Does This Show You Maybe It Is Easier For The Elite To Win World Titles Now?

[Blackbird]

Sydney – I addressed this point above.

So Sckaziel wouildn’t have won in 73, Michanek, great rider that he was, would not have won in 74, and those titles would have likely gone to Mauger.

 

 

no in 73 Mich wouldve been clear winner of a gp series

[lucifer sam]

no in 73 Mich wouldve been clear winner of a gp series

 

Mauger was not far behind Michanek in domestic form in 1973 ahd way ahead of him in international form. It's difficult to look beyond Mauger between 1968 and 1975, only Olsen could have gone the distance and maybe have won one (maybe in 1972?).

 

Collins and Olsen would have then taken over between 1976 and 1978, while Lee would be my favourite for 1979.

 

All the best

Rob

[waiheke1]

Mauger was not far behind Michanek in domestic form in 1973 ahd way ahead of him in international form. It's difficult to look beyond Mauger between 1968 and 1975, only Olsen could have gone the distance and maybe have won one (maybe in 1972?).

 

Collins and Olsen would have then taken over between 1976 and 1978, while Lee would be my favourite for 1979.

 

All the best

Rob

 

Perhaps this particular debate should be resumed here http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forums/index.php?showtopic=50265&st=270.

 

FWIW, I'm inclined to go with Michanek in 73, on top of his domestic form he did win the Brit-Nordic and European titles, spearhead the Swedes to the Wolrd Pairs title and drop only a point in the WTC final - so Mauger only really outperformed him on the big night itself.

[oldace]

I just think OLDACE it is like chalk and cheese the one offs and the gps as they are now.As you said they won there titles within a 23 year span i think riding as it is now those three would of won more titles exspecially Mauger.I believe the gps would of been right up his alley and his professional outlook would of served him even better now.A great rider and for me very consistent.

 

Quite right Sidney, Ivan was a great rider and you may or may not be right about him winning more under a GP system. The point is it would be because a GP system rewards greatness, not because of the fact he was in it every year, he was in the world final every year from 1966 to 1979, 14 years in a row.

Edited January 17, 2012 by oldace

[stratton]

Quite right Sidney, Ivan was a great rider and you may or may not be right about him winning more under a GP system. The point is it would be because a GP system rewards greatness, not because of the fact he was in it every year, he was in the world final every year from 1966 to 1979, 14 years in a row.

Yes you are quite right it does REWARD and as much as i loved the old format my favourites maybe would not of won world titles. [ex] Lee 80 Jonsson 92 MAYBE Gundersen his 3 Titles .Because we all know how consistent Hans was i was not a fan but he would of won more titles.I am not AGAINST the series as you say it rewards i am against who gets in and how.

[oldace]

Yes you are quite right it does REWARD and as much as i loved the old format my favourites maybe would not of won world titles. [ex] Lee 80 Jonsson 92 MAYBE Gundersen his 3 Titles .Because we all know how consistent Hans was i was not a fan but he would of won more titles.I am not AGAINST the series as you say it rewards i am against who gets in and how.

 

I agree about Hans. Although in the main the actual world champions and the theoretical world champions under a GP would be roughly the same, not in the same years but roughly the same title, the exception to that for me would be the period 83 to 92, Nielsen could easily have took 10 straight titles in those years, he was that good

[Grachan]

 

 

Anyway, I’ve just bumped a post in which this topics was debated in some detail – discussion on the selections made may want to be continued there! Consensus seems to be that Fundin would have won 7 or 8 titles, Briggs 2 or 3, and Mauger 7. So say 18 titles vs the 15 they actually won. An improvement certainly , but nowhere near the 20 you were claiming somewhere earlier (tongue I cheek I know).

 

Not sure why Fundin would have won more and Briggs less. Nobody was close to Briggs in form in 1967 - and Fundin was a surprise winner. You'd have to have Briggs as the expected winner that year, although I don't know enough about the era to predict how other years would go.

[keef]

Feature on modest Marlborough-flyer Martin Ashby in the Gazette and Herald this week. Swindon teammate Barry Briggs said "Martin Ashby at one stage was the best rider in the world but didn't realise it".

