Does This Show You Maybe It Is Easier For The Elite To Win World Titles Now?

[stratton]

Well of course up until Buzz Burrows came along Ronnie was one of,if not the most naturally talented riders of the modern era.Probably too talented in a way and as he say's he didn't have to work hard for the results.It was all a bit too easy and he then later lacked that work hard mentality that "lesser" riders like Briggo + Ivan had to have to achive what they did.Guess his enthusiasm waned and he looked to auto racing.Some riders or sportspeople in general are so tunnel visioned on being no.1.Ove,Ole,Ivan and i would even say Egon Müller when you hear him talk about himself.......Ronnie didn't have that same attitude to speedway

Dont mention Buzz Burrows Iris was a big Malc Holloway fan and in Malcs later career had great races with Buzz see a few.Ronnie i only see twice wish i had seen him more times .Watched him on the you tube interview with Briggo i was engrossed 2 great legends talking Ronnie so laid back not a bighead levelheaded so calm.Briggo was great also in the interview new how important Ronnie was to his career.Moore got 2 titles a legend did amaze me how calm and laid back he was.

[norbold]

Ronnie Moore always said that the team was more important to him than his own individual career. He said he used to see other riders in the pits on World Championship night getting very tense and nervous but he said he thought that was just silly and he said he always saw it as just another meeting. As iris said above though he was probably the most naturally gifted rider speedway has ever seen along maybe with Michael Lee. There may have been others who eventually became more successful but they had to work harder to achieve it.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Well of course up until Buzz Burrows came along Ronnie was one of,if not the most naturally talented riders of the modern era.

 

Yep - and both great Dons' captains!!!

[BOBBATH]

Who the heck is Buzz Burrows??????

[waiheke1]

the most naturally talented speedway rider ever - Rickardson, Crump, Pedersen wouldn't have won a GP between them if only he'd had the proper backing from sponsors

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

the most naturally talented speedway rider ever - Rickardson, Crump, Pedersen wouldn't have won a GP between them if only he'd had the proper backing from sponsors

 

I guess you think you're being ultra witty... My advice though is don't give up the day job...

[chunky]

Who the heck is Buzz Burrows??????

 

Quite a well-known figure in British speedway, Bob. Had a pretty lengthy career in the lower leagues, with some odd appearances in the EL. I do recall one live EL match where Buzz (real name Mark) was guesting, and Millard didn't have a clue who he was, even though he'd already been around a while. One of the most exciting riders you'll ever see, and had quite a cult following during his spell at Plough Lane. A true crowd-pleaser.

 

Steve

[oldace]

Well of course up until Buzz Burrows came along Ronnie was one of,if not the most naturally talented riders of the modern era.Probably too talented in a way and as he say's he didn't have to work hard for the results.It was all a bit too easy and he then later lacked that work hard mentality that "lesser" riders like Briggo + Ivan had to have to achive what they did.Guess his enthusiasm waned and he looked to auto racing.Some riders or sportspeople in general are so tunnel visioned on being no.1.Ove,Ole,Ivan and i would even say Egon Müller when you hear him talk about himself.......Ronnie didn't have that same attitude to speedway

 

2 World Titles was scant reward for a rider of Ronnie's undoubted class. As you say probably the most natural talent ever on a speedway bike. Compare that to Briggo, who its fair to say had minimum natural talent yet worked so hard and determinely to get to where he did. Likewise Ivan, sheer willpower and single minded determination overcame a lack of natural talent to turn him into the greatest of all time.

 

Lots of naturally talented riders for who it all comes easily fail to make it though, look at Joe Screen, certainly one of the most natural riders in the last 25 years but never turned it into superstardom

[chunky]

2 World Titles was scant reward for a rider of Ronnie's undoubted class.

 

Quite agree. Makes you wonder what would have happened had he not had that layoff.

