Does This Show You Maybe It Is Easier For The Elite To Win World Titles Now?

[stratton]

BRIGGS years active 1952-1976 (24years) 18 w.finals winner 4 placed 6 MAUGER years active 1957-81 (24 years) (1984 1 season home meeting,s only exeter) 14 w.finals winner 6 placed 4 FUNDIN years active 1951-1970 (19 years) 15 w.finals winner 5 placed 6 OLSEN years active 1967-1983 (16years) 12 w.finals winner 3 placed 3 CRAVEN years active 1951-1963 (12years) 10 w.finals winner 2 placed 2 KNUTSSON years active 1957-1966 (9years) 6 w.finals winner 1 placed 2 WILLIAMS years active 1947-1956 (9years) 4 w.finals winner 2 placed 1 MICHANEK years active 1965-1983 (18years) 11 w.finals winner 1 placed 1 MOORE years active 1950-1972 (22years) 15 w.finals winner 2 placed 3 YOUNG years active 1949-1964 (15years) 8 w.finals winner 2 placed 0 COLLINS years active 1971-1986) (15years) 8 w.finals winner 1 placed 1 PENHALL years active 1977- 1982 (5years) 3 w.finals winner 2 placed 0 LEE years active 1975- 1984 (9years] had unsuccessful comebacks in 85,86 91 brief cameo,s. 6 w.finals winner 1 placed 2 RICKARDSSON years active 1989-2006 (17years) 16 w.finals 4 one off finals winner 1 placed 1 12 gp series. winner 5 placed 4 total wins 6 placed 5 CRUMP years active 1991-present 1 one off final. 17 w.finals 16 gp series winner 3 placed 7 total wins 3 placed 7 GOLLOB years active 1988-present 2 one off final s 16 w.finals 14 gp series winner 1 placed 5 total wins 1 placed 5 HANCOCK years active 1989-present 2 one off final s 19 w.finals 17 gp series winner 2 placed 3 total wins 2 placed 3 NIELSEN years active 1977-1999 ( 22years) 19 w.finals 3 one off finals winner placed 6 5 gp series winner 1 placed 2 total wins 4 placed 8 GUNDERSEN years active 1979-1989 (10years) 8 w.finals winner 3 placed 1 Reading back i still maintain it was alot harder in YESTERYEAR no doubt about it.The elite not having to qualify can have october to /april planning there assault on the title.Unlike the old brigade having a slog before they even get to the final.

Edited January 12, 2012 by sidney

[JCookie]

Looks like one of them notepad files you get where everything is all over and full of random characters.

[Blazeaway]

Christ, it may as well be in Japanese.

[SCB]

I'll format it for you.

 

BRIGGS years active 1952-1976 (24years) 18 w.finals winner 4 placed 6

MAUGER years active 1957-81 (24 years) (1984 1 season home meeting,s only exeter) 14 w.finals winner 6 placed 4

FUNDIN years active 1951-1970 (19 years) 15 w.finals winner 5 placed 6

OLSEN years active 1967-1983 (16years) 12 w.finals winner 3 placed 3

CRAVEN years active 1951-1963 (12years) 10 w.finals winner 2 placed 2

KNUTSSON years active 1957-1966 (9years) 6 w.finals winner 1 placed 2

WILLIAMS years active 1947-1956 (9years) 4 w.finals winner 2 placed 1

MICHANEK years active 1965-1983 (18years) 11 w.finals winner 1 placed 1

MOORE years active 1950-1972 (22years) 15 w.finals winner 2 placed 3

YOUNG years active 1949-1964 (15years) 8 w.finals winner 2 placed 0

COLLINS years active 1971-1986) (15years) 8 w.finals winner 1 placed 1

PENHALL years active 1977- 1982 (5years) 3 w.finals winner 2 placed 0

LEE years active 1975- 1984 (9years] had unsuccessful comebacks in 85,86 91 brief cameo,s. 6 w.finals winner 1 placed 2

RICKARDSSON years active 1989-2006 (17years) 16 w.finals 4 one off finals winner 1 placed 1 12 gp series. winner 5 placed 4 total wins 6 placed 5 CRUMP years active 1991-present 1 one off final. 17 w.finals 16 gp series winner 3 placed 7 total wins 3 placed 7

GOLLOB years active 1988-present 2 one off final s 16 w.finals 14 gp series winner 1 placed 5 total wins 1 placed 5

HANCOCK years active 1989-present 2 one off final s 19 w.finals 17 gp series winner 2 placed 3 total wins 2 placed 3

NIELSEN years active 1977-1999 ( 22years) 19 w.finals 3 one off finals winner placed 6 5 gp series winner 1 placed 2 total wins 4 placed 8 GUNDERSEN years active 1979-1989 (10years) 8 w.finals winner 3 placed 1

 

 

Just what does it show?