Still chat to the unassuming Wiltshire legend on the Blunsdon terraces. I would put Mauger and Fundin slightly ahead of Briggo in the races I saw between them from 1963-1972. Best race I ever saw was Briggo-Ashby Swindon-Exeter about 68/69. Neck-and-neck for 4 laps, Crash won by wheel width.

[stratton]

Not sure why Fundin would have won more and Briggs less. Nobody was close to Briggs in form in 1967 - and Fundin was a surprise winner. You'd have to have Briggs as the expected winner that year, although I don't know enough about the era to predict how other years would go.

Grachan when i looked through the years what the results would of been if it had been the gps i give Briggo 6 titles.

 

Feature on modest Marlborough-flyer Martin Ashby in the Gazette and Herald this week. Swindon teammate Barry Briggs said "Martin Ashby at one stage was the best rider in the world but didn't realise it".

Still chat to the unassuming Wiltshire legend on the Blunsdon terraces. I would put Mauger and Fundin slightly ahead of Briggo in the races I saw between them from 1963-1972. Best race I ever saw was Briggo-Ashby Swindon-Exeter about 68/69. Neck-and-neck for 4 laps, Crash won by wheel width.

Ashby was class, no doubt about it Briggo helped Martin in the1972 blrc at Belle vue made him believe in himself nearly won it.I think Briggoe,s overall head to head with Mauger he came out on top i dont know about Fundin i know there was a fierce rivary between them..

[norbold]

As someone who was around for part of the time, I think it is very difficult to say who would have won GP style World Championships between 1955 and 1964 when the Big 4 later joined by Bjorn Knutson to make it 5 reigned supreme but my own feeling is that Fundin would have been a very difficult man to beat from 1956 to 1963. In the Speedway Star and News yearly rankings he was ranked no. 1 every year from 1956 to 1963 except 1958 when he was no. 2 to Briggs. He was also no. 2 to Briggs in 1964. So taking the rankings as an overall guide to the year, Fundin would have won 7 and Briggs 2 between 1956 and 1964. Also in all that time, Briggs only made no. 2 on one occasion (1957). Of course Briggs came good after Fundin's peak period and may well have won in 1966 and 1967, but that still makes only 4 overall to Fundin's 7 if we give 1965 to Knutson.

[oldace]

As someone who was around for part of the time, I think it is very difficult to say who would have won GP style World Championships between 1955 and 1964 when the Big 4 later joined by Bjorn Knutson to make it 5 reigned supreme but my own feeling is that Fundin would have been a very difficult man to beat from 1956 to 1963. In the Speedway Star and News yearly rankings he was ranked no. 1 every year from 1956 to 1963 except 1958 when he was no. 2 to Briggs. He was also no. 2 to Briggs in 1964. So taking the rankings as an overall guide to the year, Fundin would have won 7 and Briggs 2 between 1956 and 1964. Also in all that time, Briggs only made no. 2 on one occasion (1957). Of course Briggs came good after Fundin's peak period and may well have won in 1966 and 1967, but that still makes only 4 overall to Fundin's 7 if we give 1965 to Knutson.

 

It's all just total conjecture. If the GP had never existed and all the world finals were won by the same riders who won the SGP 1995 to 2010 we would all be sitting here saying Leigh Adams would have been a multi world champion under a GP format, of course the reality is he wasn't, season long consistency never transferred to world titles for Leigh and who is to say it would have for anyone else

[stratton]

It's all just total conjecture. If the GP had never existed and all the world finals were won by the same riders who won the SGP 1995 to 2010 we would all be sitting here saying Leigh Adams would have been a multi world champion under a GP format, of course the reality is he wasn't, season long consistency never transferred to world titles for Leigh and who is to say it would have for anyone else

He never quite did it was good anough we all know that whoe,s to say he wouldnt of won a one off final..In his era i could only put Rickardsson Gollob, Crump Hancock in front of Leigh but those four were anough to stop him winning a title.Inc Pedersen as well thats your reason why he didnt win it.Leigh was very consistent still in the gps maybe he wasnt good anough who knows.

