iris123 Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 EVERYONE could Qualify. I refer the gentleman to the answer given previously which clearly states this was not the case Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted January 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 But there has been a continual line of youngsters that have come in and generally stayed in.Or if not at least been given a chance....Jonsson,Hampel,Lindgren,Bjerre,Sajfutdinov,Holder.Others that couldn' stay the pace like Chrzanowski,Kasprzak,Woffinden,Laguta.I think talent is never constant anyway,in that there was never a period when a potential world champion per year was produced.Some periods might have been better than others,but i don't think we are in such a bad state at the moment.And potential GP stars of the future are on their way in Ward,Janowski and hopefully one or two of the Danish kids.And oops,but i forgot Lindbäck as well.......in one of those groupings Iris i know usually in the cycle it does work its self out the 3 old uns now i believe will be a force for a while yet.If i had a punt on two riders too emerge i think Janowski not original and Linus Sundstrom i rate him stylish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIE-JA Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Which riders with the ability to win the World title have missed out in recent seasons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted January 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 Which riders with the ability to win the World title have missed out in recent seasons? Which riders with the ability to win the World title have missed out in recent seasons? You dont know do you until you have been given a chance.People improve at different knots,i found riders over the years improved by getting chances.Lee, Collins ,came in and got on the pace quickly winning world class events.Like i said i only see 4 riders good anough at the moment to win it Jonsson has the ability but maybe he has missed his chance.Is only 4 good anough because not alot of new blood is getting fed into the system quickly anough out of the 4 three are VETERANS.? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryW Posted January 13, 2012 Report Share Posted January 13, 2012 I brought Jack Young in to the discussion. Why? Because it is relevent. He would not have had a prayer of getting in to the GP Series these days. Surely someone capable of winning not 1 but 2 World Titles would be capable of finishing in the top 3 of a GP Qualifying competition which doesn't contain the top riders in the World. Young MAY not have been given a place in the series in the year of his first win, but surely he would have been there after that... You dont know do you until you have been given a chance.People improve at different knots,i found riders over the years improved by getting chances.Lee, Collins ,came in and got on the pace quickly winning world class events.Like i said i only see 4 riders good anough at the moment to win it Jonsson has the ability but maybe he has missed his chance.Is only 4 good anough because not alot of new blood is getting fed into the system quickly anough out of the 4 three are VETERANS.? The SGP doesn't sit in isolation to the rest of World speedway. All the guys that race in it also race in various leagues around the World, and in various other International level events. The younger guys get plenty of opportunity to test themselves against the very best in these events, and also to prove themselves against the "contenders" in the Qualifying meetings. When making picks, IMG don't ignore guys that fail in the qualifiers but consistently do well in the leagues. The only slightly sad thing is that they feel they need to keep gifting a place to an undeserving Brit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIE-JA Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 You dont know do you until you have been given a chance.People improve at different knots,i found riders over the years improved by getting chances.Lee, Collins ,came in and got on the pace quickly winning world class events.Like i said i only see 4 riders good anough at the moment to win it Jonsson has the ability but maybe he has missed his chance.Is only 4 good anough because not alot of new blood is getting fed into the system quickly anough out of the 4 three are VETERANS.? There has been some good young riders given/qualified for a chance in the GPs. Laguta was hardly ancient last year, Sayfutdinov was what? 18/19 when he made his debut, Ward was offered a chance despite failing in the QUALIFYING rounds, Hampel made his debut at a young age etc,etc. If a rider is good enough and comercial enough he will get a chance to go for the WC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted January 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 There has been some good young riders given/qualified for a chance in the GPs. Laguta was hardly ancient last year, Sayfutdinov was what? 18/19 when he made his debut, Ward was offered a chance despite failing in the QUALIFYING rounds, Hampel made his debut at a young age etc,etc. If a rider is good enough and comercial enough he will get a chance to go for the WC. Comercial shouldnt really come into it ,most of them [ie] Hampel didnt go bang straight into the series full time.I like it when riders go in sometimes and just grasp there chance.I dont think much will change in the series if i would change things it would be 8 top riders qualify.Maybe 4 get chosen say riders you know have done well and the public like.[ ex] i would pick Ward janowski Batchelor sundstrom .Then have a one off qualifier 16 riders going for 4 spots for the prize of being in the g.p.Be happy with that more opportunity there, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 There has been some good young riders given/qualified for a chance in the GPs. Laguta was hardly ancient last year, Sayfutdinov was what? 18/19 when he made his debut, Ward was offered a chance despite failing in the QUALIFYING rounds, Hampel made his debut at a young age etc,etc. If a rider is good enough and comercial enough he will get a chance to go for the WC. Says it all really. :sad: Suppose that's why Ward got a pick. Great Rider, young, marketable - yes - a GREAT way to pick a World Champion. One problem - he didn't QUALIFY!!! :mad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryW Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Comercial shouldnt really come into it ,most of them [ie] Hampel didnt go bang straight into the series full time.I like it when riders go in sometimes and just grasp there chance.I dont think much will change in the series if i would change things it would be 8 top riders qualify.Maybe 4 get chosen say riders you know have done well and the public like.