[iris123]

I'll format it for you.

 

Just what does it show?

 

I guess it backs up sidney's statement from yesterday

 

 

"The ones they rode in FINALS, they all got there on merit wasnt given to them on a plate had to qualify every year different test.What did briggo ride in 19 finals? legend, Dont get me wrong Gollob Crumpy Hancock i admire greatly and am privaliged to have seen all 3ride.. The only difference is WIE JA is come OCTOBER every year they Know they have qualified for the next year.If that had been the case for Briggo Fundin Mauger Olsen they would of had another 20 world titles between them. "

 

 

I am really interested to find out which 20 world championship wins sidney thinks were unfair and these chosen few would have won instead if there had been a GP system.Doesn't matter really though,because that is obviously evidence from sidney just how poor the old world finals were if approx 20 titles were won unfairly.It means in the yeasr these riders were active i.e from 1951-1984(that is 33 years),20 years were compromised!!!!!Pretty damning stats those......

Edited January 12, 2012 by iris123

[stratton]

I'll format it for you.

 

BRIGGS years active 1952-1976 (24years) 18 w.finals winner 4 placed 6

MAUGER years active 1957-81 (24 years) (1984 1 season home meeting,s only exeter) 14 w.finals winner 6 placed 4

FUNDIN years active 1951-1970 (19 years) 15 w.finals winner 5 placed 6

OLSEN years active 1967-1983 (16years) 12 w.finals winner 3 placed 3

CRAVEN years active 1951-1963 (12years) 10 w.finals winner 2 placed 2

KNUTSSON years active 1957-1966 (9years) 6 w.finals winner 1 placed 2

WILLIAMS years active 1947-1956 (9years) 4 w.finals winner 2 placed 1

MICHANEK years active 1965-1983 (18years) 11 w.finals winner 1 placed 1

MOORE years active 1950-1972 (22years) 15 w.finals winner 2 placed 3

YOUNG years active 1949-1964 (15years) 8 w.finals winner 2 placed 0

COLLINS years active 1971-1986) (15years) 8 w.finals winner 1 placed 1

PENHALL years active 1977- 1982 (5years) 3 w.finals winner 2 placed 0

LEE years active 1975- 1984 (9years] had unsuccessful comebacks in 85,86 91 brief cameo,s. 6 w.finals winner 1 placed 2

RICKARDSSON years active 1989-2006 (17years) 16 w.finals 4 one off finals winner 1 placed 1 12 gp series. winner 5 placed 4 total wins 6 placed 5 CRUMP years active 1991-present 1 one off final. 17 w.finals 16 gp series winner 3 placed 7 total wins 3 placed 7

GOLLOB years active 1988-present 2 one off final s 16 w.finals 14 gp series winner 1 placed 5 total wins 1 placed 5

HANCOCK years active 1989-present 2 one off final s 19 w.finals 17 gp series winner 2 placed 3 total wins 2 placed 3

NIELSEN years active 1977-1999 ( 22years) 19 w.finals 3 one off finals winner placed 6 5 gp series winner 1 placed 2 total wins 4 placed 8 GUNDERSEN years active 1979-1989 (10years) 8 w.finals winner 3 placed 1

 

 

Just what does it show?