[norbold]

It's all just total conjecture. If the GP had never existed and all the world finals were won by the same riders who won the SGP 1995 to 2010 we would all be sitting here saying Leigh Adams would have been a multi world champion under a GP format, of course the reality is he wasn't, season long consistency never transferred to world titles for Leigh and who is to say it would have for anyone else

There's no doubt it's all a matter of conjecture and there can be no definitive answer to who would have if....

 

The only thing I would say about Leigh Adams as compared to Fundin and Briggs though is that yes, they were all three consistently good and at the top of the averages, but Adams did not have the selfish ruthlessness that Fundin and Briggs possessed when it came to individual events. Adams was a bit like Ronnie Moore in that respect; an excellent team man but without that "me me me" streak. So I'm not sure Adams would have even won a one-off final which would lessen his chances when looking back in history and saying he would have won a GP series if he couldn't even win a one-off. More conjecture though of course....

 

The Speedway Star & News rankings weren't just based on league averages but were the sum total of the opinions of speedway journalists world wide on how riders had performed in league, cup, Tests, individual events and the World Championship, so, in that sense it was the nearest thing you could get to an overall view of the riders form for each year.

Edited January 29, 2012 by norbold

[lucifer sam]

I tend to look at big meeting consistency as opposed to league meeting consistency. Fundin finished in the top 3 of the World Final every year between 1956 to 1965. Translate that kind of form into a GP series and you've got a man who would have been hard to beat.

 

I agree with Norbold. Fundin would have reigned supreme between 1956 and 1963, and won 6 maybe 7 out of the 8 titles. Briggo wouldn't have had to wait until 1964 though - he would have made it happen for him, like he did in the run-off for first place in 1957. He'd have won one title, and then been a leading contender between 1964 and 1967, adding another 2 or 3 titles. Briggo would maybe have won as many titles. Fundin would have won more. Sadly the guy who may have missed out would have been Peter Craven, wnose World Final record was inconsistent. Craven could definitely beat the best on his day (and remember his World Final record was equal to beat of Briggs at the time of his death, with 2 titles each), but also he had one or two World Final stinkers. That may have cost him over a series. Craven's best form was in 1960 when he was one ride away from going through the whole World Championship unbeaten, so maybe he would have triumphed that season.

 

All the best

Rob

[stratton]

I tend to look at big meeting consistency as opposed to league meeting consistency. Fundin finished in the top 3 of the World Final every year between 1956 to 1965. Translate that kind of form into a GP series and you've got a man who would have been hard to beat.

 

I agree with Norbold. Fundin would have reigned supreme between 1956 and 1963, and won 6 maybe 7 out of the 8 titles. Briggo wouldn't have had to wait until 1964 though - he would have made it happen for him, like he did in the run-off for first place in 1957. He'd have won one title, and then been a leading contender between 1964 and 1967, adding another 2 or 3 titles. Briggo would maybe have won as many titles. Fundin would have won more. Sadly the guy who may have missed out would have been Peter Craven, wnose World Final record was inconsistent. Craven could definitely beat the best on his day (and remember his World Final record was equal to beat of Briggs at the time of his death, with 2 titles each), but also he had one or two World Final stinkers. That may have cost him over a series. Craven's best form was in 1960 when he was one ride away from going through the whole World Championship unbeaten, so maybe he would have triumphed that season.

 

All the best

Rob

Great post Rob do you think Briggo would of won the same? 4 ?you are right about Craven 10 finals his record looks very inconsistent that always puzzed me.Also with Peter he didnt look a world beater when he first started out at Liverpool was that because he was a relative novice? Fundin certainly would of won more titles Rob can you tell me how i can get the stats for top AVERAGES (1955-65) ? i need them for my collection.

[norbold]

1960 is an interesting year because you are right about Craven's World Championship record that year of course, Rob. However, 1960 was my first year at speedway. I went every week to New Cross from May onwards and was an avid reader in my teenage exuberance of the speedway press and it seemed to me that Fundin was unbeatable. I remember being most surprised when I learned that he'd been involved in a three-way run off with Craven and Moore for the title. I thought he would have won it easily. So, to my way of thinking, over the whole season, he would have walked a 1960 GP. (Also, of course, neither Fundin nor Moore rode in the British qualifying rounds so Craven's unbeaten record on the way to Wembley did not include beating or even meeting either of them.)

