Maitland Speedway Anniversary

[Humphrey Appleby]

How do you regard this comment from the FIM?

 

I very much doubt the FIM have employed a team of forensic historians to write a short summary piece for their website, which is very likely culled from existing, but not entirely accurate secondary sources. It's actually a fairly reasonable summary for the uninitiated, but an FIM press officer (with all due respect to Marc Petrier) responsible for the news output of all the FIM disciplines is unlikely to have trawled through old newspapers Down Under to ensure the facts are 100% accurate with respect to track racing.

[norbold]

Sadly our amateur historian wears blinkers when it comes to reading anything that proves he's wrong, kennylane.

An excellent thought provoking and well thought-out response to my reasons for saying why I do not believe Johnnie Hoskins invented speedway. I shall look into all the reasons you raise for disagreeing with my post and get back to you when I have had time to study your detailed post further.

[olddon]

How do you regard this comment from

 

How do you regard this comment from the FIM? http://www.fim-live....f-track-racing/

"The first vehicles created at the end of the 19th century were immediately put to run on roads or – if they existed – tracks. The first motorcycles were not very fast, but within a few years started to reach very high speeds. The idea of using an oval track or an athletic track around a football ground or even a horse track, came very early. Mentions made in California in 1902, in South Africa in 1907 or around a football ground in Ipswich (GBR) in 1904 are just a few of them.

 

"But the first event, with a real structure, is generally considered to be the one held in Australia in 1923. Australians took everything off the motorcycle which was not essential, in order to reduce weight, and put the bikes for racing on oval grounds. The first real record of a dirt track meeting was on Saturday 15 December 1923 in West Maitland. The event was organised by John Hoskins, who is generally considered as the “father” of speedway competition.

 

"Success came very fast, and within a couple of years other tracks were built in various cities all over Australia. News was sent from Australia to Great Britain and the idea came up to hold such an event there. It was first scheduled in November 1927 but permission was refused by the authorities. The event was finally staged on Sunday 19 February 1928 in High Beech."

Speedway Star, page 25, March 17, 2012 -

 

JOHNNIE HOSKINS, MBE

 

The father of speedway racing - or at least that's what history decrees, although there is some question as to whether he really did run the first-ever dirt-track meeting in the world.

 

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

I very much doubt the FIM have employed a team of forensic historians to write a short summary piece for their website, which is very likely culled from existing, but not entirely accurate secondary sources. It's actually a fairly reasonable summary for the uninitiated, but an FIM press officer (with all due respect to Marc Petrier) responsible for the news output of all the FIM disciplines is unlikely to have trawled through old newspapers Down Under to ensure the facts are 100% accurate with respect to track racing.

 

This looks like a 2-1 lead for Johnnie Hoskins supporters at the moment!

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[kennylane]

Speedway Star, page 25, March 17, 2012 -

 

JOHNNIE HOSKINS, MBE

 

The father of speedway racing - or at least that's what history decrees, although there is some question as to whether he really did run the first-ever dirt-track meeting in the world.

 

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

 

Here’s the actual transcript of the item about Johnnie Hoskins in ‘Speedway Star’ Narch 17 2012 edition.

JOHNNIE HOSKINS, MBE

The father of speedway racing - or at least that's what history decrees, although there is some question as to whether he really did run the first-ever dirt track meeting in the world.

Certainly he was secretary of the Local Hunter River Agricultural and Horticultural Society when he decided to put on some motorcycle races as part of the annual show.

It was hardly a headline act and for the 1923 event on December 15, the poster bills had motor-cycling racing in the smallest print of all, overshadowed by the star act, Tom Handley's Famous Buck-jumping Show.

But the bikes caught the imagination of the locals and the shrewd and extrovert Hoskins, born in New Zealand in 1892, quickly latched on to the idea that it could be his key to the fortune jar.

He started running meetings every week, and before long was looking to widen his horizons beyond the small New South Wales community of West Maitland.

He, his wife Audrey and their son Ian, sold their few belongings, left their rented house and journeyed down to Newcastle where he audaciously ran his own World Championship.

He lost his shirt in Sydney, travelled over to Perth, where his share of the first gate at Claremont was the princely sum of £750 (£35,000 in today's world).

Johnnie was never short of coming forward and was a one man publicity machine and it was swiftly accepted that he had invented speedway racing.

He was much in demand and set sail from Australia bound for the UK knowing he was wanted to take over the management of ten tracks.

[iris123]

None of this moves the debate forward though.Just yet again,Hoskins said he invented speedway and people accepted it.But we already have seen that not everyone accepted it back in the 30s and not everyone accepts it today.So..........

[norbold]

Sadly our amateur historian wears blinkers when it comes to reading anything that proves he's wrong, kennylane.

