Concern For The Future Of The National League

[TMW]

You asked me if I would support the NL if Dudley went PL. That suggested to me that you expected the answer to be no, and I was just pointing out that this is not the case. If I misunderstood - I apologse.

 

The NL very much reminds me of the old Provincial league in the 60's with more excitement and closer racing. I cant get enough of it to be honest, and yes, I totally agree that we all have to get involved in any way we can. The reason I posted this in the first place was to try and spark some discussion in the hope that 1 or 2 good ideas may be taken forward.

 

I am sorry I cant share your memories that far back.....I apologise if it came across that way. The question was suposed to put a different point of view.

[greyhoundp]

this sounds strange and its not what should happen but the NL should make it self so successful that premier teams should want to drop down , the product is right just the way it is projected into fan base is all wrong , but that is speedways problem in general ,i really dont care what the premier or elite do i am only passionate about the NL and its way forward

 

Maybe then there should be an alternative to the BSPA, i really like the idea of PL Teams wanting to drop down, and if the League was run correctly, i can see more teams doing that. such as Newport, it wouldnt be a great disaster if they followed Stoke into the NL, ie the Provincial League and the National League in the early sixties, why not call it the "British League" after all that is what this is really all about, encouraging BRITISH riders, the name is on the Tin.

Edited January 28, 2012 by greyhoundp

[CrystalCastles]

Most of the NL tracks that have closed over the last few years have either been double up teamclubs that coufd not afford to run two teams (Newport, Belle Vue, Redcar, Edinburgh) teams that have been promoted (Plymouth) or those who have lost the use of their stadiums for one reason or another (Oxford, Wimbledon, Weymouth). Its not financial losses as such that forced closure (as an example, the Newport NL side lost far less than its PL equivalent).

 

Still lost money though.

 

Maybe then there should be an alternative to the BSPA, i really like the idea of PL Teams wanting to drop down, and if the League was run correctly, i can see more teams doing that. such as Newport, it wouldnt be a great disaster if they followed Stoke into the NL, ie the Provincial League and the National League in the early sixties, why not call it the "British League" after all that is what this is really all about, encouraging BRITISH riders, the name is on the Tin.

 

Many people outside our actual fanbase have said that it would be an alternative to keep speedway at Newport given our financial difficulties in the recent past.

 

Unfortunately the attitude towards NL racing amongst the overwhelming majority of Newport fans doesn't reflect this.

[SteveEvans]

One way how you'd fill the NL with more clubs than it could fit in - offer all Elite League clubs 1 extra point on their team building limit for the EL if they ran an NL team - suddenly its affordable!!!

 

NL is a great spectacle and at admission around a tenner its affordable racing to go see.

[villiers210]

One way how you'd fill the NL with more clubs than it could fit in - offer all Elite League clubs 1 extra point on their team building limit for the EL if they ran an NL team - suddenly its affordable!!!

 

NL is a great spectacle and at admission around a tenner its affordable racing to go see.

Nice idea Steve, and personally I do agree that it would be great if any club whether it be EL or PL could be rewarded for running a NL side as well. My only concern is, that doing it by giving em an extra point to play with will disadvantage those that genuinely cant run NL as well (for reasons such as stadium availability etc).

[SteveEvans]

Nice idea Steve, and personally I do agree that it would be great if any club whether it be EL or PL could be rewarded for running a NL side as well. My only concern is, that doing it by giving em an extra point to play with will disadvantage those that genuinely cant run NL as well (for reasons such as stadium availability etc).

 

Stadiums would be available - EL teams run about 8 less home fixtures than back in 2006. The question would be viable as EL rental charges wouldn't work for NL.

 

That said you could allow clubs to share a team and still get the benefit. So if you had a 12 team league that way you could simply (worse case) run 3 double headers each for your home meetings.

[greyhoundp]

The problem is, When wolves speedway ran a Conference side people saw it as junior or inferior racing, same at Coventry, Poole, Newport, Armadale, Belle Vue, Rye House to a point, KL struggle to attract crowds, its not the product its the perception. If Newport solely had British League racing <NL> yes the crowds would be down, but i still think it would survive, such as what Stoke did in 2011.

[SteveEvans]

All valid points. I see the difference now is that you could run NL on your regular race nights - Coventry have 11 free fridays with GP's for example. Back then NL racing was run on a separate night often. Factor the NL into season ticket prices and you've got a chunk of it paid before a wheel is turned.

[villiers210]

at least people are thinking and coming up with ideas. All good stuff!!

[25yearfan]

For a start changing the name of the NL again would be silly and confusing especially if it was to the British League the name of the top flight from 1965-1990!