 

Now here's an interesting snippet though. The late Keith Farman, who was a devoted Ove Fundin fan and a statistician of cosmic proportions, set out to record every race Fundin ever rode in and he once told me that the rider who beat Fundin more times during his career than any other was not Briggs but Peter Craven. So make of that what you will!

 

National League Averages for 1960 show Fundin well in front, though these are not CMAs but actual Match Averages including Bonus Points:

 

Fundin: 16:00 (To emphasis his "selfish" nature this includes no bonus points at all!)

Craven: 13.90 (Includes 14 bonus points)

Briggs: 13.70 (6 BPs)

Knutson:13.51 (4 BPs)

Moore: 13.15 (25 BPs)

Edited January 29, 2012 by norbold

[stratton]

1960 is an interesting year because you are right about Craven's World Championship record that year of course, Rob. However, 1960 was my first year at speedway. I went every week to New Cross from May onwards and was an avid reader in my teenage exuberance of the speedway press and it seemed to me that Fundin was unbeatable. I remember being most surprised when I learned that he'd been involved in a three-way run off with Craven and Moore for the title. I thought he would have won it easily. So, to my way of thinking, over the whole season, he would have walked a 1960 GP. (Also, of course, neither Fundin nor Moore rode in the British qualifying rounds so Craven's unbeaten record on the way to Wembley did not include beating or even meeting either of them.)

 

Now here's an interesting snippet though. The late Keith Farman, who was a devoted Ove Fundin fan and a statistician of cosmic proportions, set out to record every race Fundin ever rode in and he once told me that the rider who beat Fundin more times during his career than any other was not Briggs but Peter Craven. So make of that what you will!

 

National League Averages for 1960 show Fundin well in front, though these are not CMAs but actual Match Averages including Bonus Points:

 

Fundin: 16:00 (To emphasis his "selfish" nature this includes no bonus points at all!)

Craven: 13.90 (Includes 14 bonus points)

Briggs: 13.70 (6 BPs)

Knutson:13.51 (4 BPs)

Moore: 13.15 (25 BPs)

Maybe i am wrong Norbold, was this because Fundin was a white liner? (hard with it)At hyde rd Craven regularly beat Fundin there as we know a white liner whould struggle at the big wide Hyde Rd.

[norbold]

You're certainly right about Fundin. His preferred line was round the inside though being the world class rider he was, he would adapt as necessary and use whatever line he thought would win him the race. I should emphasise that Keith's statistics made it very clear that Fundin beat every other rider more times than they beat him, so he beat Craven more times than Craven beat him and it was just that Craven beat him more times than Briggs did.You may be right about why Craven beat him more times than any other rider and it could be that Craven's superiority at Hyde Road led to this statistic.

[stratton]

You're certainly right about Fundin. His preferred line was round the inside though being the world class rider he was, he would adapt as necessary and use whatever line he thought would win him the race. I should emphasise that Keith's statistics made it very clear that Fundin beat every other rider more times than they beat him, so he beat Craven more times than Craven beat him and it was just that Craven beat him more times than Briggs did.You may be right about why Craven beat him more times than any other rider and it could be that Craven's superiority at Hyde Road led to this statistic.

Thanks Norbold learned a bit more,pictures i have of Fundin Norwich [ ec ] indicated he rode the line alot.He didnt win titles by doing just that like you said.Could Craven gate? or a in out racer i dont really know looking back Norbold that was a mega strong era great champions hardly mentioning UNDERMENTIONED great Ronnie Moore.

[iris123]

i dont really know looking back Norbold that was a mega strong era great champions hardly mentioning UNDERMENTIONED great Ronnie Moore.

Well of course up until Buzz Burrows came along Ronnie was one of,if not the most naturally talented riders of the modern era.Probably too talented in a way and as he say's he didn't have to work hard for the results.It was all a bit too easy and he then later lacked that work hard mentality that "lesser" riders like Briggo + Ivan had to have to achive what they did.Guess his enthusiasm waned and he looked to auto racing.Some riders or sportspeople in general are so tunnel visioned on being no.1.Ove,Ole,Ivan and i would even say Egon Müller when you hear him talk about himself.......Ronnie didn't have that same attitude to speedway