Thanks SCB, The points really were to IRIS more than anyone 1./ We know the old system was cruel at times but the riders knew the rules before hand so it was EXCEPTED. 2./ It was a hell of a achievement to actually reach a final . 3./RIDERS were all on the same level playing field whether you were Barry Briggs or Clive Hitch you could all chase your dream, 4./Nothing was given to you not seeded through ,every year because of your past achievements you had to earn the right to QUALIFY. 2 massive examples of how now is EASIER and UNFAIR. Take Ivan Mauger a legend he rode 24 YEARS yet he only reached 14 FINALS.If he was riding now he would of BEEN put through at least 20 TIMES whats that a extra 6 chances at a title? Peter Collins again rode 15 YEARS only reached 8 finals todays format maybe another 4 goes at the title for PC.Nearly all those riders on that list would of had another 3 goes at the title each.Knockout in the old format was also not unfair most rounds 7 or 8 points were anough to get you through so no excuses.Surely people should see by getting put through is alot easier than ACTUALLY qualifying. Also add the AMOUNT of chances Gollob Crump Hancock Hampel Jonsson have had by not having to Qualify that tells you something.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

These are good points sidney - trouble is the apologists for the SGP system will use them (eg the bit about Peter Collins) as a way of turning things on their head (as is their wont) in making out the old system was "unfair".

It wasn't unfair - it was what's known as competitive sport - something which takes no prisoners.

The current system may to them seem fairer to a small elite (actually it is...) but to the detriment of those 'outside' trying to get in; and THAT'S what's wrong and what runs so contrary to the normal tenets of sporting competition...

[T.N.T.]

Proves nothing really as times have changed with the likes of Briggs, Mauger, Craven etc not having to travel to Sweden and Poland each week in their day.

 

 

With transport being so much more progressed, riders can now ride here there and everywhere ..... but some dont wish to spend time at airports getting back in to Britain for one meeting before flying out again.

 

 

In recent times, Gollob, Crump, Pedersen and Hancock have all lifted the title without appearing here and yet again the top 6 last season in the GP's were riders that mainly featured in Sweden and Poland.

[iris123]

These are good points sidney -

 

Still waiting again for an answer from sidney on the sentence he wrote and which years........

 

But here is something.....sidney writes that Ronnie Moore was active 22 years and got to 15 world finals.What he doesn't say is in those active years Ronnie spent 57,64,65, 66,67 + 68 away from the sport.stats look pretty good when you remember that little fact

 

Also look at Maugers stats.24 years active.But come on 1957+58 Ivan was a complete novice who could hardly break into the Wimbledon team,and then spent 59,60,61 + 62 on the other side of the world where it was impossible for him to qualify.Shows the downfall of the old system where a rider like Ivan was shut out of the world title challenge because he didn't ride in Britain at the time.So there straight away is 6 out of the 24 years where he stood basically no chance

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Also look at Maugers stats.24 years active.But come on 1957+58 Ivan was a complete novice who could hardly break into the Wimbledon team,and then spent 59,60,61 + 62 on the other side of the world where it was impossible for him to qualify.Shows the downfall of the old system where a rider like Ivan was shut out of the world title challenge because he didn't ride in Britain at the time.So there straight away is 6 out of the 24 years where he stood basically no chance

 

So are you suggesting that a modern day 'Ivan', riding only in Australia/NZ would have any chance in the current GP system..?

[WIE-JA]

So are you suggesting that a modern day 'Ivan', riding only in Australia/NZ would have any chance in the current GP system..?

 

The 'modern day Ivan' wouldn't have any chance in the GP system because at that stage of his career he was not good enough. Once he was good enough to challenge for World titles he didn't have too much problem constantly qualifying for the final. Gundersens record is bloody good, 10 years 8 World Finals.

[iris123]

So are you suggesting that a modern day 'Ivan', riding only in Australia/NZ would have any chance in the current GP system..?

You were the one who was saying the GPs aren't in your words "proper world championships" because not everyone gets a chance to qualify,presumably like in the old days.I am showing you that even in the old days not everyone had a chance to qualify.Any Aussie or New Zealanderhad to ride in the British leagues to get a chance.Surely you must see that your opinions are very faulty if a rider like Ivan Mauger was excluded from the world championships if he didn't have a British team.What sort of championship is that?What sort of world championship is it that the world champion is threatened into signing a contract with a British team or he wouldn't be allowed to defend his title.And here is another for you to answer in defence of your "proper" world championship.What about the Americans?They were excluded from the qualifying process from mid 50s through to mid 70s weren't they?Didn't Rick Woods go back to the States in '73 once he learnt that he wouldn't be allowed to qualify?It took Scott Autrey a couple of years of campaigning before he was allowed into the qualifiers.So all those years i guess you would agree were not "proper" world championships?

