1990 Bradford Does Nielsen Officially Get A Rostrum Place?

[stratton]

The points limit is entirely neccesary but as long as the number of teams in the league stays the same then it should always be 42.5.

 

Any lower and it forces riders out to be replaced by inferior ones, any higher and teams at the bottom wont be able to strengthen up and wont be competitive

I am not convinced we need 42.5? because of the lack of depth of quality around?If it was a squad system then thats different.

[oldace]

I am not convinced we need 42.5? because of the lack of depth of quality around?If it was a squad system then thats different.

 

The lack of quality is partly caused by a lower than 42.5 limit. 42.5 allows the league to grow stronger and prosper, less strangles it

[stratton]

The lack of quality is partly caused by a lower than 42.5 limit. 42.5 allows the league to grow stronger and prosper, less strangles it

Even if there was no limit is the quality there not sure?The only way it would be stronger if you had the likes of Screen Ashworth that sort of quality regularly at reserve rather than riders woefully out of there depth.

[lucifer sam]

Why are you always making excuses for Hans Nielsen's World Final failures?

 

It wasn't an excuse, I just had a hunch going into that final that Hans wasn't going to win it and I was right.

 

And I hardly need to make excuses for a four-time World Champion.

 

All the best

Rob

 

Thats why Nielsen averaged well over 11.30 for some years the level had dropped alarmingly.No comparison to the 11.74 average Ivan got against far far superior opposition.Then you sometimes had someone only 12th or 15 th in the top averages on a big 9.00 figure.

 

Sidney,

 

Your figures are out.

 

We once researched into this:

 

http://www.speedway-...pic=38689&st=15

 

Top league averages were:

 

1. Nielsen 11.83 (1986)

2. Nielsen 11.73 (1987)

3. Fundin 11.60 (1958)

4. Michanek 11.55 (1973)

5. Duggan 11.54 (1947)

6. Mauger 11.53 (1969)

 

It turns out that Mauger's 1969 average was incorreclty reported, as two tape exclusions were not counted. His proper league average for that year is 11.53 - still a superb figure.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited January 24, 2012 by lucifer sam

[stratton]

It wasn't an excuse, I just had a hunch going into that final that Hans wasn't going to win it and I was right.

 

And I hardly need to make excuses for a four-time World Champion.

 

All the best

Rob

 

 

 

Sidney,

 

Your figures are out.

 

We once researched into this:

 

http://www.speedway-...pic=38689&st=15

 

Top league averages were:

 

1. Nielsen 11.83 (1986)

2. Nielsen 11.73 (1987)

3. Fundin 11.60 (1958)

4. Michanek 11.55 (1973)

5. Duggan 11.54 (1947)

6. Mauger 11.53 (1969)

 

It turns out that Mauger's 1969 average was incorreclty reported, as two tape exclusions were not counted. His proper league average for that year is 11.53 - still a superb figure.

 

All the best

Rob

Wasnt worried about the exact figure just saying about the quality of opposition alot inferior.Also some magazines ,year books ect do differ sometimes in figures averages you are the stats man so is accurate i know.1990 Hans should of won it was the best rider, 1986 should not of very very lucky in the Knudsen incident swings and roundabouts i suppose.

[WIE-JA]

Have any of you actually thought that there might be more equel strength in the leagues now and that is why there are not so many dominant riders with exceptionally high averages?

[stratton]

Have any of you actually thought that there might be more equel strength in the leagues now and that is why there are not so many dominant riders with exceptionally high averages?

No because if so, you are watching a different sport to me.

[oldace]

No because if so, you are watching a different sport to me.

 

No Sidney he isn't. He is right. Like I said you are correct in your point that there is not the same quality around now that there was years ago. With the exception of a couple of riders the Elite League is staffed with a bunch of pretty mediocre riders.

 

You were just using averages to try to prove the point, which as I explained was flawed

[fatface]

It wasn't an excuse, I just had a hunch going into that final that Hans wasn't going to win it and I was right.

 

And I hardly need to make excuses for a four-time World Champion.

In that case, I must have mis-interpreted you. It just sounds like you are making excuses when you say: "He had been very good at Bradford in the past, but that all changed after Erik's accident." I certainly never saw any indication Nielsen's racing was in any way effected by what happened to Erik Gundersen and have never heard of Nielsen or anyone close to him suggesting that was the case. For me, he under-performed and Moran and Jonsson were simply better on the night.

[WIE-JA]

No because if so, you are watching a different sport to me.

 

Hmm wonder what I was seeing at those 70 odd meetings I went to last season? It was during a conversation with an ex rider from the '60s n '70s that this came up. He was a heat leader for many years and was saying how much standards had improved from when he was riding particulaly the lower order team members. The standards of bikes had also improved, particulaly preperation. When he first rode in a second division team he'd only rode a speedway bike 6 times. Aparently this wasn't unusual in those days.

[stratton]

Hmm wonder what I was seeing at those 70 odd meetings I went to last season? It was during a conversation with an ex rider from the '60s n '70s that this came up. He was a heat leader for many years and was saying how much standards had improved from when he was riding particulaly the lower order team members. The standards of bikes had also improved, particulaly preperation. When he first rode in a second division team he'd only rode a speedway bike 6 times. Aparently this wasn't unusual in those days.