Incidentally, while I'm considering a response to your earlier detailed forensic dissection of my post I wonder if you could define "amateur historian". As you know I worked at The British Museum for 37 years and have had 23 history books published. I'd be interested in your definition of "amateur" in this context and whether you consider yourself to be a professional historian.

This looks like a 2-1 lead for Johnnie Hoskins supporters at the moment!

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

Your score somehow seems to not count my post. So not biased at all then.....

Here’s the actual transcript of the item about Johnnie Hoskins in ‘Speedway Star’ Narch 17 2012 edition.

JOHNNIE HOSKINS, MBE

The father of speedway racing - or at least that's what history decrees, although there is some question as to whether he really did run the first-ever dirt track meeting in the world.

Peter Oakes doesn't seem to be as sure as some of you on here that Maitland was the first meeting. In fact the meeting was on grass and as we know there had been other dirt track meetings before.

 

He, his wife Audrey and their son Ian, sold their few belongings, left their rented house and journeyed down to Newcastle where he audaciously ran his own World Championship.

He lost his shirt in Sydney

Hoskins did not travel to Newcastle from Maitland. He went to Sydney first and then on to Newcastle, where he took up the position as secretary for an already well-established speedway. The reference to a World Championship is interesting as I have never come across that before. Perhaps you can expand on that kennylane. Do you have the contemporary references to it as they would be very interesting to see?

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Who was it though, I wonder, who first termed dirt-track motorcycle racing as 'Speedway'..? We all know there was dirt track motorcycle racing before Maitland '23 (not least in the USA) but as far as I know it certainly wasn't called Speedway until sometime later into the '20s... It wasn't when it started here in '28 (or even '27 - ANOTHER debate) but soon a company called International Speedways was calling the sport by the name we know and love it by to this day... Maybe our Johnnie has a claim to the styling of the sport rather than its pure origin..?

[iris123]

Who was it though, I wonder, who first termed dirt-track motorcycle racing as 'Speedway'..? We all know there was dirt track motorcycle racing before Maitland '23 (not least in the USA) but as far as I know it certainly wasn't called Speedway until sometime later into the '20s... It wasn't when it started here in '28 (or even '27 - ANOTHER debate) but soon a company called International Speedways was calling the sport by the name we know and love it by to this day... Maybe our Johnnie has a claim to the styling of the sport rather than its pure origin..?

I did provide a link to a newpaper article from the States from around 1912 or so(might have been earlier or a bit later,not got time to search)which described track racing as 'speedway racing'.This coming from their use of the term 'speedway' for their tracks.Think it might have been from Indianapolis.But there were cars and also bikes at the meeting.I would think it just came to be used as a term in the States and the terms were copied in Australia at first then Britain when the sport arrived,because in 1928 it was Crystal Palace Speedway.I tend to go with the idea that the sport was developed in the States and then furthered in Australia.Some of the bike companies were even producing racing bikes without brakes in the States and we know they were broadsiding there well before 1923.And they weren't at Maitland i think at first and did they have brakes at Maitland?(i can't remember if it is known...)

[olddon]

Here’s the actual transcript of the item about Johnnie Hoskins in ‘Speedway Star’ Narch 17 2012 edition.

JOHNNIE HOSKINS, MBE

The father of speedway racing - or at least that's what history decrees, although there is some question as to whether he really did run the first-ever dirt track meeting in the world.

Johnnie was never short of coming forward and was a one man publicity machine and it was swiftly accepted that he had invented speedway racing.

 

Edited in the quote are two important comments from the 'Speedway Star' article.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[iris123]

Edited in the quote are two important comments from the 'Speedway Star' article.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

Very important.And also important to understand just what is being said.As we know it certainly wasn't universally 'accepted'.So who was it accepted by?Where they in a position to know anything about the origins?And did those people who were involved in any of the meetings before Hoskins came on the scene accept the fact?know that Hoskins was claiming to have invented it or given a chance to have their say on the subject?Did anyone for instance ever ask any of the early Americans?

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

I did provide a link to a newpaper article from the States from around 1912 or so(might have been earlier or a bit later,not got time to search)which described track racing as 'speedway racing'.This coming from their use of the term 'speedway' for their tracks.Think it might have been from Indianapolis.But there were cars and also bikes at the meeting.I would think it just came to be used as a term in the States and the terms were copied in Australia at first then Britain when the sport arrived,because in 1928 it was Crystal Palace Speedway.I tend to go with the idea that the sport was developed in the States and then furthered in Australia.Some of the bike companies were even producing racing bikes without brakes in the States and we know they were broadsiding there well before 1923.And they weren't at Maitland i think at first and did they have brakes at Maitland?(i can't remember if it is known...)

 

Well yes - a 'Speedway' is indeed the name for a motor racetrack in the States. And here too sometimes (e.g Rockingham Speedway near Corby). Somewhere and somehow though somebody thought that a particular activity taking part on a Speedway, namely the form of dirt track motorcycling without brakes, should be called in itself, 'Speedway'.