[lucifer sam]

_{The years active is wrong here in many cases. Hans Nielsen was riding in Denmark in 1976, the year before he came over to England in 1977. Likewise Erik Gundersen (who is just a little bit older than Nielsen) was also riding in Denmark for at least one season (if not more) in Denmark, before he came over to ride for Cradley in 1979.}

 

_{Even allowing for this, the number of years is wrong. Nielsen 1977-1999 is 23 years not 22. Likewise Gundersen 1979-1989 is 11 years not 10.}

 

_{Just a couple of examples. I imagine the years for just about every rider is inaccurate here.}

 

_{The old World Finals were great, but why do people pick apart the GP series just for the sake of it?}

 

_{All the best}

_Rob

[stratton]

_{The years active is wrong here in many cases. Hans Nielsen was riding in Denmark in 1976, the year before he came over to England in 1977. Likewise Erik Gundersen (who is just a little bit older than Nielsen) was also riding in Denmark for at least one season (if not more) in Denmark, before he came over to ride for Cradley in 1979.}

 

_{Even allowing for this, the number of years is wrong. Nielsen 1977-1999 is 23 years not 22. Likewise Gundersen 1979-1989 is 11 years not 10.}

 

_{Just a couple of examples. I imagine the years for just about every rider is inaccurate here.}

 

_{The old World Finals were great, but why do people pick apart the GP series just for the sake of it?}

 

_{All the best}

_Rob

_{The years active is wrong here in many cases. Hans Nielsen was riding in Denmark in 1976, the year before he came over to England in 1977. Likewise Erik Gundersen (who is just a little bit older than Nielsen) was also riding in Denmark for at least one season (if not more) in Denmark, before he came over to ride for Cradley in 1979.}

 

_{Even allowing for this, the number of years is wrong. Nielsen 1977-1999 is 23 years not 22. Likewise Gundersen 1979-1989 is 11 years not 10.}

 

_{Just a couple of examples. I imagine the years for just about every rider is inaccurate here.}

 

_{The old World Finals were great, but why do people pick apart the GP series just for the sake of it?}

 

_{All the best}

_Rob

Ok being a bit picky Briggo rode at 49 but you wouldnt include that would you? Gundersen was a junior before the 79 season if you want to go literally to there first ever lap impossible to Know that all the records are reasonably assessed.Michael Lee rode interval rides well before the age of 16 and Jason Crump did also.Lee rode in 1975 aged 16 Crump started his career in 1991. A silly post Rob also i and others are not against the gp series that is a myth we just say there are negative points against the series thats all.

[oldace]

Actually I believe Ivan would have won less under a GP system, not more. Almost certainly he wouldnt have won in 77 or 79. You could make a case for 73 but others like Olsen or Michanek were going as good as Ivan that year.

 

Where do you think these extra years would have come from for your elite few to have accumalated all these extra titles, or do you think there were plenty of undeserved winners in that period.

 

Incidentally seeding was rife in the old days, despite your assurances plenty riders were seeded to the world final, Briggo included.

 

Equally the so called open to everyone world final was actually anything but. Plenty of antipodeans were denied entry by virtue of not racing here, Peter Collins was denied the right to attempt to qualify in 1981 and he had topped the league averages the year before.

 

You talk about youngsters like Michael Lee not having the same opportunity today. In fact the opposite is true, if the GP had been in place Lee would certainly have been a wildcard in 1977 even if he hadn't qualified by right. Likewise Collins would have been a cert in 74, admittedly a year after his actual debut. Darcy Ward failed in the qualification process last year but was handed a place this year, OK other factors determined that he now cant accept that place

 

Your arguments are getting flimsier and flimsier, Ivan Mauger active on the world stage 1957 to 1984, thats all wrong. The first two years of that he was no more than a conference league novice, he then spent 4 years back in the southern hemispher learning his trade before coming back as the Ivan we all know in 1963. He only had three years before he was making World Finals, he then made every one for the next 13 years only failing to make it in his last 2 active years when by now in his 40s. Briggo was likewise although he was seeded one year and nearly denied the chance to enter in another

[stratton]

Still waiting again for an answer from sidney on the sentence he wrote and which years........

