The Old Brigade To Still Dominate The 2012 Gp. Series?

[JCookie]

FOUR riders from the entire speedway world don't have to qualify if they finish outside the top 8. Do you honestly believe all these new youngsters would suddenly appear if 4 more spaces were open to qualifiers? No.

[stratton]

FOUR riders from the entire speedway world don't have to qualify if they finish outside the top 8. Do you honestly believe all these new youngsters would suddenly appear if 4 more spaces were open to qualifiers? No.

Wouldnt be 4 would it? top 8 qualify 8 places up for grabs is that fair?No wildcards bottom 8 in the series against the best of the rest qualify for the right.Therefore it wouldnt matter if you were Gollob or Laguta maybe you are right the young riders wouldnt qualify they would have more of a chance though.

[JCookie]

It only needs 1 spot, if they're good enough then they'll qualify. Why the fascination with having sub-standard riders in just because they'll be something different to watch?

[stratton]

It only needs 1 spot, if they're good enough then they'll qualify. Why the fascination with having sub-standard riders in just because they'll be something different to watch?

Janowski Sundstrom [ex] are they sub standard ? is Pedersen ect always going to be in the series until he is 45?Top 8 thats fair surely the other 8 spots contest bottom 8 of series against another 8 riders who have consistently ridden well in events league racing.The qualifying system now is a joke Ward didnt even qualify as people harp on about yet we know he is in the top 8 riders in the world.The way it is now only 5 spots available is that FAIR do i want to see the likes of Pedersen ride from the age of 22 till aged 40.Yes i dont mind if he is out of top 8 but Qualifies on merit that is fine.

[oldace]

Janowski Sundstrom [ex] are they sub standard ? is Pedersen ect always going to be in the series until he is 45?Top 8 thats fair surely the other 8 spots contest bottom 8 of series against another 8 riders who have consistently ridden well in events league racing.The qualifying system now is a joke Ward didnt even qualify as people harp on about yet we know he is in the top 8 riders in the world.The way it is now only 5 spots available is that FAIR do i want to see the likes of Pedersen ride from the age of 22 till aged 40.Yes i dont mind if he is out of top 8 but Qualifies on merit that is fine.

 

Of course Ward is one of the best riders in the world (top 16 I would say not top 8) Thats why he was offered a wildcard place having failed in the quaifiers, an option that would not be open had it been the old World Final system, in that once you are out you are out. You post completely contrary opinions on the same thread on a daily basis. You argue that young riders like Ward are denied a chance in the current system, when its shown they are not you decry the system that allows it

[JCookie]

Yes but Pedersen is still in because he has the ability to win GPs as he showed last year. Once he drops to the standard of Laguta/Woffinden then he won't get a WC and someone else will. I think your idea about the bottom 7 against the best riders outside the GP is a good one and one i'd like to see, but it will inevitably be the likes of Lindgren/Lindback etc near the top anyway. Even when riders do qualify they're sometimes not good enough i.e Laguta.

[stratton]

Yes but Pedersen is still in because he has the ability to win GPs as he showed last year. Once he drops to the standard of Laguta/Woffinden then he won't get a WC and someone else will. I think your idea about the bottom 7 against the best riders outside the GP is a good one and one i'd like to see, but it will inevitably be the likes of Lindgren/Lindback etc near the top anyway. Even when riders do qualify they're sometimes not good enough i.e Laguta.

Thats fine and as you said maybe the young uns wont get through.I like all the 3 old uns if they are good anough at 50 thats not a problem.Laguta to me is a example of getting a chance and he will come back stronger set ups ect aquipment and i believe he is a good talent.

[Ghostwalker]

Yes but Pedersen is still in because he has the ability to win GPs as he showed last year. Once he drops to the standard of Laguta/Woffinden then he won't get a WC and someone else will. I think your idea about the bottom 7 against the best riders outside the GP is a good one and one i'd like to see, but it will inevitably be the likes of Lindgren/Lindback etc near the top anyway. Even when riders do qualify they're sometimes not good enough i.e Laguta.

 

Perhaps but then they would at least have managed to qualify thanks to their own performance rather then

being handed a wild card year after year. Personally i think that we actually would see a few suprises

if we scrapped the wild cards.

 

You could also say that some riders like Lindgren and Harris are considered better because they already are in the GP series.

To which they have been given wild cards many times. If another rider would have been given the same treatment perhaps he

would have done just as good or even better?

