Maitland Speedway Anniversary

[BigFatDave]

You're a bit off course. Edinburgh in the early 1960s when Peter Craven tragically died and Maitland in 1923 are a long way apart. I don't quite see what this has to do with the debate on the start of speedway in Australia in December 1923. A rather unusual parallel but I am sure BFD will give his response.

It's just another red herring from the "Denigrate Johnnie Hoskins' Achievements (at any cost to their own personal credibility) Brigade", Kennylane, and should be treated as such.

I see it as the usual forum posting of someone who desperately wishes to be seen as 'In The Know". Who gives a stuff anyhow? As has been proven on this thread time after time, these people will argue Black's White in order to prove their own twisted agendas; they attempt to rewrite History to suit themselves and are not to be relied upon as a source of fact.

[cyclone]

You're a bit off course. Edinburgh in the early 1960s when Peter Craven tragically died and Maitland in 1923 are a long way apart. I don't quite see what this has to do with the debate on the start of speedway in Australia in December 1923. A rather unusual parallel but I am sure BFD will give his response.

 

I mentioned being wary of believing that a Promoter will always be infallible in recalling events and cited an example.

 

Given I was responding to BFD implying that someone actively involved in Speedway (Bill Buckley) was likely know more about events in 1923 than the likes of Ross Garrigan, I assumed you would be able to follow the gist of my reply.

 

Obviously I was mistaken in your case.

[BigFatDave]

Cyclone, I wasn't implying anything; I was stating a fact. Now I see you're trying to denigrate Bill Buckley.

 

Obviously personal abuse is the preferred method of the Red (Herring) Brigade.

[cyclone]

It's just another red herring from the "Denigrate Johnnie Hoskins' Achievements (at any cost to their own personal credibility) Brigade", Kennylane, and should be treated as such.

I see it as the usual forum posting of someone who desperately wishes to be seen as 'In The Know". Who gives a stuff anyhow? As has been proven on this thread time after time, these people will argue Black's White in order to prove their own twisted agendas; they attempt to rewrite History to suit themselves and are not to be relied upon as a source of fact.

 

The only person denigrating others on here is your good-self..

 

 

I see you have ducked out of responding to the question I asked in my original post, namely :-

 

"As you appear to be critical of the lengthy research carried out by the likes of Ross Garrigan and Norman Jacobs, could you name the "professional" historians that you place more credence on ?"

 

To infer that I have denigrated JSH achievements, please provide the proof on here.

 

No one is compelled to accept the status quo and if someone wishes to question it's validity based on their research findings that's fair enough.

 

However your sarcasm towards others with differing views and your unwillingness to provide reasoned counter arguments brings nothing to the topic.

 

BTW I do not know whether or not JSH did invent motor cycle speedway and until incontrovertible proof is published one way or the other, I will keep an open mind on the subject.

Edited April 5, 2012 by cyclone

[kennylane]

The only person denigrating others on here is your good-self..

 

 

I see you have ducked out of responding to the question I asked in my original post, namely :-

 

"As you appear to be critical of the lengthy research carried out by the likes of Ross Garrigan and Norman Jacobs, could you name the "professional" historians that you place more credence on ?"

 

To infer that I have denigrated JSH achievements, please provide the proof on here.

 

No one is compelled to accept the status quo and if someone wishes to question it's validity based on their research findings that's fair enough.

 

However your sarcasm towards others with differing views and your unwillingness to provide reasoned counter arguments brings nothing to the topic.

 

BTW I do not know whether or not JSH did invent motor cycle speedway and until incontrovertible proof is published one way or the other, I will keep an open mind on the subject.

 

 

 

The only person denigrating others on here is your good-self..

 

 

I see you have ducked out of responding to the question I asked in my original post, namely :-

 

"As you appear to be critical of the lengthy research carried out by the likes of Ross Garrigan and Norman Jacobs, could you name the "professional" historians that you place more credence on ?"

 

To infer that I have denigrated JSH achievements, please provide the proof on here.

 

No one is compelled to accept the status quo and if someone wishes to question it's validity based on their research findings that's fair enough.

 

However your sarcasm towards others with differing views and your unwillingness to provide reasoned counter arguments brings nothing to the topic.

 

BTW I do not know whether or not JSH did invent motor cycle speedway and until incontrovertible proof is published one way or the other, I will keep an open mind on the subject.

 

 

Yowieee!! A double-whammy. If Johnnie Hoskins is looking down he must be enjoying all this? Support for the Maitland speedway started theory: the recently provided South African site, the NZ Grand Prix programme, and a while back Peter Oakes in 'Speedway Star" are a good enough basis surely?

[cyclone]

Yowieee!! A double-whammy. If Johnnie Hoskins is looking down he must be enjoying all this? Support for the Maitland speedway started theory: the recently provided South African site, the NZ Grand Prix programme, and a while back Peter Oakes in 'Speedway Star" are a good enough basis surely?

 

 

Re Peter Oakes piece in S Star of 17/3/2012, I would not disagree with his opening paragraph:-

 

" The father of speedway racing - or at least that's what history decrees, although there is some question as to whethe he really did run the first-ever dirt track meeting in the world "

 

Personally I place more credence on the contemporary evidence that Ross Garrigan has unearthed and referred to regarding motorcycling events in Australia in 1923 and earlier.

 

Of course it is up to the individual to judge how much detail they require before making up their mind one way or another.

 

Out of interest has anyone come across evidence that Johnny Hoskins publicly claimed to invent motorcycle Speedway ?

 

I am aware that others (including his son Ian) have made this assertion, but IIRC, JSH mentions in one of his books organising such events at West Maitland, but does not go as far as to claim to be inventor of the sport.

 

He may well be the Inventor, but if others wish to research other earlier avenues, why should their findings not be considered with an open mind ?

 

For instance the invention of the telephone is commonly recognised as by one of my countrymen, Alexander Graham Bell, but some would contest that American, Elisha Gray, made the first phone.

Edited April 5, 2012 by cyclone

[BigFatDave]

I take it you'd like to see the holes in their hands, Cyclone?

 

Quite why you continue to belittle anyone with the temerity to disagree with you escapes me: it must provide some personal satisfaction to you to be the only person marching in step.

[cyclone]

I take it you'd like to see the holes in their hands, Cyclone?

 

Quite why you continue to belittle anyone with the temerity to disagree with you escapes me: it must provide some personal satisfaction to you to be the only person marching in step.

 

Usual standard reply I see, plenty sarcasm, but lack of meaningful response when politely asked to provide facts.

 

I bow to The Red Herring Master

[BigFatDave]

Usual standard reply I see, plenty sarcasm, but lack of meaningful response when politely asked to provide facts.

 

I bow to The Red Herring Master

You keep introducing 'em, I'll keep bagging 'em, Cyclone - why should anyone even bother to choose to answer your constant carpings? Why don't you stop and smell the methanol for a change - Johnnie Hoskins is accepted by the vast majority of Speedway Fans as the Godfather of Modern Speedway - FACT.

 

The paucity of your argument becomes even more evident every time you post - you can't back up your argument so you try to turn your failings on to everyone else.

Edited April 6, 2012 by BigFatDave

[olddon]

You keep introducing 'em, I'll keep bagging 'em, Cyclone - why should anyone even bother to choose to answer your constant carpings? Why don't you stop and smell the methanol for a change - Johnnie Hoskins is accepted by the vast majority of Speedway Fans as the Godfather of Modern Speedway - FACT.

 

The paucity of your argument becomes even more evident every time you post - you can't back up your argument so you try to turn your failings on to everyone else.

 

I agree with this. No matter how much Ross Garrigan, Norman Jacobs, Cyclone and others in the clan attempt on the BSF to decry the evidence provided in support of Johnnie Hoskins and the start of speedway at Maitland in December 1923, support for that theory is always provided in a convincing way.

The South African website without doubt is a fine new source of reference in regard to Maitland in December 1923, and also on how Johnnie Hoskins was at the forefront when REAL speedway - not the High Beech shambles in the February - was brought to England in 1928.

It will take more time, perseverance and research on the part of the pro-Hoskins group to finally prove their point. But recent information and supportive writings show that the Johnnie Hoskins at Maitland in December 1923 cause is now winning the recognition that it deserves.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[norbold]

I've refrained from looking at this thread for some time - in fact I've refrained from looking at the BSF for some time as it has descended into the pits (no pun intended).

 

Olddon says "No matter how much Ross Garrigan, Norman Jacobs, Cyclone and others in the clan attempt on the BSF to decry the evidence provided in support of Johnnie Hoskins and the start of speedway at Maitland in December 1923, support for that theory is always provided in a convincing way." What convincing way is that? The proponents of the "Hoskins Did It" theory have still not yet quoted one contemporary source to back up their views. Ross, Cyclone, Kevin and I have asked repeatedly for them to do this and all we get is some link to a modern web site or quote from a written modern source. I suggest to BFD, olddon and kennylane that they actually go to Australia and look through the newspapers in the archives, or failing that go to Colindale and look through contemporary sources in the Newspaper Library. That's what historical research is all about, going back to the source. Ross has provided incontrovertible evidence on here that the meeting at Maitland in December 1923 was not the first of its kind, nor was it even thought to be at the time. That's the reality of this whole discussion.