Personally I think it was a bit daft as it's led to a certain amount of confusion (certainly in some places, like the USA) ever since...

Perhaps we should've gone with the branding used initially at good old Plough Lane: dirt track racing as Dracing!!

[speedyguy]

Re: MAITLAND SPEEDWAY ANNIVERSARY

 

 

 

 

-This is an observation on how we can sometimes get offside on recording history and this particulary relates to Maitland, .

 

Anyone involved in biographies and family histories would be aware that the

memories of family members are often selective or tinted by the passage of time.

If we are documenting these memoirs, for future generations, the trick is to

merge, or factor in, those recollections with the historical facts that we can

access to through the wonders of information technology We should try and nuture contacts with the few remaining people who have contacts with the pre war years...

 

The problem, as I see it is in the way we compose internet postings, often a

missing or ill chosen word,sparks off reactions from both sides. Of this I am as

guilty as the next person.

 

Face to face interviews are still the most productive because we establish a

relationship at the outset. If we look at the style of our respected writers,

Basil Storey,John Chaplin, Eric Linden, John Hyam, Cyril May etc, they all

based their stories on personal contact and got to know their subjects. Often

they travelled many miles to produce that copy. I think that John C travelled

to Australia to see Vic Duggan and Graham Warren. Another writer who has made

the effort to get out and meet pioneers is Steve Magro, well respected by the

older riders. This takes time and money.

 

I have tried to follow that approach over the last five years, words of wisdom

came from Reg Fearman, "Get out and see them before it is too late!" This

personal approach has reaped untold benefits. Over recent years I have shared

memories with visits to speedway families. I would like to think that I have

gained the confidence of those I have visited. Certainly doors have opened for

me that were firmly closed in the past.

 

Sadly there are very few identities still around with connections to the pre war

days,we should value and respect the remaining contacts we have. Ian Hoskins is

one who comes to mind, I wonder how many present day writers have attempted to

gain a face to face with Ian. From what we read he is wary of new historians,

although I have been around speedway for a long time, I would be placed in that

category when it comes to speedway history. A talk with Ian would be on my

bucket list, maybe we would agree to differ, but at least it would be eye to

eye.

 

In my home city of Brisbane we have a small network of historians who meet from

time to time, sharing info and material this has proved beneficial. Venues are

always an issue but I have a concept in mind to expand on in the near future.

 

thanks for reading this

 

 

Tony

 

This Post is a valid reflection on the problems that face historians. You cannot always believe what you read in the Press. A case in point:

When the last tram in London ran between New Cross Gate and Woolwich in the early 1950s, there was a major mistake in the report in the following edition of the 'South London Press.' In a further edition some weeks later, the mistake was corrected on the letters page.

However, over the years when articles have been written about London's last tram, the original error is quoted. Then comes the usual corrections on the letters page - which are ignored when next the original article is quoted.

That can happen in regard to what is now being accepted as gospel in regard to newspaper coverage of the "start of speedway" in 1923. Are we 100 per cent sure they are accurate accounts or are researchers assuming they are?

It's what's known in the newspaper trade as the perpetuating error. West Maitland 1923 - did Johnnie Hoskins start speedway. Or did he NOT start speedway racing? How can we be 100 per cent sure either way?

Edited March 16, 2012 by speedyguy

[olddon]

Elsewhere on another discussion group I have read a rather odd Post. It says that Johnnie Hoskins wrote some programmes notes in which he denied that he started speedway in the UK in 1928.

I wonder why this matter was brought into the public domain because I don't think anyone has ever claimed that Johnnie started British speedway in 1928?

As they say "yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice!"

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[kennylane]

Elsewhere on another discussion group I have read a rather odd Post. It says that Johnnie Hoskins wrote some programmes notes in which he denied that he started speedway in the UK in 1928.

I wonder why this matter was brought into the public domain because I don't think anyone has ever claimed that Johnnie started British speedway in 1928?

As they say "yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice!"

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

That comment you refer to is what our Australian friend BFD so rightly calls a Red Herring by that lot.

[BigFatDave]

That comment you refer to is what our Australian friend BFD so rightly calls a Red Herring by that lot.

One of several reasons why I've given up even attempting to debate our pet amateur historian, kennylane, along with his constant sarcasm, self-aggrandisement and snide remarks: in the words of Thomas Paine "To argue with a person who has renounced the use of Reason is like administering Medicine to the Dead."

[Ross Garrigan]

Hoskins did not travel to Newcastle from Maitland. He went to Sydney first and then on to Newcastle, where he took up the position as secretary for an already well-established speedway. The reference to a World Championship is interesting as I have never come across that before. Perhaps you can expand on that kennylane. Do you have the contemporary references to it as they would be very interesting to see?