Thats just progress i suppose,the more you put in the more you get out any little advantage helps.My theory is and Briggo has said that now sometimes there is only one line at certain tracks because of the speed being quicker harder to pass.There were riders who years ago were near novices very raw but went on and made a career for themselves.Does it happen now i have my doubts if so not very often.

[WIE-JA]

Thats just progress i suppose,the more you put in the more you get out any little advantage helps.My theory is and Briggo has said that now sometimes there is only one line at certain tracks because of the speed being quicker harder to pass.There were riders who years ago were near novices very raw but went on and made a career for themselves.Does it happen now i have my doubts if so not very often.

 

They were all raw novices once. One line tracks are usually down to poor preperation. Go to Peterborough when it's slick and you'll struggle to stay awake. Go when it's prepared well such as the World Cup event a couple of years ago and you wont want the meeting to end.

[lucifer sam]

In that case, I must have mis-interpreted you. It just sounds like you are making excuses when you say: "He had been very good at Bradford in the past, but that all changed after Erik's accident." I certainly never saw any indication Nielsen's racing was in any way effected by what happened to Erik Gundersen and have never heard of Nielsen or anyone close to him suggesting that was the case. For me, he under-performed and Moran and Jonsson were simply better on the night.

 

Hans just didn't have a very good 1990 - well not by his own standards. He was pretty good the whole year around, but if anything he got even better just before a World Final. There was less avidence of that in 1990. His average was down by about a point from 11.00 to just above 10.00. Which was low for Hans. And he looked more beatable than usual heading into the World Final - including at Bradford in the Gold Cup Final.

 

I was much more surprised when he didn't win in 1991. He was flying for much of July and August 1991, culminating with winning 13 out of 13 races on the Bank Holiday before the World Final. But he just had a bad meeting. Well I say bad meeting, but third in the world is still not too shabby. But I did expect Hans to win in 1991.

 

And Erik's accident did definitely affect him. At the time of Erik's accident, Hans's BL average was around 11.30. By the end of 1989, it was down to less than 11.00. And then he never got that high again. The main reason is Hans stopped taking the chances when he missed the gate at BL level. Before he was always quite aggressive pushing others riders aside on the first/second bend, even if it was a challenge match or a second half race. Not dirty as such, but quite hard. Hans at his peak was quite a tough cookie.

 

He was still a damn good rider - but not quite the unstoppable force we saw every week at Cowley between 1985 and 1989.

 

All the best

Rob

[stratton]

They were all raw novices once. One line tracks are usually down to poor preperation. Go to Peterborough when it's slick and you'll struggle to stay awake. Go when it's prepared well such as the World Cup event a couple of years ago and you wont want the meeting to end.

Are riders now a days as skilful at handling deep tracks as years ago?Remember at kings lynn in the world cup recently was deep and some riders struggled and got out of shape.?

 

Hans just didn't have a very good 1990 - well not by his own standards. He was pretty good the whole year around, but if anything he got even better just before a World Final. There was less avidence of that in 1990. His average was down by about a point from 11.00 to just above 10.00. Which was low for Hans. And he looked more beatable than usual heading into the World Final - including at Bradford in the Gold Cup Final.

 

I was much more surprised when he didn't win in 1991. He was flying for much of July and August 1991, culminating with winning 13 out of 13 races on the Bank Holiday before the World Final. But he just had a bad meeting. Well I say bad meeting, but third in the world is still not too shabby. But I did expect Hans to win in 1991.

 

And Erik's accident did definitely affect him. At the time of Erik's accident, Hans's BL average was around 11.30. By the end of 1989, it was down to less than 11.00. And then he never got that high again. The main reason is Hans stopped taking the chances when he missed the gate at BL level. Before he was always quite aggressive pushing others riders aside on the first/second bend, even if it was a challenge match or a second half race. Not dirty as such, but quite hard. Hans at his peak was quite a tough cookie.

 

He was still a damn good rider - but not quite the unstoppable force we saw every week at Cowley between 1985 and 1989.

 

All the best

Rob

Credit where it is due that period you said Rob 85/89 i saw about nearly 2 full seasons of him. There the new grandstand was lush,so it was a good friday night out.Hans i was not a fan,didnt dislike him as a person maybe he was like Steve Davis was for 10 years to good.Changed my mind about him, remember seeing him in the IVAN farewell 6 in race at hyde rd he was hammering round there. He was exciting to watch and later went on and won a BLRC.And i was wrong yet again i said he would never win that meeting there as long as it was at hyde rd.

[WIE-JA]

Are riders now a days as skilful at handling deep tracks as years ago?Remember at kings lynn in the world cup recently was deep and some riders struggled and got out of shape.?

 

 

The track was a bit patchy/inconsistant at the WC last year but quite good. The meeting was important and the racing was hard and the ocasional mistake was made. Tracks are generally a lot deeper in Sweden and Poland than in England and riders handle them OK. They are not a different breed of human now. If tracks were prepared as they were in the '60s then riders would just adapt to it. Oh and some tracks got that slick in the '60s several riders tried road tyres.