[ ex] i would pick Ward janowski Batchelor sundstrom .Then have a one off qualifier 16 riders going for 4 spots for the prize of being in the g.p.Be happy with that more opportunity there, So...Just to get this right. You would be happy with just ditching the meeting wildcard and having another full time rider there from the qualifying final? That seems to be the only change you are suggesting to the current system. Or is it the riders that are picked that you have a problem with? If so, do you really think that Janowski, Batchelor and Sundstrom are better than Lindgren, Nicki Pedersen and Harris (OK, I'll give you the last one, but not the other two!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIE-JA Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Comercial shouldnt really come into it ,most of them [ie] Hampel didnt go bang straight into the series full time.I like it when riders go in sometimes and just grasp there chance.I dont think much will change in the series if i would change things it would be 8 top riders qualify.Maybe 4 get chosen say riders you know have done well and the public like.[ ex] i would pick Ward janowski Batchelor sundstrom .Then have a one off qualifier 16 riders going for 4 spots for the prize of being in the g.p.Be happy with that more opportunity there, Commercial has to come into it as at the end of the day it is a business. Under your plan there it only increases the chances of qualifying through the rounds by one rider. Your ideal plan is almost identical to what is in place now. 8 from the previous season, 3 from the qualifyer and then some random picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 So...Just to get this right. You would be happy with just ditching the meeting wildcard and having another full time rider there from the qualifying final? That seems to be the only change you are suggesting to the current system. Or is it the riders that are picked that you have a problem with? If so, do you really think that Janowski, Batchelor and Sundstrom are better than Lindgren, Nicki Pedersen and Harris (OK, I'll give you the last one, but not the other two!!) You never know - they MIGHT be, on the night, if they had the chance. BUT - we will never know - will we??? ...............................and THAT is the crux of the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIE-JA Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 You never know - they MIGHT be, on the night, if they had the chance. BUT - we will never know - will we??? ...............................and THAT is the crux of the problem. Richard Hall might win a one off style world Championship if he got the chance. But we'll never know. At the end of the day there can only be one World Champion per season. How many World Champions has there been and how many thousands of speedway riders have there been over the years? Very slim odds of winning it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryW Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 You never know - they MIGHT be, on the night, if they had the chance. BUT - we will never know - will we??? ...............................and THAT is the crux of the problem. But it's not about ONE NIGHT any more, it's about 12 nights... They aren't as good as them in the league matches they race, so why would we expect them to be better in World Championship matches? Any rider who constantly delivers to the standard of riders like Nicki and Freddie in the various leagues and international matches generally gets an invite if they don't make it through the qualifiers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 But it's not about ONE NIGHT any more, it's about 12 nights... They aren't as good as them in the league matches they race, so why would we expect them to be better in World Championship matches? Any rider who constantly delivers to the standard of riders like Nicki and Freddie in the various leagues and international matches generally gets an invite if they don't make it through the qualifiers... Perhaps I didn't make it plain - I mean't that they MIGHT beat them in the QUALIFIERS for a place the GPs - if everyone had a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIE-JA Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Perhaps I didn't make it plain - I mean't that they MIGHT beat them in the QUALIFIERS for a place the GPs - if everyone had a chance. No you didn't make it plain. Bet Janowski and Sundstrom are in the qualifiers next year for the GPs. Batch has already lost his chance through injury in the Australian Championships (the incident has been mentioned a couple of times on other threads ). The Australian champs are used by their authorities to decide who goes into the GP qualifying rounds the same as the British Final is and most likely other countries. But because of the permanent wildcard system there is still a slim chance for riders in Batchelors situation. Wouldn't have had that chance in the old days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryW Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Perhaps I didn't make it plain - I mean't that they MIGHT beat them in the QUALIFIERS for a place the GPs - if everyone had a chance. The type of riders you refer to have a chance to go through the qualifying rounds and maybe get lucky on the night and join the series even if they aren't at the top of the World. Others have done it... Without wanting to knock the guy, the issues of single match qualifying rounds were proved by young Artem in 2011. He romped through the qualifying final in Vojens defeating riders like Lindback, Lindgren, Kolodziej, Zetterstrom, Jonasson and Harris. Once he got into the series he was completely outclassed apart from one round...at Vojens. He clearly loves the track there and can compete at the top level on that track, but none of the other GP venues. It maybe wasn't so much of a problem in the one off final days if it went without a big name or two for a year due to a mid season injury or bike problems in a qualifying meeting, but a 12 round series needs the best to be there, and a rider's form across a whole season is surely a far better way to judge than one off meetings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Commercial has to come into it as at the end of the day it is a business. Sorry, I don't agree at all. While it is a business - and unfortunately, I think that this has ruined many sports - why do we even have any kind of qualification system, then? I'm not just talking about speedway either. Yeah, let's just make a new Premier League, and kick out all the unfashionables like Wigan, Stoke, and whoever? First and foremost, sport - all sport - is about performance and achievement, and championships should not be hand-picked. I don't have a problem with one or two wild cards, particularly (as in the case of Sayfutdinov) if someone was "robbed" of their rightful place due to injury, but nobody should be able to say, "We don't want you, but we want him" and get away with it. Steve 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 Sorry, I don't agree at all. While it is a business - and unfortunately, I think that this has ruined many sports - why do we even have any kind of qualification system, then? I'm not just talking about speedway either. Yeah, let's just make a new Premier League, and kick out all the unfashionables like Wigan, Stoke, and whoever? First and foremost, sport - all sport - is about performance and achievement, and championships should not be hand-picked. I don't have a problem with one or two wild cards, particularly (as in the case of Sayfutdinov) if someone was "robbed" of their rightful place due to injury, but nobody should be able to say, "We don't want you, but we want him" and get away with it. Steve That maybe the ideal but it has never been the case. Seeding for commercial reasons is less rife now than it was in the seventies. In 1970 the pole were seeded int 6 places in the final In 1973 They had 5 seeds In 1976 they had 4 In 1979 they dad 3 That equates to a over quarter of the field in those 4 finals being seeded It wasnt just the Poles though 1956 Craven seeded, Briggs in 58, Moore in 1960. Pete Collins was seeded straight to the inter continental final in 1977. The list goes on. The Brits had 4 guaranteed places in 1978, an injustice because we had probably 8 riders worthy of a place but the nature of qualyfiing that year meant it was impossible for more than 4 to make it. That was simply a commercial excercise, most of the Poles were of a standard no wher near good enough to merit seeding. It was recognised that a World Final without Craven, Briggo or Moore as defending champions was less of a commercial puller, hence they were given places. The GP now affords better chances to get into it than the old style event ever did where qualification depended on your country of birth and what league you raced in. Like I said on another thread, Peter Collins top of the averages in 1980 yet not allowed to enter in 1981 because he only wanted to race on the continent. There are hundreds of examples of the unfairness of the old system, it was riddled with faults and while what we have now may not be perfect it is a sight fairer to all than the old way was 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted January 14, 2012 Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 You have in your own words already condemed the previous system from the 30s through to the 90s. ... At the moment there is an Australian championship going on whith a number of riders i have hardly heard of.All are in what is in effect a qualifier for the GPs. Er, no I certainly have not... your rather curious interpretation of things is NOT "my own words". And please explain in what possible way is the Australian championship "in effect a qualifier for the GPs"..? You seem to have suffered a sense transplant!!! And as Iris has pointed, it certainly was NOT the case that EVERY rider had the chance to become World Champion under the old system. But under the old system it was infinitely more so than is the case today. My take is when the top boys Mauger Briggo Olsen reached the veteran stages there were loads of young quality riders to step in and fill the void.Now it isnt the case outside of Ward i dont see anyone yet coming through to that level.That is because alot of them are not getting pushed quick anough to test themselves and aquire the exsperience to reach the top. sidney gets a lot of stick but this is a massively valid point. Would be nice to see it addressed instead of spurious points about African riders in the '70s missing out!! Commercial has to come into it as at the end of the day it is a business. Under your plan there it only increases the chances of qualifying through the rounds by one rider. Your ideal plan is almost identical to what is in place now. 8 from the previous season, 3 from the qualifyer and then some random picks. The Olympics is a massive commercial enterprise (check out the price of tickets for the 100 metres final!) but you know what, Usain Bolt isn't seeded into the Final and if he was to cock up as he did in the World Championships he'd be out... It's what called SPORT. If we want a 'circus' then fair enough... I prefer it to be a competitive sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted January 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2012 So...Just to get this right. You would be happy with just ditching the meeting wildcard and having another full time rider there from the qualifying final? That seems to be the only change you are suggesting to the current system. Or is it the riders that are picked that you have a problem with? If so, do you really think that Janowski, Batchelor and Sundstrom are better than Lindgren, Nicki Pedersen and Harris (OK, I'll give you the last one, but not the other two!!) The ones you named have had there CHANCE NEW BLOOD needed If pedersen dosent get in the top 8 why should he be there is he going to stay in till he is 45 ?that cant be right.When are you going to know if JANOWSKI is good anough if he dosent get a chance does he wait till he is 30? God i hope you dont run the series TOP 8 certainly i love CRUMPY if he dosent get in top 8 he should have to qualify brutal but right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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