[The White Knight]

Why don't they just take it in turns to give the Championship to one of the top eight on a Rota basis? :angry:

[WIE-JA]

Why don't they just take it in turns to give the Championship to one of the top eight on a Rota basis? :angry:

 

The GP series would still have to be run to determine who is in the top 8. Might as well give the title to the bloke who finishes 1st. Ohh hang on, they do.

[stratton]

Perhaps but then they would at least have managed to qualify thanks to their own performance rather then

being handed a wild card year after year. Personally i think that we actually would see a few suprises

if we scrapped the wild cards.

 

You could also say that some riders like Lindgren and Harris are considered better because they already are in the GP series.

To which they have been given wild cards many times. If another rider would have been given the same treatment perhaps he

would have done just as good or even better?

Thats the whole point ghostwalker, like you said just being given the chance thats all it is. Both of those rders you named i like if he is 9th onwards he has to qualify for his next chance.

 

The GP series would still have to be run to determine who is in the top 8. Might as well give the title to the bloke who finishes 1st. Ohh hang on, they do.

Why don't they just take it in turns to give the Championship to one of the top eight on a Rota basis? :angry:

Why don't they just take it in turns to give the Championship to one of the top eight on a Rota basis? :angry:

How would you like it to be run TWK ? you have a strong view but havent said how you would like it run?

[The White Knight]

Thats the whole point ghostwalker, like you said just being given the chance thats all it is. Both of those rders you named i like if he is 9th onwards he has to qualify for his next chance.

 

 

 

How would you like it to be run TWK ? you have a strong view but havent said how you would like it run?

 

Sidney - I don't pretend to be an expert. I DO however HATE unfairness. To answer your question directly.

 

I would like the GP Series to be run in the same format as at present but with the Rider with MOST Points from five Rides being the Winner. I would have NO Semi Finals or Final. If a Rider has achieved a fifteen Point Maximum - he deserves to win the GP without having to Race off for it. Again it's down to FAIRNESS.

 

I don't care about extra Races - again this is NOT what the Championship should be about. The BEST Rider should win and not be prevented from doing so by an engine failure, fall etc. If he has has scored the MOST Points on the night - then - self evidently, he IS the best Rider.

 

After that it is REALLY simple. Instead of all these 'GIFTED' places - I would like to see NO, ZERO, ZILCH places awarded. I would like to see Qualifying Rounds for all Riders - no exclusions from that. If Greg Hancock failed to qualify - hard luck. He wouldn't be World Champion that year. Same for Crump, Gollob et al.

 

The WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP should mean something - not just having, more or less, the 'same old, same old' Riders EVERY year. If someone has a bad night - and they don't qualify for the Series, again tough - BUT - THAT is Sport - THAT is Competition. The Championship should be about beating ALL IN SUNDRY to reach the ultimate goal which is WORLD CHAMPION.

 

You did ask sidney....................................................................

Edited January 16, 2012 by The White Knight

[stratton]

Sidney - I don't pretend to be an expert. I DO however HATE unfairness. To answer your question directly.

 

I would like the GP Series to be run in the same format as at present but with the Rider with MOST Points from five Rides being the Winner. I would have NO Semi Finals or Final. If a Rider has achieved a fifteen Point Maximum - he deserves to win the GP without having to Race off for it. Again it's down to FAIRNESS.

 

I don't care about extra Races - again this is NOT what the Championship should be about. The BEST Rider should win and not be prevented from doing so by an engine failure, fall etc. If has has scored the MOST Points on the night - then - self evidently, he IS the best Rider.

 

After that it is REALLY simple. Instead of all these 'GIFTED' places - I would like to see NO, ZERO, ZILCH places awarded. I would like to see Qualifying Rounds for all Riders - no exclusions from that. If Greg Hancock failed to qualify - hard luck. He wouldn't be World Champion that year. Same for Crump, Gollob et al.

 

The WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP should mean something - not just having, more or less, the 'same old, same old' Riders EVERY year. If someone has a bad night - and they don't qualify for the Series, again tough - BUT - THAT is Sport - THAT is Competition. The Championship should be about beating ALL IN SUNDRY to reach the ultimate goal which is WORLD CHAMPION.

 

You did ask sidney....................................................................

I agree on everything TWK , five rides as well i am happy with that also My biggest disappointment in speedway was when Malc Holloway was eliminated from the 1982 British Final at Coventry i was gutted but as you reminded me TWK that is sport and COMPETITION and that is what makes sport so great.