 

With the exception of Dudley/Cradley at Wolves who are some of the most passionate and vastly numbered fans in the Country and would very likely be EL if they had their own track, running two teams at one tracks has never been profitable. This is cause unless you have a Cradley scanario where they have a big fanbase desperate to have their own track and are lucky to have Wolves literally down the road, two teams at one track would be trying to get viable crowds out of one fanbase and most speedway fans can only afford to follow one team and will always follow the higher League team. This was even the case at Belle Vue and King's Lynn in the late 60's/early 70's when they both tryed to run two teams at 1st and 2nd Division levels and this was in an era when crowds were 3 times as big as they are nowadays!

 

The only way most tracks can run two teams without crippling themselves financially is a Len Silver like set up where the promotor doesn't mind writing of the losses of the 3rd tier team, very good sponsorship or grants from either a BSPA pot out of the SKY deal and/or proceeds from the Cardiff GP or lottery grants. Its very disapointing to see some of the ridiculous activites that gets funding from the lottery pot while speedway doesn't get any!

 

The 3rd Division has always been seen as something of an unviable afterthought by most promotors of tracks in the top two Leagues. In reality it has been one of the best innovations ever because many Brits have had their 1st 7 man team experience in this League, many new tracks have dipped thier toes in the less expensive 3rd Division waters first and many former tracks have returned because this level provided them with an affordable League to compete at!

A perfect example of this is Mildenhall speedway who would have never reopened without a 3rd Division and who offers far better value for money speedway meetings on most occasions than any of their higher League near neighbours, King's Lynn, Peterborough, Ipswich and Rye House!

Last season Stoke dropped down cause they were finding financiing PL a difficulty. Without the NL Stoke wold of likely not ran League speedway last season or this upcoming season!

Most of the virgin tracks opened or defunct tracks reopened since the 1990's have had their first/returning season in the 3rd tier!

 

The League is going through tough times but remember it went down to 5 teams in 1998 so can overcome this difficult period!

 

What needs to be done by the BSPA is to find some way of making running 2nd teams at 3rd tier level viable and to also take the excellent Midland and Northern junior Leagues and all amatuer clubs properly under their umbrella. The junior Leagues have offered the many riders under the very high NL level a proper stage to learn their trade and are effectively part of a British 4th Division set up. While the vibrant amatuer scene which started in the early 90's and has expanded every since is effectively a British 5th Division. Nowadays at most tracks the old style 2nd halfs are dead so amatuer meetings offer the best way for riders to try speedway and in properly staged and structured meetings where they are racing against other riders which is the best form of practise because they learn more this way than by riding round on your own. With more exposure and asisstance from the BSPA these junior Leagues and amatuer scenes can offer British riders a perfect stepping stone!

 

I'm sure offering EL and PL more points on top of the points limit would entice many to run a 2nd team in the NL!

Edited January 28, 2012 by 25yearfan

[Halifaxtiger]

Where as I appreciate your passion I have a question. If Dudley were in the PL would you have this passion for the NL?. Unfortunatley, all to many answer this question with NO. I suspect that many teams, you mention, are reluctant to put there big toe in the water let alone swim. There just isn't the support for the league i'm affraid apart from Dudley. The people who pay their money want to see the stars and who can blame them?. I suspect the only way the support for the NL would incease would be to make it free entry and then you are getting into the realms of the chicken and the egg or catch 22. I have to support the PL because the only local team is a PL team and I have to say the only heat I all to often enjoy and look forward to is Ht 2. More often that not its 4 british lads giving their all in a difficult league.

 

I think you are right about the viewpoint of PL (or EL) supporters regarding the NL. In fact, the majority of them care more or less about their club and their club alone.

 

I don't think its true that necessarily pay to see the big stars. If they did, no-one would go to PL racing, either. Most go to watch the team they support or, alternatively, good speedway and many NL clubs are above there bigger cousins where the latter is concerned, as Dudley, Mildenhall & Scunthorpe are up there with the best.

 

 

Yes they are good signs, but what is really concerning me is because of the lack of teams in the league this year and the result of that is we have damn good prospects who cannot find a team place. Not only that - they often have to travel hundreds of miles to get a practice ride in.That is a scandal of monumental proportions, and if it isnt addressed the future looks bleak.

 

Very difficult to disagree with that but short of opening new tracks or persuading more promoters to accept the losses that a third tier team will almost certainly create I am not sure what can be done.

 

There is a possibility that the NL will increase in size by 50% next season (and I will be surprised if it does not increase by 20% at least). I doubt if that will apply to the PL or EL.