 

Johnnie Hoskins DID NOT stage a "world championship" at Newcastle during the period of his employment there. That is yet another of the "Hoskins' Myths" which have been around for decades.

 

Peter Oakes also drags up yet another Hoskins' Myth when he writes that the first time motor cycles raced on a programme on the Maitland Show Ground was at the time of the annual Show. The Maitland Show was in March, not December.

 

Hoskins certainly DID NOT run the first dirt track meeting in the world.

 

Norman has already corrected the error concerning Hoskins supposedly leaving Maitland to go to work at the Newcastle speedway.

 

Has anyone ever seen in print Johnnie Hoskins actually say he "invented speedway"?

Edited March 19, 2012 by Ross Garrigan

[kennylane]

Here’s the actual transcript of the item about Johnnie Hoskins in ‘Speedway Star’ Narch 17 2012 edition. JOHNNIE HOSKINS, MBE The father of speedway racing - or at least that's what history decrees, although there is some question as to whether he really did run the first-ever dirt track meeting in the world. Certainly he was secretary of the Local Hunter River Agricultural and Horticultural Society when he decided to put on some motorcycle races as part of the annual show. It was hardly a headline act and for the 1923 event on December 15, the poster bills had motor-cycling racing in the smallest print of all, overshadowed by the star act, Tom Handley's Famous Buck-jumping Show. But the bikes caught the imagination of the locals and the shrewd and extrovert Hoskins, born in New Zealand in 1892, quickly latched on to the idea that it could be his key to the fortune jar. He started running meetings every week, and before long was looking to widen his horizons beyond the small New South Wales community of West Maitland. He, his wife Audrey and their son Ian, sold their few belongings, left their rented house and journeyed down to Newcastle where he audaciously ran his own World Championship. He lost his shirt in Sydney, travelled over to Perth, where his share of the first gate at Claremont was the princely sum of £750 (£35,000 in today's world). Johnnie was never short of coming forward and was a one man publicity machine and it was swiftly accepted that he had invented speedway racing. He was much in demand and set sail from Australia bound for the UK knowing he was wanted to take over the management of ten tracks.

Incidentally, while I'm considering a response to your earlier detailed forensic dissection of my post I wonder if you could define "amateur historian". As you know I worked at The British Museum for 37 years and have had 23 history books published. I'd be interested in your definition of "amateur" in this context and whether you consider yourself to be a professional historian. Your score somehow seems to not count my post. So not biased at all then..... Peter Oakes doesn't seem to be as sure as some of you on here that Maitland was the first meeting. In fact the meeting was on grass and as we know there had been other dirt track meetings before. Hoskins did not travel to Newcastle from Maitland. He went to Sydney first and then on to Newcastle, where he took up the position as secretary for an already well-established speedway. The reference to a World Championship is interesting as I have never come across that before. Perhaps you can expand on that kennylane. Do you have the contemporary references to it as they would be very interesting to see?

 

Hold on! I didn't claim that Johnnie Hoskins staged a world championship in the 1920s. That was mentioned by the respected Peter Oakes in his article in last week's 'Speedway Star.' Don't shoot the messenger!

Edited March 19, 2012 by kennylane

[raceleader]

Johnnie Hoskins DID NOT stage a "world championship" at Newcastle during the period of his employment there. That is yet another of the "Hoskins' Myths" which have been around for decades.

 

Peter Oakes also drags up yet another Hoskins' Myth when he writes that the first time motor cycles raced on a programme on the Maitland Show Ground was at the time of the annual Show. The Maitland Show was in March, not December.

 

Hoskins certainly DID NOT run the first dirt track meeting in the world.

 

Norman has already corrected the error concerning Hoskins supposedly leaving Maitland to go to work at the Newcastle speedway.

 

Has anyone ever seen in print Johnnie Hoskins actually say he "invented speedway"?

 

Johnnie Hoskins maybe he didn't need to make a claim that he invented speedway but was recognised most probably by others for what he did to achieve this recognition. That's how I see it after reading all the pros and cons throughout so many messages on this interesting subject.

[BigFatDave]

Hold on! I didn't claim that Johnnie Hoskins staged a world championship in the 1920s. That was mentioned by the respected Peter Oakes in his article in last week's 'Speedway Star.' Don't shoot the messenger!

It's just norbold rearranging the facts to suit his argument again, kennylane.

[olddon]

Johnnie Hoskins maybe he didn't need to make a claim that he invented speedway but was recognised most probably by others for what he did to achieve this recognition. That's how I see it after reading all the pros and cons throughout so many messages on this interesting subject.

 

That is a new view on how Johnnie Hoskins became recognised as the founding father of speedway as we know it after his 1923 venture at Maitland. The trend, as I see your comment, is that what he did in December that year was so inspirational that it was the benchmark for the sport's future? Or do I misunderstand what you are getting at?

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT