesn't deserve to be world champion, conversely a rider who wins every semi and final can hardly be said to be "getting lucky" each time... you don't win those races thanks to luck.

happy with your second proposal if this was in additon to the GP series

 

 

good to see some creative thinking, though I don't agree tbh. And in reality, a rider finishing in the top3 of the averages in any of the major leagues is almost certain to be offerred one of the permanent wildcard slots (if not qualified already).

I also disagree on the points - I think the current scoring system is the one aspect which they have exactly right at present

 

While I agree, I'm not sure about your examples.

Havvy I would say was only second best to Per Jonsson in 92 if you look at their records that season.

Jonsson had a relatively poor '90 in the BL, but finished on the podium in all the qualifying rounds, so was hardly an outsider. Hans of course was a strong favourtie (especially after Jan O injured himself go-karting causing him to be ruled out of the final), but behind him I would say Shawn Moran and then Jonsson would have been the next favourites.

 

Less Collins was a bit of a surprise, but did win the inter-contyinental final (arguably a tougher meeting) in the lead up and similarly Handberg was in great form in the qualifiers in 92.

Personally I think the likes of Wiltshire (90), Jan O(86 only), Rickardsson (91 only) were bigger surprises.

Sam Ermolenko was certainly a big surprise though, each round he was one of those tipped to go out, but made it through and was excellent that afternoon at Odsal (albeit helped by a favourable draw).

 

Dave Jessup I feel would have been world champ in 80 and runner up in 81 had the GPs been in effect - I'm not sure that there were any year's prior to that when I would have expected him to nhave finished on the podium, though he may have come close.

No i dont think Jessup would of won in 1980 if the gps were iffect ,some of the bigger tracks on the circuit would of caught him out.Also people forget Lee broke his back at the NEC which was a miracle he won it in 1980. Jessup was unlucky not to win a one off final but over 11 rounds i dont think so.Jessup was a very fine rider but for me i rated of the 70s guys Ray Wilson Martin Ashby,simmo higher than DJ of course well behind Pc and Lee.

[Grand Central]

Why after all, would it have been capacity in '78 and a mere three years later almost 20k less??!! We know Speedway started to decline but that would've been a serious early sign of such a decline!!!

 

A very good point, I feel.

 

I would have thought that Phil Rising or one of the other Star columnists of the time might just have mentioned this in post-meeting reports, reviews and special supplements, wouldn't you?

 

In the 1980s there were numerous occasions of debate and controversy over the loss of Britain's place on the three-year rota, the loss of Wembley as a venue and the various times that it looked like Wembley could be brought back. Many of them backed by leader articles by Phil Rising in the Star, I seem to remember. Yet I have never, ever read before that the 1978 Finals was a sell-out. but that the 1981 had around 20,000 fewer. How come?

[g13webb]

 

good to see some creative thinking, though I don't agree tbh. And in reality, a rider finishing in the top3 of the averages in any of the major leagues is almost certain to be offerred one of the permanent wildcard slots (if not qualified already).

I also disagree on the points - I think the current scoring system is the one aspect which they have exactly right at present

 

 

I welcome your comments and respect what you say. but the whole point of my previous suggest was to illiminate the close shop scenario and riders having to qualify in a way that would be more beneficial to the respective leagues.

As i had said, i believe a lot of the star riders would always make it through to the SGP but it would open the door of opportunity to those riders who would otherwise fail to get a wild card. Gone would be the days when riders knowing that a top ten placing will get them in the following year. There are riders in the top ten who i believe will never win the World championship so to be given this free entry, year after year is wrong.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

I welcome your comments and respect what you say. but the whole point of my previous suggest was to illiminate the close shop scenario and riders having to qualify in a way that would be more beneficial to the respective leagues.