 

Compare that to Briggo, who its fair to say had minimum natural talent yet worked so hard and determinely to get to where he did.

and

Lots of naturally talented riders for who it all comes easily fail to make it though, look at Joe Screen, certainly one of the most natural riders in the last 25 years but never turned it into superstardom

 

AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH! Please don't get this one going again!!!!!! Where's sidney???

 

Steve

[stratton]

Quite agree. Makes you wonder what would have happened had he not had that layoff.

 

 

and

 

 

AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH! Please don't get this one going again!!!!!! Where's sidney???

 

Steve

Quite agree. Makes you wonder what would have happened had he not had that layoff.

 

 

and

 

 

AAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH! Please don't get this one going again!!!!!! Where's sidney???

 

Steve

Chunky no what have you done? Moore was quality full stop chunky have you the averages from 1955-1965 need em for my collection thanks.

[Jim Blanchard]

I tend to look at big meeting consistency as opposed to league meeting consistency. Fundin finished in the top 3 of the World Final every year between 1956 to 1965. Translate that kind of form into a GP series and you've got a man who would have been hard to beat.

 

I agree with Norbold. Fundin would have reigned supreme between 1956 and 1963, and won 6 maybe 7 out of the 8 titles. Briggo wouldn't have had to wait until 1964 though - he would have made it happen for him, like he did in the run-off for first place in 1957. He'd have won one title, and then been a leading contender between 1964 and 1967, adding another 2 or 3 titles. Briggo would maybe have won as many titles. Fundin would have won more. Sadly the guy who may have missed out would have been Peter Craven, wnose World Final record was inconsistent. Craven could definitely beat the best on his day (and remember his World Final record was equal to beat of Briggs at the time of his death, with 2 titles each), but also he had one or two World Final stinkers. That may have cost him over a series. Craven's best form was in 1960 when he was one ride away from going through the whole World Championship unbeaten, so maybe he would have triumphed that season.

 

All the best

Rob

 

But is it not the mantra of the pro GP series fans (and I am not in the anti camp by any means) that it allows a rider to have some

Inconsistent meetings and it not prevent them prevailing and taking the title? We all know that Mark Loram winning the title without a GP win in 2000. I am not a statistician by any means, but I have looked at the figures of some of the top riders and their performance in the WC from 1954 - 1963.(Peter was to lose his life at Edinburgh that year, so we can only go to that point and include him)

 

Craven's average in that period in world finals was 9.6. Fundin's 11.7. Moore (who missed two) was 12.00 and Briggs 11.7. So taking out his missed two meetings Ronnie Moore had the best average for meetings ridden in the final and was twice world champion.

 

Peter Craven had four bad finals, '54 (his first) with 3 points (one more than Fundin for his first appearance though) '59 with 7 points, '61 - 6 points and '63 with 6 points but he crashed twice.

 

In the League his best period was around 1957 with an average of 11.10. In '62 it was 9.71 and '63. 10.75 when riding handicapped.

 

Its always worth remembering that Peter won the WC at the second attempt. Fundin 3rd, Moore 4th. and also Briggo 4th. And to compare great for great - Ivan Mauger 3rd attempt.

 

Those of you that think this is all just a cycnical ploy of a post to promote England's only double world champion you could be right..

 

My tribute web site to our best ever and most exciting rider. http://www.peter-craven.co.uk

Edited February 8, 2012 by Jim Blanchard

[stratton]

But is it not the mantra of the pro GP series fans (and I am not in the anti camp by any means) that it allows a rider to have some

Inconsistent meetings and it not prevent them prevailing and taking the title? We all know that Mark Loram winning the title without a GP win in 2000. I am not a statistician by any means, but I have looked at the figures of some of the top riders and their performance in the WC from 1954 - 1963.(Peter was to lose his life at Edinburgh that year, so we can only go to that point and include him)

 

Craven's average in that period in world finals was 9.6. Fundin's 11.7. Moore (who missed two) was 12.00 and Briggs 11.7. So taking out his missed two meetings Ronnie Moore had the best average for meetings ridden in the final and was twice world champion.