[waiheke1]

It is a FACT riders now dont get the same chances, Woffinden because he was British got one generally 9 out of 10 wont if they do it will only be the odd round.Yanowski Sundstrom 2 ex[] they might be aged 22 ,23 before they are a fully fledged member even older the point is getting the chance at the EARLIEST chance possible.Therefore the chance to compete against the best and gain the top class exsperience in the pressured envireoment of the g.ps.Speedway keep the same old faces in generally ,look at snooker Ronnie Osullivan is COMMERCIALLY and is probably the best player in the world.When he plays he sells venues out but Hearn and co say he will have to Qualify for every event now because he has dropped out of the top 16.A FAIRER system for EVERYONE Hearn says the sport is evolving and it needs NEW stars speedway should be the same every year you have to earn the right.Top 8 fine after that you have to QUALIFY then the opportunity of drip feeding new talent emerges.

 

But Sidney the fact is that in any generation you only get two or three Michael Lees, you don’t get 9 or 10. Of the current generation, only Emil and Darcy bear comparison to Lee – and they have both been offered the chance through the much maligned permanent wildcard. Holder/Jankowski arguably the next best of the young talents – Holder qualified on merit, Jankowski I am sure will get his chance next year – and quite possibly may have done this year if it hadn’t been for the Polish 1 GP rider rule. As I’ve said previously, young riders if anything are advantaged by the system, as if they fail they have a second chance through the permanent wildcard. Also, the under 21 GP series is IMHO a great learning experience for them.

Also, if Ronnie O Sullivan is the best player in the world, can you explain how he is not ranked in the top 16. Doesn’t that indicate that he is actually no longer best in the world?

 

 

FOUR riders from the entire speedway world don't have to qualify if they finish outside the top 8. Do you honestly believe all these new youngsters would suddenly appear if 4 more spaces were open to qualifiers? No.

 

Wouldnt be 4 would it? top 8 qualify 8 places up for grabs is that fair?No wildcards bottom 8 in the series against the best of the rest qualify for the right.Therefore it wouldnt matter if you were Gollob or Laguta maybe you are right the young riders wouldnt qualify they would have more of a chance though.

 

There are currently 3 spots up for grabs, if they got rid of the wildcard there would be 7, without getting my calculator out I make that 4 extra spots. Perhaps you could let me know where I went wrong – did I forget to carry the one?

 

Anyway, I agree to a degree, but realistically they are always going to need to keep a couple of permanent wildcard slots up for grabs. This allows for a) entry for riders who are genuine contenders but missed out on qualifying due to injury (Emil/Nicki in 2010) allow the very top youngsters who miss out in qualifying to be given the chance in the series (Emil, Darcy, potentially Jankowski/Batchelor) c) to make sure that there is representation from each of the major speedway nations (probably a commercial necessity – and personally I have no issue with 1 spot guaranteeing a Brit or potentially a Dane/Swede a place. Most major sports have some slots “reserved” based on nationality rather than pure ability/results).

 

So: I’d have top 8 still qualify. 2 permanet wild cards. I would say two (at least one anyway) direct out of the “qualifying” meetings (otherwise you could potentially end up with NO new faces year on year!). And then 3 from the GP Challenge, to be contested by 9-14 from the GP (15^th doesn’t deserve another bite at the cherry in my view], 3-10 from the qualifiers and top 2 from the under 21 GP (to give yoof an extra chance). I also reckon the "challenge" meeting should be held over two days (to reduce the chance of one engine failure/bad decision deciding the outcome) similar to the 87 Amsterdam World Final, but with GP style semis/finals at each day to allow extra points to be added, and hence incrase the scope for a rider who had a poor day 1 to still scrape a place by bagging 24 pomts on the second day.

 

Why don't they just take it in turns to give the Championship to one of the top eight on a Rota basis?

 

Exactly the sort of post which makes people dismiss you as nothing more than bitter and stuck in the past –nothing constructive to add? In what year was the GP title not won on merit by the best rider in the world?

[stratton]

But Sidney the fact is that in any generation you only get two or three Michael Lees, you don’t get 9 or 10. Of the current generation, only Emil and Darcy bear comparison to Lee – and they have both been offered the chance through the much maligned permanent wildcard. Holder/Jankowski arguably the next best of the young talents – Holder qualified on merit, Jankowski I am sure will get his chance next year – and quite possibly may have done this year if it hadn’t been for the Polish 1 GP rider rule. As I’ve said previously, young riders if anything are advantaged by the system, as if they fail they have a second chance through the permanent wildcard. Also, the under 21 GP series is IMHO a great learning experience for them.

Also, if Ronnie O Sullivan is the best player in the world, can you explain how he is not ranked in the top 16. Doesn’t that indicate that he is actually no longer best in the world?

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are currently 3 spots up for grabs, if they got rid of the wildcard there would be 7, without getting my calculator out I make that 4 extra spots. Perhaps you could let me know where I went wrong – did I forget to carry the one?

 

Anyway, I agree to a degree, but realistically they are always going to need to keep a couple of permanent wildcard slots up for grabs. This allows for a) entry for riders who are genuine contenders but missed out on qualifying due to injury (Emil/Nicki in 2010) allow the very top youngsters who miss out in qualifying to be given the chance in the series (Emil, Darcy, potentially Jankowski/Batchelor) c) to make sure that there is representation from each of the major speedway nations (probably a commercial necessity – and personally I have no issue with 1 spot guaranteeing a Brit or potentially a Dane/Swede a place. Most major sports have some slots “reserved” based on nationality rather than pure ability/results).

 

So: I’d have top 8 still qualify. 2 permanet wild cards. I would say two (at least one anyway) direct out of the “qualifying” meetings (otherwise you could potentially end up with NO new faces year on year!). And then 3 from the GP Challenge, to be contested by 9-14 from the GP (15^th doesn’t deserve another bite at the cherry in my view], 3-10 from the qualifiers and top 2 from the under 21 GP (to give yoof an extra chance). I also reckon the "challenge" meeting should be held over two days (to reduce the chance of one engine failure/bad decision deciding the outcome) similar to the 87 Amsterdam World Final, but with GP style semis/finals at each day to allow extra points to be added, and hence incrase the scope for a rider who had a poor day 1 to still scrape a place by bagging 24 pomts on the second day.

 

 

 

Exactly the sort of post which makes people dismiss you as nothing more than bitter and stuck in the past –nothing constructive to add? In what year was the GP title not won on merit by the best rider in the world?

Basically in affect no real changes from you i dont agree on the wildcards that needs to change if no english man is at Cardiff so be it.On Osullivan he will drop out of the top 16 because he dosent play and want to play every tournament now there are about 2 every month he will not pick up ranking points.That was my point Osullivan is box office and fills out every hall he plays in yet Hearn has said things are changing because this is FAIRER for everyone and everyone has a chance of qualfying for every event,Also you are wrong about The White Knight he made that comment in jest and tonge in cheek.I feel the same as him and i am not bitter and not progressive he is the same i think.Your posts are good but there is no real change in your outlook its like you havent even acknowledged there could be changes which might be for the better.But your opinion and i respect that.

[waiheke1]

sydney - I have suggested change above, and on a spearate thread suggsted a way in which I envisaged a "knock-out" style world championship could be run in parrallel, so I am certainly not averse to some change.

 

But for the reasons I have outlined above there is no way they will abolish the permanent wildcards all together - do you not agree that if say Greg Hanock had a season ending injury first meeting in 2012 that it makes sense for him to still get a place in the 2013 GP. Or if say Jankowski/Ward/G Laguta topped their domestic averages, spearheaded their country to World Cup victory, won a GP as wildcard, but missed the GP challenge due to injury - would you want them to miss the 2013 GP?

 

Re: your O'Sullivan anology - if a GP rider chose not to ride in every event and finished outside the top 8, I doubt very much they would be given a permanent wildcard, as let's face it, if someone's not riding the meeting they are not very "box office" are they?

[stratton]

sydney - I have suggested change above, and on a spearate thread suggsted a way in which I envisaged a "knock-out" style world championship could be run in parrallel, so I am certainly not averse to some change.

 

But for the reasons I have outlined above there is no way they will abolish the permanent wildcards all together - do you not agree that if say Greg Hanock had a season ending injury first meeting in 2012 that it makes sense for him to still get a place in the 2013 GP. Or if say Jankowski/Ward/G Laguta topped their domestic averages, spearheaded their country to World Cup victory, won a GP as wildcard, but missed the GP challenge due to injury - would you want them to miss the 2013 GP?

 

Re: your O'Sullivan anology - if a GP rider chose not to ride in every event and finished outside the top 8, I doubt very much they would be given a permanent wildcard, as let's face it, if someone's not riding the meeting they are not very "box office" are they?

I think the Osullivan issue is that there being more tournaments ,means the bread and butter salary is better for all the lower ranked players .But in another way players like Osullivan will even have to qualify for the W.C. A s someone else said on a post ok leave a place for a injury/illness [ect] that would leave 7 spots up for grabs i would abolish the qualifying of getting into the g.ps not great in my opinion.That would leave maybe having 2 meetings 8 lowest gp riders against 8 of the RIDERS over the year or period who have impressed in leagues and events who want to enter also maybe the u21 champion.Therefore the most deserving will get in the 7 spots and over 2 meetings have a real chance of qualifying.I also think this would be great for speedway what a carrot for riders to aim for i really think this could work.If say Pedersen Lindgren have to go in the 2 meetings the cream over 2 meetings will get there anyway but having 7 spots what an incentive for a young and hungry rider trying to further his ambitsions.[ WONT HAPPEN THOUGH.]

