olddon Posted April 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 "THE MAIL", Adelaide, South Australia, Saturday, October 3, 1934: "Dirt track racing as it is today originated in 1923 at West Maitland (New South Wales) Agricultural Showground." JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted April 17, 2012 Report Share Posted April 17, 2012 "THE MAIL", Adelaide, South Australia, Saturday, October 3, 1934: "Dirt track racing as it is today originated in 1923 at West Maitland (New South Wales) Agricultural Showground." JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT It does seem the message is slowly getting through.This is the latest from the world of tv....."It's still debatable when speedway was established....." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUhy_LbjHQY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raceleader Posted April 18, 2012 Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 This debate seems to have run its course and overall I don't think anything has been resolved either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted April 18, 2012 Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 I'd say calling the debate a draw is rather like the Monty Python knight who lost all his limbs wanting to call his fight a draw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olddon Posted April 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 (edited) It does seem the message is slowly getting through.This is the latest from the world of tv....."It's still debatable when speedway was established....." http://www.youtube.c...h?v=uUhy_LbjHQY This debate seems to have run its course and overall I don't think anything has been resolved either way. I'd say calling the debate a draw is rather like the Monty Python knight who lost all his limbs wanting to call his fight a draw You were saying...Read this off a history discussion site: --- In oldtimespeedway@yahoogroups.com, "John Dixon" <john.dixon983@...> wrote: Couple of quotes from John S. Hoskins and Sprouts Elder, from books published in 1930: Sprouts Elder: "It was that very 'live wire' John S Hoskins who first hit upon the notion, in 1923, at West Maitland, Australia, where he laid the first Dirt-Track and started experiments. THe rapid rise to the popularity of Speedway Racing was directly due to this early 'spade work'." John S. Hoskins: "I nursed this sport when it first started in 1923 at West Maitland, on the Hunter River Valley, in Australia." Both these quotes state that the track was actually in West Maitland. JohnD7244 JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Edited April 18, 2012 by olddon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclone Posted April 18, 2012 Report Share Posted April 18, 2012 You were saying...Read this off a history discussion site: --- In oldtimespeedway@yahoogroups.com, "John Dixon" <john.dixon983@...> wrote: Couple of quotes from John S. Hoskins and Sprouts Elder, from books published in 1930: Sprouts Elder: "It was that very 'live wire' John S Hoskins who first hit upon the notion, in 1923, at West Maitland, Australia, where he laid the first Dirt-Track and started experiments. THe rapid rise to the popularity of Speedway Racing was directly due to this early 'spade work'." John S. Hoskins: "I nursed this sport when it first started in 1923 at West Maitland, on the Hunter River Valley, in Australia." Both these quotes state that the track was actually in West Maitland. JohnD7244 JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Direct Question Jack :- Why do you place such credence on quotes from books written years later, yet choose to ignore the contemporary local newspaper reports that Ross Garrigan has already referred to ? For example please explain why post 94 by Ross Garrigan on the now closed Maitland Speedway Anniversary thread , viz. :- “I have already mentioned that it wasn't Hoskins who "staged" the motor cycle racing which took place on the Maitland Showground on December 15, 1923. As proof, I submit this extract from a Hunter Valley newspaper dated 11/12/1923, the week leading up to the said carnival. The "club" referred to is the Hamilton Motor Cycle Club: - "On Saturday next, the club will hold motor cycle races, in conjunction with other sports, under the electric light on the Maitland Showground in aid of the Maitland Orphanage and H.R.A. and H. Association. The races are open to all members of recognised motor cycle clubs.." That item appeared in the newspaper column of the Hamilton Motor Cycle Club. Then followed the list of club officials who would conduct the racing”. should be ignored ? I await your reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olddon Posted April 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 For example please explain why post 94 by Ross Garrigan on the now closed Maitland Speedway Anniversary thread , viz. :- I think you will find that Maitland Speedway Anniversary thread is where we are now posting. There was another thread on the same subject that was closed, but all of those messages - bar one or two - have been brought over to this thread. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclone Posted April 19, 2012 Report Share Posted April 19, 2012 I think you will find that Maitland Speedway Anniversary thread is where we are now posting. There was another thread on the same subject that was closed, but all of those messages - bar one or two - have been brought over to this thread. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Fair enough, but how about answering the not unreasonable question, contained in the full post which you edited out for some reason known only to you. Did you do this to avoid answering the question, which I have now corrected, namely:- Why do you place such credence on quotes from books written years later, yet choose to ignore the contemporary local newspaper reports that Ross Garrigan has already referred to ? For example please explain why post 94 by Ross Garrigan on this thread , viz. :- “I have already mentioned that it wasn't Hoskins who "staged" the motor cycle racing which took place on the Maitland Showground on December 15, 1923. As proof, I submit this extract from a Hunter Valley newspaper dated 11/12/1923, the week leading up to the said carnival. The "club" referred to is the Hamilton Motor Cycle Club: - "On Saturday next, the club will hold motor cycle races, in conjunction with other sports, under the electric light on the Maitland Showground in aid of the Maitland Orphanage and H.R.A. and H. Association. The races are open to all members of recognised motor cycle clubs.." That item appeared in the newspaper column of the Hamilton Motor Cycle Club. Then followed the list of club officials who would conduct the racing”. should be ignored ? I await your reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHALEWAY69 Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 For what it is worth, I think a lot of people believe what is published in book form over internet postings. The writings of JSH and many early published authors seems to still be taken as gospel over the dedicated and referenced work of many present day historians/ researchers. The answer is to publish these research findings, sadly few publisher are willing to take it on as the market is too small . The other point is to look at where non speedway journalists go to research when they are asked to do something on speedway, They would go to Wikepedia, Guiness book of records or similar, they would not trawl internet forums. Therefore the course of action is to get these sources of primray information updated. This is why world final and other big meeting programmes never state true historical facts. Sadly many speedway followers seem to prefer the fairy tales to the truth.. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raceleader Posted April 22, 2012 Report Share Posted April 22, 2012 For what it is worth, I think a lot of people believe what is published in book form over internet postings. The writings of JSH and many early published authors seems to still be taken as gospel over the dedicated and referenced work of many present day historians/ researchers. The answer is to publish these research findings, sadly few publisher are willing to take it on as the market is too small . The other point is to look at where non speedway journalists go to research when they are asked to do something on speedway, They would go to Wikepedia, Guiness book of records or similar, they would not trawl internet forums. Therefore the course of action is to get these sources of primray information updated. This is why world final and other big meeting programmes never state true historical facts. Sadly many speedway followers seem to prefer the fairy tales to the truth.. . The "fors and againsts" still seem unable to even partially agree, but as the debate rages on I think this is the first sensible suggestion there has been so far. And the last sentence really gets to the basics of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olddon Posted April 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 (edited) This link mainly deals with the Australian rider Ray Taylor but there is a reference to a claim that speedway started in Australia in 1923. http://about.nsw.gov...torcycle-daisy/ The actual quote reads: "Australia is credited with inventing dirt track speedway racing with the first recorded race being was held at Maitland Showground, NSW, in 1923, although earlier races were held in the United States from 1909. An Australian Speedway team took the sport to Britain in 1928 and a series of tests held which were the fore runners of the world championships." JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Edited April 23, 2012 by olddon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 This link mainly deals with the Australian rider Ray Taylor but there is a reference to a claim that speedway started in Australia in 1923. http://about.nsw.gov...torcycle-daisy/ The actual quote reads: "Australia is credited with inventing dirt track speedway racing with the first recorded race being was held at Maitland Showground, NSW, in 1923, although earlier races were held in the United States from 1909. An Australian Speedway team took the sport to Britain in 1928 and a series of tests held which were the fore runners of the