 

Peter Craven had four bad finals, '54 (his first) with 3 points (one more than Fundin for his first appearance though) '59 with 7 points, '61 - 6 points and '63 with 6 points but he crashed twice.

 

In the League his best period was around 1957 with an average of 11.10. In '62 it was 9.71 and '63. 10.75 when riding handicapped.

 

Its always worth remembering that Peter won the WC at the second attempt. Fundin 3rd, Moore 4th. and also Briggo 4th. And to compare great for great - Ivan Mauger 3rd attempt.

 

Those of you that think this is all just a cycnical ploy of a post to promote England's only double world champion you could be right..

 

My tribute web site to our best ever and most exciting rider. http://www.peter-craven.co.uk

Jim why did Peter struggle a bit at times at Liverpool was he a complete novice had to learn his trade first.?Then went on to have a great career cruely cut short what sort of track was Liverpool was it big do you know?

[norbold]

You could well be right, Jim. Although, as I've said above, my feeling would be that Ove Fundin would have won more titles under a GP system, I think it really is almost impossible to say who would have won what in the period between 1956 and 1967. Any one of the Big Four (Five when Bjorn Knutson joined them and back to four after Peter Craven's tragic death or maybe three when Ronnie Moore wasn't riding...oh, you know what I mean!!!) could have won in any of the years. But it's all a great field for speculation for us old fogeys who were actually around at the time.

 

Sidney, Barry Briggs also struggled as a novice as did Ivan Mauger. Some are born great, some achieve greatness and some have greatness thrust upon them (Jerzy Szczakiel).

[BOBBATH]

Sadly-I just can't believe Peter Craven could have won a World Title under the GP system-Tommy Price or Fred Williams either!

[stratton]

You could well be right, Jim. Although, as I've said above, my feeling would be that Ove Fundin would have won more titles under a GP system, I think it really is almost impossible to say who would have won what in the period between 1956 and 1967. Any one of the Big Four (Five when Bjorn Knutson joined them and back to four after Peter Craven's tragic death or maybe three when Ronnie Moore wasn't riding...oh, you know what I mean!!!) could have won in any of the years. But it's all a great field for speculation for us old fogeys who were actually around at the time.

 

Sidney, Barry Briggs also struggled as a novice as did Ivan Mauger. Some are born great, some achieve greatness and some have greatness thrust upon them (Jerzy Szczakiel).

Was Knutson capable of winning more than one title? i never saw him so i have no knowledge myself.if it had been a gp format i dont think he would of won a world title.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Was Knutson capable of winning more than one title? i never saw him so i have no knowledge myself.if it had been a gp format i dont think he would of won a world title.

 

Before my time too - but remember he was one of the 'top five' who all received that handicap in league racing here, so I guess that he was basically considered on a par with the others (Craven, Moore, Briggs & Fundin). I think the general feeling at the time was that he had been the best rider NOT to win the title, 'til he did.. Looking back in the future people might think similarly of Gollob with his one world title, when we know he was certainly good enough to have won several..

[stratton]

Before my time too - but remember he was one of the 'top five' who all received that handicap in league racing here, so I guess that he was basically considered on a par with the others (Craven, Moore, Briggs & Fundin). I think the general feeling at the time was that he had been the best rider NOT to win the title, 'til he did.. Looking back in the future people might think similarly of Gollob with his one world title, when we know he was certainly good enough to have won several..

His record stacks up favourably ,and won it in a great era i think he retired at a quite young age did he start a business ?looked stylish.

[BOBBATH]

The first World Final I saw was 1965 when Bjorn won his first and only title-he'd been expected to win a couple before but always seemed to lack the big night temperament.He didn't do too good in the 1966 Final and I have my doubts if he could have won anymore after that-great rider nonetheless.