[oldace]

Sidney you are completely missing the point, there are 11 spots available to qualify for. 8 of these are qualified for via a season long series of events, a rider must finish in the top eight against the best 16 in the world. This is the hardest most difficult means of qualifying ever devised in the championship history.

 

3 more places are available to via a different season long series of events, these are undoubtedly easier than the first method as the standard of riders is somewhat less, this method is available to anyone if they wish to pusue it.

 

Finally the last 4 places are allocated on a seeding basis taking a number of factors into account, this is exactly like the old system where a country would be allocated anything up to 6 places when they hosted a world final. Some countries merely hand picked these riders others held an in house qualification. Often this created finalists no where near good enough to be there, in other cases, like 1978, it limited the brits to a maximum of 4 places when in reality they had double that amount deserving of the chance to be there.

 

The current system is in no way perfect but rest assured it is 100 times fairer than what wen before. Like I have said I loved the old Worl Finals but in no way could they be termed a proper world championship like exists today.

Edited January 17, 2012 by oldace

[stratton]

Sidney you are completely missing the point, there are 11 spots available to qualify for. 8 of these are qualified for via a season long series of events, a rider must finish in the top eight against the best 16 in the world. This is the hardest most difficult means of qualifying ever devised in the championship history.

 

3 more places are available to via a different season long series of events, these are undoubtedly easier than the first method as the standard of riders is somewhat less, this method is available to anyone if they wish to pusue it.

 

Finally the last 4 places are allocated on a seeding basis taking a number of factors into account, this is exactly like the old system where a country would be allocated anything up to 6 places when they hosted a world final. Some countries merely hand picked these riders others held an in house qualification. Often this created finalists no where near good enough to be there, in other cases, like 1978, it limited the brits to a maximum of 4 places when in reality they had double that amount deserving of the chance to be there.

 

The current system is in no way perfect but rest assured it is 100 times fairer than what wen before. Like I have said I loved the old Worl Finals but in no way could they be termed a proper world championship like exists today.

What is SO difficult of the 8 top riders in that year QUALIFYING for the next year it is not rocket science is it ?.1 spot left for injury/ or someone unlucky which would leave 7 spots.Forget seeding putting riders [ ECT] through it is nearly like you are hand picking riders through is that a WC?no certainly not if it stays the way it is now i think it is UNFAIRER.The old way was brutal but Fairer in my opinion and stats show the best riders still generally won it apart from 73 and 83 not to bad was it?Have a gp series by all means but dont say it is BETTER and FAIRER because it isnt.

[oldace]

What is SO difficult of the 8 top riders in that year QUALIFYING for the next year it is not rocket science is it ?.1 spot left for injury/ or someone unlucky which would leave 7 spots.Forget seeding putting riders [ ECT] through it is nearly like you are hand picking riders through is that a WC?no certainly not if it stays the way it is now i think it is UNFAIRER.The old way was brutal but Fairer in my opinion and stats show the best riders still generally won it apart from 73 and 83 not to bad was it?Have a gp series by all means but dont say it is BETTER and FAIRER because it isnt.

 

I tend to think you have latched onto Parsloes and run with his ideals without giving much thought to what you post.

 

You ask what is difficult about finishing in the top eight against the sixteen best riders in the world. Well turn it around and ask what was difficult about finishing in the top 8 - 11 of much easier qualifying rounds, which is what the latter stages of qualification to an old world final required. It's not really a matter of opinion, more a proven fact, that the old system was massively unfair denying riders the chance to even enter, wheras now anyone that wants to can enter

 

Michael Lee, Dave Jessup, Malcolm Simmons, Gordon Kennett, Steve Bastable, Chris Morton, Tony Davey, John Davis, Les Collins, Peter Collins, Reg Wilson, Doug Wyer, Alan Grahame, Jim McMillan, John Louis, Dave Morton

 

Take that bunch of riders and remember their 1978 form. At least 8 of those were good enough to reach the world final that year but the nature of "fairer to all" qualifying meant no matter how good only 4 could progress. Ok but then look at some of the riders who graced Wembley that year at their expense

 

Jerzy Rembas, John Titman, Ilka Teromaa, Jan Verner, Marek Cieslak, Jiri Stancl, Petr Ondrasik