world championships." JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT And no doubt someone may quote this forum in the future as proof of Johnnie Hoskins outlandish claims, it is how the myth is perpetuated, people merely quote one unreliable source until it snowballs. I remember a year or two back, there was a scam going round that if you returned a call from a number beginning with 0704 you were connected to a service that was costing £100.00 for a few minutes, and you couldn't cut the call. Despite it having no substance, there are not even premium rates available costing that kind of money, everyone knew someone who had been affected, or knew someone who knew someone who had been affected. People repeating something they have read or heard without checking if there is any truth in it are how myths start, as time goes by they become almost accepted as truth because they have been quoted and requoted in numerous media outlets, it still doesn't make them true. No matter how many little quotes you may find re the invention of speedway it won't alter the truth that JSH is in no way responsible for inventing speedway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olddon Posted April 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 From 'The Big Thrill' by Allan Batt, published 2012. More comment from the book's prologue: "The times they were 'a changing' and although the origins of speedway racing are very much open for debate the perceived theory is that an intinerant New Zealander Johnnie Hoskins had a huge hand in it. Incidentally Hoskins was born in Waitara, just 120 miles or so from Palmerston North. "In his capacity as Secretary to the Local Hunter River Agricultural Horticultural Society near Newcastle in Australia, Hoskins organised a Sports Charity Carnival at the Maitland Showground in December 1923. 'The Electric Light Carnival was staged to benefit the local orphanages and the agricultural society. The programme of events staged that night consisted of cycling events, horse events, trotting, athletics and motorcycle racing. "It is widely recognised as the day on which motorcycle 'speedway' in its current form was born and given the success of the motor cycle races Hoskins went on to promote 'speedway' at Maitland for two years." JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted April 23, 2012 Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 (edited) Nice one Jack.You are certainly finding a lot of dodgy quotes.At least it gives the historians people to track down and show the real evidence to.Keep up the good work.But in amongst your efforts to find these unreliable quotes and search out the history of Cycle Speedway now,you seem to have again forgotten to answer a question put to you Edited April 23, 2012 by iris123 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olddon Posted April 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2012 (edited) Nice one Jack.You are certainly finding a lot of dodgy quotes.At least it gives the historians people to track down and show the real evidence to.Keep up the good work.But in amongst your efforts to find these unreliable quotes and search out the history of Cycle Speedway now,you seem to have again forgotten to answer a question put to you I know the "unanswered" question you refer to. It's not been overlooked. Cycle speedway? I assume you mean the Newcastle item on that thread. It's not really a sport I know much about but after reading a Post on an Edinburgh-Newcastle match a quick google and all that interesting stuff came up. But, of course, it's all a long way from Maitland in 1923. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Edited April 23, 2012 by olddon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olddon Posted April 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2012 (edited) From "Col Stewart, Australia's Speedway King, 1926-31" page 10: book written by Col Stewart's daughter Barbara Batistich in 2011. "The story of the origins of organised dirt track racing became famous among riders. It was reported that the 1923 West Maitland Show had been a disaster. Rain had been pouring down for days and hardly anyone turned up. Johnnie Hoskins was the Show Ground's Secretary, and desperate for ideas to bring in the crowds and stave off bankruptcy. He was driving home one evening when he came across and amazing sight. Through a haze of exhaust fumes and dust he saw a group of riders apparently trying to commit suicide by hurtling their bikes round a huge dirt track they'd created through the bush. Hoskins asked them if they'd like to race at the Show Grounds, and soon an article appeared in the local newspaper announcing the very first organised dirt track meeting. "Hoskins promoted his racing bikes under the name "speedway" and introduced racing under lights, cash prizes, racing rules and bike modifications. Country boys, used to rough riding, knew the only practical way to negotiate the the rutted dirt bends was to put your feet on the ground and the famous broadside began to develop. The advantage of a confined oval where crowds could see every "thrill and spill" (a favourite expression from those days), had been known as far back as chariot racing in Roman times, and Hoskins, like the Romans, knew a successful sport had to be part showmanship. His modern-day gladiators were an instant success and crowds began streaming in to watch the new sport." JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Edited April 29, 2012 by olddon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclone Posted April 29, 2012 Report Share Posted April 29, 2012 From "Col Stewart, Australia's Speedway King, 1926-31" page 10: book written by Col Stewart's daughter Barbara Batistich in 2011. "The story of the origins of organised dirt track racing became famous among riders. It was reported that the 1923 West Maitland Show had been a disaster. Rain had been pouring down for days and hardly anyone turned up. Johnnie Hoskins was the Show Ground's Secretary, and desperate for ideas to bring in the crowds and stave off bankruptcy. He was driving home one evening when he came across and amazing sight. Through a haze of exhaust fumes and dust he saw a group of riders apparently trying to commit suicide by hurtling their bikes round a huge dirt track they'd created through the bush. Hoskins asked them if they'd like to race at the Show Grounds, and soon an article appeared in the local newspaper announcing the very first organised dirt track meeting. "Hoskins promoted his racing bikes under the name "speedway" and introduced racing under lights, cash prizes, racing rules and bike modifications. Country boys, used to rough riding, knew the only practical way to negotiate the the rutted dirt bends was to put your feet on the ground and the famous broadside began to develop. The advantage of a confined oval where crowds could see every "thrill and spill" (a favourite expression from those days), had been known as far back as chariot racing in Roman times, and Hoskins, like the Romans, knew a successful had to be part showmanship. His modern-day gladiators were an instant success and crowds began streaming in to watch the new sport." JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Ah more unsubstantiated quotes from 2011, whilst disregarding the the previously quoted newspaper reports of 1923, which contradict the above and like an ostrich with it's head in the sand, you still choose to ignore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olddon Posted April 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted April 29, 2012 Ah more unsubstantiated quotes from 2011, whilst disregarding the the previously quoted newspaper reports of 1923, which contradict the above and like an ostrich with it's head in the sand, you still choose to ignore. The book "Col Stewart - Australia's Speedway King 1926-31" written by his daughter Barbara Batistich in 2011was based on many items from Col's collection and included press cuttings for the research on the book. Seemingly they may have formed the basis for the comment about the start of speedway and I think the write-up that I quoted does in fact mention the press of that time? Also, visit this site to crosscheck the mention of press cuttings http://www.speedwayplus.com/ColStewart.shtml JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyclone Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 (edited) The book "Col Stewart - Australia's Speedway King 1926-31" written by his daughter Barbara Batistich in 2011was based on many items from Col's collection and included press cuttings for the research on the book. Seemingly they may have formed the basis for the comment about the start of speedway and I think the write-up that I quoted does in fact mention the press of that time? Also, visit this site to crosscheck the mention of press cuttings http://www.speedwayp...olStewart.shtml JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT That link is just a review for a book and has no definitive references to contemporary published reports of 1923. Nothing there to substantiate your belief re JSH. Note you still have not responded to Ross Garrigan's factual references to the local newspaper article of December 1923, that indicates that the Hamilton Motor Cycle Club, not JSH, organised the event on 15/12/1923. Can you provide an independent reference of the actual event (e.g. another local newspaper report dated 1923, or details from the programme for the actual event) which contradicts Mr Garrigan's newspaper extract of 11/12/1923 ? Edited April 30, 2012 by cyclone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatDave Posted April 30, 2012 Report Share Posted April 30, 2012 The book "Col Stewart - Australia's Speedway King 1926-31" written by his daughter Barbara Batistich in 2011was based on many items from Col's collection and included press cuttings for the research on the book. Seemingly they may have formed the basis for the comment about the start of speedway and I think the write-up that I quoted does in fact mention the press of that time? Also, visit this site to crosscheck the mention of press cuttings http://www.speedwayp...olStewart.shtml JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Keep up the good work, Jack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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