 

But here is something.....sidney writes that Ronnie Moore was active 22 years and got to 15 world finals.What he doesn't say is in those active years Ronnie spent 57,64,65, 66,67 + 68 away from the sport.stats look pretty good when you remember that little fact

 

Also look at Maugers stats.24 years active.But come on 1957+58 Ivan was a complete novice who could hardly break into the Wimbledon team,and then spent 59,60,61 + 62 on the other side of the world where it was impossible for him to qualify.Shows the downfall of the old system where a rider like Ivan was shut out of the world title challenge because he didn't ride in Britain at the time.So there straight away is 6 out of the 24 years where he stood basically no chance

The easiest way of explaining the difference how easier it is now is say MAUGER rode 24 years ok take 4 years off learning his craft riding in Australia[ect].ok say that leaves Ivan 20 chances in the gp series [no one off] meetings gpseries instead because he would of certainly had been in it. Would IVAN had one only won 6 titles out of 20?Dont think so LORAM showed you can win a title without winning a round. MAUGER would of been in his element himself and NIELSEN are the most consistent riders i have ever seen no doubt in my mind Mauger through every year over 12 rounds would of been tough to beat.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Er, I think you'll find that iris was "picking apart" the old World Championship system..!! It's strange that once any concerns are raised about the CURRENT system (obviously more important as a topic of debate because it IS the current system!), instead of trying to defend it, the main apologists want to pick the tiniest of holes in the previous system.

 

That's NOT what's required. The point is simple (though I do agree that in his zeal to illustrate, sidney may have over-complicated matters a tad!!): the current system does not allow enough 'entry' into it and is too pitched in favour of a few against the interests of the majority. The word I've used is that ii is less metrocratic (like democratic but based on merit...) than is ideal for a world championship.

 

The paucity of new blood has been starkly illustrated by the fact that in the past two years the actual whole series has been won by the two riders who've been in it from the start and are (unsurprisingly) also the oldest. That's no slur on them - they won fair and square and both were significant achievements.. But surely somehere in that fact lurks a slight concern that the SGP system is not really allowing the sport to move forward as much as would be ideal..

 

These are only my views (though shared by a number of others) - what would be nice to see would be a defence of the system which this year allowed ELEVEN from last years' 15 straight back in as opposed to say allowing open qualification each year.

Discussions about Ivan Mauger's form in the early '60s are not required!!

[stratton]

These are good points sidney - trouble is the apologists for the SGP system will use them (eg the bit about Peter Collins) as a way of turning things on their head (as is their wont) in making out the old system was "unfair".

It wasn't unfair - it was what's known as competitive sport - something which takes no prisoners.

The current system may to them seem fairer to a small elite (actually it is...) but to the detriment of those 'outside' trying to get in; and THAT'S what's wrong and what runs so contrary to the normal tenets of sporting competition...

I think you are right ,Collins a example of the gp series supporters using him as a weapon to say the old format was unfair.I think the opposite now is more UNFAIR at least P.C had a OPPORTUNITY to be eliminated and FAIL in certain years.

[BOBBATH]

If the GP series had existed for ever-we would see a number of official World Champions who would never have been champions(Sczaciel and Muller obviously)-and some new champions-how about Graham Warren for 1949 and 1950 for a start.Also Michanek in 1973.

[iris123]

Er, I think you'll find that iris was "picking apart" the old World Championship system..!! It's strange that once any concerns are raised about the CURRENT system (obviously more important as a topic of debate because it IS the current system!), instead of trying to defend it, the main apologists want to pick the tiniest of holes in the previous system.

 

I only ever talk about the old system,because it is brought into the discussion by a number of forumites who try to belittle the GPs.I am not the one who keeps mentioning Michael Lee or even for godsake Jack Young!!!!!You will notice i think if you pay attention here Parsloes that i am not the one who started a thread listing all these riders from days of oldwhen knights were bold

 

But now we are here just answer the questions put to you.....Parsloes:Do you agree that because riders like Ivan Mauger,Langfield,Airey couldn't enter the qualifiers when not riding in Britain that the old system was not a(your words) "proper world championship".Or put it another way.....would you say that as they knew the consquences,that by not riding in Britain they had made the choice not to ride in the world championships?Riders from America not being allowed to ride in the world championships meant it couldn't in your opinion be worthy of the title world championship?

 

 

Sidney please tell me which years and who was not a worthy world champion if you think your listed riders would have won another 20 world titles between them?I'll let you off a little bit as i guess you might have worked out by doing the maths that it is impossible for them to have hit that number......but make it 15 titles and years please?