 

i think for a start drop the development or amateur tag from the title , while it might have the intentions it puts people off straight away , use the word training ,development, amateur and fans think wobblers going round at 5mph and crashing every corner , make it look professional , i know fans who just wont go to watch NL cause they think its a glorified training school,it does not matter what its intentions are it must be seen as a 3rd division, this is not the answer to all the problems but i think its a must as a starting point

 

Fair point, Dean. To a degree, its window dressing anyway.

 

Still lost money though.

 

Many people outside our actual fanbase have said that it would be an alternative to keep speedway at Newport given our financial difficulties in the recent past.

 

Unfortunately the attitude towards NL racing amongst the overwhelming majority of Newport fans doesn't reflect this.

 

Most double up clubs do lose money on the second string team. Its a question whether the losses are sustainable and the numbers of riders produced make it worthwhile. Scunthorpe have shown that you can make a success of it.

 

I asked Main Man that very question and he agrees

[Woz01]

I would support Coventry having a NL side, we could easily run on gp weekends. Obviously admission would have to be cheaper but im sure there would be a half decent crowd on a friday night.

[21st century heathen]

With regard to the opening post - Yes, it's disappointing that we have league with so few clubs this season. However, all the indications are that this is a one-off and we will have a bigger league again next season. With that in mind I'm disappointed but I don't weep for NL speedway.

 

There are one or two good points raised. The major one I agree with is raising the profile of the league. Speedway in general needs to revamp itself but the NL in particular has allowed itself to be viewed as something of 6-fingered cousin even within the sports current fan base. If it's viewed as a poor alternative by existing fans then what chance of attracting new fans? The easiest thing in the world would be to re-name the league's so that it's instantly recognisable to anyone you stop on the street. Ask someone in what order to place the EL, PL and NL and they may guess right but would not be certain. We now have 4 recognised leagues so one of two options present themselves. Either follow Football as most people could relate to it. So we would have the Premiership, Championship, Division 1 and the Conference (or Division 2). The alternative would be all change and simply have Division 1 through 4 which is easy to market and instantly obvious to anybody.

 

Something I would oppose is the idea, or anything like it, of giving EL teams another point on the points limit if they run NL. I think that's utterly ridiculous. If the richer EL clubs with more assets decided to do it to get a head start where would it leave the like of BV, Eastbourne, Birmingham and Kings Lynn that have very few options? But perhaps worse than this is that the cost of running in the EL would go up, so the admission would go up (baring in mind most are upping the cost to £17 this season anyway) which would force more fans away from the sport in general and accelerate the downward spiral.

 

Costs are the fundamental stumbling block to any and all ideas to improve things. Where is the money going to come from to implement any ideas we, or indeed the BSPA, come up with? The sport is effectively run by wealthy fans that can afford to write off the losses they make from doing something they love. Very, very few people are making any real money out of speedway in this country.

 

As for getting back to where we, British Speedway, were you can forget it. We still have talented riders but the tables have been turned. When I was born it was pretty much Brits, Danes and Americans dominating world speedway. The Danes are clinging on but the Americans and the Brits have fallen away with Poland and even Russia emerging. With regard to Poland in particular it may have been that in the past they had talented riders but not the money invested in the sport. How times change. If what's been put on the forum in recent times is accurate then a State run energy company is bank-rolling speedway in Poland with Hancock commanding a £100,000 sign-on fee and £1500 a point (even one suggestion it's £1700 if he scores 12 or more). Other riders have recently come out and said they can earn 10 times as much in Poland as in Britain. And it's a similar story in Russia where Ryan Sullivan said he could earn as much doing 8 (I think it was) meetings out there as a whole season here. I would estimate top heat leaders here are on around £150-£200 a point, so the maths fits and it sounds feasible that that is the sort of money been thrown around over there now. That said I did hear on the grape vine a few years ago that a high profile EL heat leader was on a guarantee of £x (no names or numbers as I can't prove either) per meeting, which was a lot by our standards.

 

We simply cannot compete with that and trying to would see British Speedway become little more than a weekend hobby and certainly nothing we would recognise as our current set up. Sad but true to say that in my opinion we simply have to accept our place in world speedway is not what it was. We have no divine right to rule the roost.

[philcrumpisgod]

Still lost money though.

 

 

 

Many people outside our actual fanbase have said that it would be an alternative to keep speedway at Newport given our financial difficulties in the recent past.

 

Unfortunately the attitude towards NL racing amongst the overwhelming majority of Newport fans doesn't reflect this.

 

Sorry ftb but I don't think I agree with you.

 

I am not advocating Newport steps down to the NL because I'm looking forward to seeing what the Wasps can do from the off this year but look back to a couple of season ago when the Wasps were dreadful and the Hornets were doing really well and in the running for the title.

 

Because fans were cheesed off with the Wasps, the Hornets became the preferred team to watch. I know which I looked forward to watching at the time and there was a real buzz about going over to see Todd and co strutting their stuff. I would say that the crowds weren't much different between the Wasps and the Hornets as people wanted to go and see the winning team and not the team who were getting beaten every week!

 

I think the reason why Newport now don't run the Hornets is because people can't afford to watch two lots of teams, last year the Wasps were great and the Hornets poor, the club lost a lot of money and something had to give.

 

IF, and it is a BIG IF, Newport lost PL speedway but ran a succesful NL team instead, I'd definately go and I suspect so would the majority if not all of the current Wasps fans.

 

Maybe if the Malletts lose big money again this year with the Wasps team they have assembled somebody might just step in and take the club NL and run it with a top team and decent crowds for that level of racing, who knows, but I think there would be an appetite for the NL amongst Newport fans in the right circumstances.

[June]

My opinion on a name change for N/L is; Whatever name you'd like to call it will never change the fact that...... It is the first rung to the ladder of climbing the leagues for a rider.You cannot fool supporters nor should you. I cannot for the life of me see why fans won't/don't get behind our british lads. Call the leagues 1st, 2nd and 3rd will change nothing. The point is a lot of brits are not patriotic, like they used to be in the 70s when the terraces used to be packed. I remember going to Belle Vue for International meetings to get behind Peter Collins and Chris Morton and to Halifax for K Carter. The atmosphere was brilliant everybody cheering OUR lads on. Now I go to Cardiff and the crowds cheer on for foreign riders who race for their team. OK. that brings us back to people saying " well the brits aren't good enough".....back to square one because we will not see further than our nose. We need a first league for the youngsters like we've never needed it before! Don't come back and say I'm racist because I'm not, I love the foreign riders in my team, BUT we must give our young brits a chance to get onto that first rung of that ladder and support them. For those who don't know what the racing is like, I can tell you that it is more competative and exciting than E/L these kids are fighting to break through and never give up. I love it!

[21st century heathen]

The suggestion of a name change for the leagues is not so much for those of us that already follow speedway, it makes no difference to us because we go anyway, so much as it's for marketing purposes in my opinion. A redistribution of the current fan base by clubs moving from one league to another is not an answer the bigger problems the sport faces. The sport desperately needs to tap into the untold thousands that used to go 'back in the day', new fans that know little or nothing about the sport at the moment and to attract more/higher value sponsorship. As I said before, to anyone 'outside' the sport the terms currently used mean nothing really. Aligning our league names to those used in Football is instantly recognisable to most and a simple 1, 2, 3 approach obvious to everyone (I would hope!). The amateur status of the development league can be easily associated by it being known as a Development League rather than it following the football or 1, 2, 3 structure. Of course it's not an overnight fix and all will be fine and dandy by the weekend, but it's a change that's quick, easy, cost free and may lead to more easily 'selling' the sport. The most important bit being that unlike virtually every other suggestion made is that it will cost basically nothing!

[teddy2706]

With regard to second halves, it baffles me why Sheffield who start at 7.45 are usually able to accomodate a second half, yet Stoke who start at 7.30 are frequently in danger of overrunning their own curfew.

 

Perhaps some promoters believe tractor time is more important than riding time, certainly it seems to take a very long time to get less than 17 minutes of racing completed at certain tracks, this isn't helped by referee's and rules allowing too much time between heats.

All tracks ought to be capable of holding decent second halves.

However, NL is hugely entertaining and deserves a full meeting on a fresh track surface, so second halves are not the way forward for NL IMO.

[TMW]

With regard to second halves, it baffles me why Sheffield who start at 7.45 are usually able to accomodate a second half, yet Stoke who start at 7.30 are frequently in danger of overrunning their own curfew.

 

Perhaps some promoters believe tractor time is more important than riding time, certainly it seems to take a very long time to get less than 17 minutes of racing completed at certain tracks, this isn't helped by referee's and rules allowing too much time between heats.

All tracks ought to be capable of holding decent second halves.

However, NL is hugely entertaining and deserves a full meeting on a fresh track surface, so second halves are not the way forward for NL IMO.

 

I don't think there is an intention to replace the NL with the 2nd half leagues. It's just to get riders up to the standard to make the NL more competitive and obviously put NL in the shop window with PL and EL supporters. If they like what they see i the 2nd halfs who knows they may even take in a meeting or 2 and increase the crowd base.

[Nikko]

Update on the offer to facilitate a meeting at the BSPA.

 

No contact from anyone.

 

Regards

 

Neil "Nikko" Day

[waco]

The BPSA are not interested in anything dscussed on these forums..Few promoters,, even look at it,,we all have op[nions of what needs to be done to improve british speedway..Some may be excellent but all fall on deaf ears....