As i had said, i believe a lot of the star riders would always make it through to the SGP but it would open the door of opportunity to those riders who would otherwise fail to get a wild card. Gone would be the days when riders knowing that a top ten placing will get them in the following year. There are riders in the top ten who i believe will never win the World championship so to be given this free entry, year after year is wrong.

 

Again, absolutely spot on...

[The White Knight]

I welcome your comments and respect what you say. but the whole point of my previous suggest was to illiminate the close shop scenario and riders having to qualify in a way that would be more beneficial to the respective leagues.

As i had said, i believe a lot of the star riders would always make it through to the SGP but it would open the door of opportunity to those riders who would otherwise fail to get a wild card. Gone would be the days when riders knowing that a top ten placing will get them in the following year. There are riders in the top ten who i believe will never win the World championship so to be given this free entry, year after year is wrong.

 

Exactly!!

 

When you are an automatic 'Pick' you can become complacent, happy just to be there. If EVERYONE had to Qualify - that would NOT be the case.

[stratton]

Exactly!!

 

When you are an automatic 'Pick' you can become complacent, happy just to be there. If EVERYONE had to Qualify - that would NOT be the case.

Your so right and when you say it like that it makes you realise that the gp series certainly isnt fair.And what GR said was correct at least 10 are not capable of winning the world title.Myself even this year i only see four being able to win it, i think the top 8 should qualify only then change it encourage new blood in.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Wembley was only at full capacity for the following World Finals:

 

1949

1950

1951

1952

 

All the best

Rob

 

So not 1978 then, Rob..?

 

I understand though that the 1938 World Final had a then record crowd of 93,000..! Was that record ever beaten?

 

 

93,000 for the World Championship final at Wembley in 1938

[PHILIPRISING]

A very good point, I feel.

 

I would have thought that Phil Rising or one of the other Star columnists of the time might just have mentioned this in post-meeting reports, reviews and special supplements, wouldn't you?

 

In the 1980s there were numerous occasions of debate and controversy over the loss of Britain's place on the three-year rota, the loss of Wembley as a venue and the various times that it looked like Wembley could be brought back. Many of them backed by leader articles by Phil Rising in the Star, I seem to remember. Yet I have never, ever read before that the 1978 Finals was a sell-out. but that the 1981 had around 20,000 fewer. How come?

 

THERE is no doubt that the loss of Wembley as a World Final venue, which certainly arose because of pressure from the Football Association, seriously diminished Britain's standing within the Track Racing Commission (CCP) at the FIM. Wembley had always been a trump card when it came to the allocation of World Finals and its unavailability after 1981 also coincided with the USA (although only once) and then Germany joining the rota.

 

The FIM agreed to the Harry Oxley, Jack Milne, Barry Briggs and Ivan Mauger consortium staging a Final as a result of getting themselves embroiled in a legal argument that the Californian Supreme Court ruled they had to answer. A by-product of that settlement was also that Germany would get a Final in 1983. With no Wembley as a bargaining chip and only Odsal as a possible venue Britain simply had to wait its turn and received no preferential treatment.

 

I did indeed write a number of articles campaigning for the SCB to fight harder to get Wembley back but it was flogging a dead horse. Could the SCB have tried harder? Possibly, but the deal had been done and the FA held all the aces.

 

It was convenient around that time to enhance speedway's perceived popularity in general and the Wembley World Final in particular and to bandy figures like 90,000 around and at the time no one argued. It was only a little later that the real attendance figure for 1981 was revealed, unofficially as far as I can recall, but nobody really wanted to destroy the myth and speedway had already run its course there.

 

Incidentally, the attendance figures for the British GPs at Cardiff are supplied to the media by the stadium authorities through BSI at the Press Conference after the event.

[stratton]

THERE is no doubt that the loss of Wembley as a World Final venue, which certainly arose because of pressure from the Football Association, seriously diminished Britain's standing within the Track Racing Commission (CCP) at the FIM. Wembley had always been a trump card when it came to the allocation of World Finals and its unavailability after 1981 also coincided with the USA (although only once) and then Germany joining the rota.

 

The FIM agreed to the Harry Oxley, Jack Milne, Barry Briggs and Ivan Mauger consortium staging a Final as a result of getting themselves embroiled in a legal argument that the Californian Supreme Court ruled they had to answer. A by-product of that settlement was also that Germany would get a Final in 1983. With no Wembley as a bargaining chip and only Odsal as a possible venue Britain simply had to wait its turn and received no preferential treatment.

 

I did indeed write a number of articles campaigning for the SCB to fight harder to get Wembley back but it was flogging a dead horse. Could the SCB have tried harder? Possibly, but the deal had been done and the FA held all the aces.

 

It was convenient around that time to enhance speedway's perceived popularity in general and the Wembley World Final in particular and to bandy figures like 90,000 around and at the time no one argued. It was only a little later that the real attendance figure for 1981 was revealed, unofficially as far as I can recall, but nobody really wanted to destroy the myth and speedway had already run its course there.

 

Incidentally, the attendance figures for the British GPs at Cardiff are supplied to the media by the stadium authorities through BSI at the Press Conference after the event.

Hardly run its course Wembley i feel? even if the 1981 72,000 crowd was correct? which i am not convinced of that figure..Up until Penhalls retirement i thought the sport was in pretty good shape i thought the decline started from 1988 onwards?.If a agreement could be made to get Wembley which now i think is achievable and it is financially viable which with the research i am sure it could be this could be a trump card for speedway in the future.No doubt in my mind the Wembley crowd would be far bigger than Cardiff.Keep Cardiff odviously but have Wembley has a option who knows maybe Odsal might be in the equation to.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

The Olympic Stadium is to me though, a far likelier goer for a major, major London venue than Wembley...

[PHILIPRISING]

RAKING over old ground now. Hasn't this been done to death here under various guises.

 

After 1981 Wembley shut its doors to speedway. Fact.

 

The long term future of the British GP is at the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff ... a stadium with a roof which, as I have stated here ad nauseam, provides a massive insurance for the huge financial outlay required to stage a GP on that scale in the UK.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

RAKING over old ground now. Hasn't this been done to death here under various guises.

 

After 1981 Wembley shut its doors to speedway. Fact.

 

The long term future of the British GP is at the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff ... a stadium with a roof which, as I have stated here ad nauseam, provides a massive insurance for the huge financial outlay required to stage a GP on that scale in the UK.

 

It is old ground Phil so I agree we'd best not labour the point - but to me, to dismiss entitely the possibility of our sport being staged in what shall later this year become the most famous stadium in the world, shows how lacking in ambition we've now become...

[stratton]

RAKING over old ground now. Hasn't this been done to death here under various guises.

 

After 1981 Wembley shut its doors to speedway. Fact.

 

The long term future of the British GP is at the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff ... a stadium with a roof which, as I have stated here ad nauseam, provides a massive insurance for the huge financial outlay required to stage a GP on that scale in the UK.

Phil have you a vested interest ? to dismiss it as a option is madness?This has been discussed before and you have always been mega negative dont no why ?.If Wembley is available, Cardiff is in the background for you to dismiss it makes me no sense.

[Humphrey Appleby]

It was convenient around that time to enhance speedway's perceived popularity in general and the Wembley World Final in particular and to bandy figures like 90,000 around and at the time no one argued.

 

I can understand why promoters might want to do it, but a supposedly independent media should be more circumspect. On this basis, it also might lead one to wonder how accurate some of the reported GP figures are, especially given the round numbers in some cases.

 

Incidentally, the attendance figures for the British GPs at Cardiff are supplied to the media by the stadium authorities through BSI at the Press Conference after the event.

 

Although the FIM/IMG seem curiously reluctant to publish the attendance figures for the other GPs these days. They used to publish an annual summary on the FIM website, but I haven't been able to find this in recent years...