oldace Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 There are two sides to sport though, speedyguy...: not just the way governing bodies organise things but also what fans find exciting and gets numbers through the gates. Funny enough it's THAT side of things which has led Sky and the Elite League promoters to decide there should be the play-offs (effectively like a 'one-off' Final) to decide the league title; and yes, this does produce great excitement and large crowds. My (well-documented!) support for a one-off World Final is, in truth, based purely on that too...: that the old World Final was an amazingly exciting sporting event. I've been to many big events (FA Cup Finals, Internationals in several sports, World Cup Final in Rugby League etc.) but nothing to me has ever matched the excitement of the Speedway World Final. So yes, I accept all the points about the SGP system producing a fair winner over a season long set of rounds (am NOT going into the qualification system again as that row's been done to death!) but to me, it can NEVER replicate that excitement and THAT'S what's lacking. This is only my opinion but I do have to say that the reason sport is popular is generally more to do with excitement than consistency!! World Finals were indeed exciting events, the day round London, the tube to Wembley where all the stall holders adorned the way to the stadium, an electric atmosphere that you had to be there to believe. I must admit though I look back on those events with fondness, but not through rose tinted glasses and I truly believe, and did even before 1995, that the GP system is better. There are issues, lots of them probably, not least the impact on the Elite League but thats as much a result of the UK being unprepared to move with the times as anything. The qualification system isn't perfect, although not as flawed as some make out. If a World Championship is all about finding the best rider of a particular year then the GP ticks all the boxes there. Taken in the context of the number of speedway fans in the UK now as to the seventies then in real terms the attendance at Cardiff is on a par with a Wembley final so the majority of fans seem to be in favour Like everything times move on and a world final was great in it's day but it was time to move on. Now you could contend that approaching it's 18th season the series seems to have stagnated a bit, IMG seem to have done very little to further it but to be fair I am not sure where they could go with it. Speedway will never be truly global and Poland and Sweden are already saturated with GPS. Another event in the UK would simply dilute Cardiff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingIvan Posted February 7, 2012 Report Share Posted February 7, 2012 ...Never taken to the GP series..in theory someone winning is first 5 rides and then falling/tapes or engine failure in a semi, in every round be beaten to the world title by a rider finish on 7pts from his 5 rides and get lucky in semi and final, again in every round to be crowned World Champ......i cant sell the idea to my friends, and thats a reason cant get them to come to Speedway full time.........My answer....put top 64 riders in the world into a hat..and draw out,.16 each into 4 semis and only top 4 qualify to a one off final...NO seeds...wildcards......20 races..top points scorer after his 5 rides is World Champion. As for Wembley...it seemed very full in 72/75 and 78. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted February 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) World Finals were indeed exciting events, the day round London, the tube to Wembley where all the stall holders adorned the way to the stadium, an electric atmosphere that you had to be there to believe. Like everything times move on and a world final was great in it's day but it was time to move on. Now you could contend that approaching it's 18th season the series seems to have stagnated a bit, IMG seem to have done very little to further it but to be fair I am not sure where they could go with it. Speedway will never be truly global and Poland and Sweden are already saturated with GPS. Another event in the UK would simply dilute Cardiff I agree with your statement that the GP series has become stagnated. And I feel this is because of the amount of meetings and of the way it’s organised. I believe the ‘close-shop’ scenario is a big factor, and the once ‘must-see’ appeal is now evaporating. Once a rider has gain entry into the series, it gives them a licence to compete for the foreseeable future. Where once, a World final was the ‘Be-all’ and ‘end-all’ of everything, and rider had the attitude of ‘win at all costs’, now we have many rounds and riders adapt the attitude of, not necessary winning, but just to acquire as many point as possible. Riders know that by acquiring enough points to finish in the top ten, it will enable them to contest the following year. My feelings of qualification to the GP series could be far better. The implication of which could have a far-reaching effect on our Elite League. I don’t believe it to be right that those riders who finish outside to the top three should have automatic qualification to the next series. My suggestion would be that, top three would go through to next years series, Joined by the top three in the averages from Poland, Denmark, Sweden and England. (If a rider qualifies from two leagues his place is allocated to the next rider on the list.). This would total 15 plus one extra as dominated by the hosts of each meeting. The effect of this would give the EL more appeal to the star riders, who at present choose to give it a miss. It would also give added insensitive for the riders, who race in league fixtures, without a ‘hope in hell’ of ever gaining qualification under the present system. It would form a connection between each league organisation and that of the world stage. It would create more doors of opportunity for the riders. No doubt, most of the top riders will still contest the series, as they do now. But it would illuminate the same riders racing ‘year in year out’ on the knowledge, there’s always next year. Also the points awarded for SGP finals should be more rewarding. Say 8pts for 1st ; 6 for 2nd , 4 for 3rd and 2 for 4th. This would give more importance to reaching the finals and probably recapture that 'win at all costs' attitude that was associated with the old World Final nights. Edited February 9, 2012 by GRW123 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Well it is interesting that we've had this debate spread over several threads and over about a year or so now and yet here we have from GRW123 (who - forgive me if I'm wrong - hasn't contributed to those previous debates) what is probably the most considered and sensible contribution I've seen on this subject. I promised not to be over-involved this time but certainly I will endorse most of what's been said by this poster!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woz01 Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Gp's for me! Its what got me back into speedway after the birth of my daughter. The qualifying does need a tweak but on the whole it does get a true world champion. Should be no more than 14 gp's have 3 in the winter in Usa, Australia and NZ and the other 11 during the European season but please try and spread them around and not have 3 in Poland, 2 is enough! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 I agree was chocker block ,i cant remember many gaps i have articles for the meeting and 92,000 was never disputed. It is only the last 10 years it has been put into question1975 was also a good gate coaches galore outside remember nearly losing me dad. SORRY Sidney but the official figure was around 72,000 and was available at the time for those prepared to listen. It was always good propaganda to bump up Wembley attendances even for soccer when the magical number of 100,000 was bandied around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g13webb Posted February 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 (edited) Well it is interesting that we've had this debate spread over several threads and over about a year or so now and yet here we have from GRW123 (who - forgive me if I'm wrong - hasn't contributed to those previous debates) what is probably the most considered and sensible contribution I've seen on this subject. I promised not to be over-involved this time but certainly I will endorse most of what's been said by this poster!! Hi. No your not wrong, I didn't join or know of the forum till last summer. When I took early retirement it was suggested that I should join in the debates to past away the hours. So I can only opologise if I have open up old wounds ( debates.) Edited February 8, 2012 by GRW123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 'One Off' World Final for me. I won't put reasons, been there, done that, got the T-Shirt! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 SORRY Sidney but the official figure was around 72,000 and was available at the time for those prepared to listen. It was always good propaganda to bump up Wembley attendances even for soccer when the magical number of 100,000 was bandied around. Quite right Philip, despite the myth of Wembley always being a sell out it only happened twice, 1978 was one I believe. Some of the 1950s finals got barely 50,000 although Thursday nights didnt help to that end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 Quite right Philip, despite the myth of Wembley always being a sell out it only happened twice, 1978 was one I believe. Some of the 1950s finals got barely 50,000 although Thursday nights didnt help to that end SORRY Sidney but the official figure was around 72,000 and was available at the time for those prepared to listen. It was always good propaganda to bump up Wembley attendances even for soccer when the magical number of 100,000 was bandied around. SORRY Sidney but the official figure was around 72,000 and was available at the time for those prepared to listen. It was always good propaganda to bump up Wembley attendances even for soccer when the magical number of 100,000 was bandied around. I have about 5 different articles about 1981, never once was 72,000 mentioned still a good crowd if true? Football then used to get 90,000 plus i cant believe there were 20,000 gaps there that night was packed if so was still a good crowd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted February 8, 2012 Report Share Posted February 8, 2012 I have about 5 different articles about 1981, never once was 72,000 mentioned still a good crowd if true? Football then used to get 90,000 plus i cant believe there were 20,000 gaps there that night was packed if so was still a good crowd 72k certainly not an attendance to be sniffed at but I too think it was probably more than this. Why after all, would it have been capacity in '78 and a mere three years later almost 20k less??!! We know Speedway started to decline but that would've been a serious early sign of such a decline!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.N.T. Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 At first I would have said the GPs give you a true world champion, but if you look back over the years how many times was the 1 off final won by a non deserving rider ... I would say only when Jerzy & Egon won it ... most of the time the rider was one of the top 5 in the world at the time Gary Havelock was nowhere near the Top 10 in the world even when he won it and Per Jonsson wasn't having a great season in 1990 if memory serves me right. However, the list is much longer if you look at the people that have reached the rostrum who came so close to lifting the title that did well to reach the final its self ...... Gert Handberg and Les Collins for starters and you could possibly add Craig Boyce and Sam Ermolenko (1985 only) as suprise medal winners when you look at those they finished ahead of. Also, if it was on a Grand Prix dtyle in the 70's and 80's ....... how many times would Dave Jessup have been in the running for the title instead of an engine failure costing so much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Gary Havelock was nowhere near the Top 10 in the world even when he won it ... Are you sure about that!? He was British Final and Overseas Final (the penultimate round of the World Championship) winner that year too... Find it hard to see how that would make him "nowhere near the top 10"..?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPEEDY69 Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 One off final definitely. GPs were ok when a novelty for a few years but too many rounds now and I find them boring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 I have about 5 different articles about 1981, never once was 72,000 mentioned still a good crowd if true? Football then used to get 90,000 plus i cant believe there were 20,000 gaps there that night was packed if so was still a good crowd The memory can play tricks Sidney, yes the bottom tier was full but there were plenty of spaces in the top tier. Iy you have the video these are in evidence once or twice, particularly while the riders are on the parade truck. The racing scenes only really show the lower tier which was full and this gives weight to the myth of a packed house. As regards touts, well they are outside Cardiff every year but there are still 30000 seats available from the ticket office!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 So are we saying then that there WAS a 20k drop in attendance between a sold out '78 Wembley Final and the one just three years later in '81? This is appears to be what is being said here..? Only, if this was the case would've expected there to have been a massive amount written at the time about what would've been a hugely dramatic decine in interest.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Wembley was only at full capacity for the following World Finals: 1949 1950 1951 1952 All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Wembley was only at full capacity for the following World Finals: 1949 1950 1951 1952 All the best Rob I don't believe there was even 4 sold out finals Rob, the only two were 1978 and one other but not sure which, certainly the four you mentioned were not all sold out, some were poorly attended, like I said Thursday night was,t the best night for a World Final. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 I don't believe there was even 4 sold out finals Rob, the only two were 1978 and one other but not sure which, certainly the four you mentioned were not all sold out, some were poorly attended, like I said Thursday night was,t the best night for a World Final. Hmm, define "poorly attended"..: especially for a Thursday night?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted February 9, 2012 Report Share Posted February 9, 2012 Hmm, define "poorly attended"..: especially for a Thursday night?! All got in excess of 50,000, some only just, pretyy good by todays standards but not the 90,000 some would have you believe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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