 

OK, that was my last contribution to not only this debate but this forum as I'm finished with the BSF for good now because I know the only response from the Big Fat Tractor Driver will be to hurl personal abuse at me without trying to show any evidence of his views while olddon and kennylane will give more links to modern web sites. I have operated all my life under strict research conditions where arguments are supported by real facts and sources. There are disagreements over interpretation of course but never once have I found it descend to the level of personal abuse so beloved of Dave Puxley nor the idea that a link to a web site - or even worse, a plaque, can overturn years of real research.

 

I always thought there were supposed to be rules on this Forum about attacking the post and not the poster. Obviously I was wrong if BFD is still here.

 

I find it very sad to have to say I've finished with the BSF as I was one of the first members on the original site over 10 years ago. But it's just become a joke now. The idea of real historical research is now frowned on and those who practice it subject to personal abuse.

 

It was nice knowing you, Phil, but it's goodbye now.

[kennylane]

I've refrained from looking at this thread for some time - in fact I've refrained from looking at the BSF for some time as it has descended into the pits (no pun intended).

 

Olddon says "No matter how much Ross Garrigan, Norman Jacobs, Cyclone and others in the clan attempt on the BSF to decry the evidence provided in support of Johnnie Hoskins and the start of speedway at Maitland in December 1923, support for that theory is always provided in a convincing way." What convincing way is that? The proponents of the "Hoskins Did It" theory have still not yet quoted one contemporary source to back up their views. Ross, Cyclone, Kevin and I have asked repeatedly for them to do this and all we get is some link to a modern web site or quote from a written modern source. I suggest to BFD, olddon and kennylane that they actually go to Australia and look through the newspapers in the archives, or failing that go to Colindale and look through contemporary sources in the Newspaper Library. That's what historical research is all about, going back to the source. Ross has provided incontrovertible evidence on here that the meeting at Maitland in December 1923 was not the first of its kind, nor was it even thought to be at the time. That's the reality of this whole discussion.

 

OK, that was my last contribution to not only this debate but this forum as I'm finished with the BSF for good now because I know the only response from the Big Fat Tractor Driver will be to hurl personal abuse at me without trying to show any evidence of his views while olddon and kennylane will give more links to modern web sites. I have operated all my life under strict research conditions where arguments are supported by real facts and sources. There are disagreements over interpretation of course but never once have I found it descend to the level of personal abuse so beloved of Dave Puxley nor the idea that a link to a web site - or even worse, a plaque, can overturn years of real research.

 

I always thought there were supposed to be rules on this Forum about attacking the post and not the poster. Obviously I was wrong if BFD is still here.

 

I find it very sad to have to say I've finished with the BSF as I was one of the first members on the original site over 10 years ago. But it's just become a joke now. The idea of real historical research is now frowned on and those who practice it subject to personal abuse.

 

It was nice knowing you, Phil, but it's goodbye now.

 

It's a shame you have taken that attitude but it's a free world. It means you will now probably never see this item on Brian Darby's excellent Australian speedway site. For those interested - oh, dear another website link - all will be revealed at:

http://speedwayarchives.homestead.com/

SCROLL DOWN TO SEE THIS PHOTO AND CAPTION:

Bill Crampton - the man who won the first ever Speedway race at West Maitland Showgrounds in December 1923.

Edited April 6, 2012 by kennylane

[Ross Garrigan]

For those who have not yet - are there any ? - read the comments about Johnnie Hoskins on the South African site which I linked. here's an edited clip of it:

"Johnny S. Hoskins

The history of speedway began in Australia, when the godfather of the sport, Johnny S. Hoskins, organised the first motorcycle races on a dirt oval track at West Maitland, near Sydney, in December 1923. This event has generally been accepted as the very first speedway meeting, even though it’s a proven fact, that the Americans had pioneered motorcycle races on oval tracks as early as in 1902."

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

Jack, you are citing what was written by Christian Weber about 10 years ago as proof of your belief that Johnnie Hoskins invented speedway at Maitland on December 15, 1923. Have you contacted Christian and asked him if that is still his belief? If not, have you considered he may now think differently?

 

Jack, I wouldn't use what you quote from the South African site as "proof" because I know Christian no longer holds that view he expressed about a decade ago.

 

I have given my source of reference for all I have said on here about Hoskins/Maitland. If you are going to use what appears on a website or in a book or magazine as proof of your argument Jack, you should first do some checking. Check how old the information is and check with the person who wrote it just what his source of reference was. Remember the old Guinness Book of Records we discussed.

 

As for what appears in the New Zealand GP programme, the people commenting must have a source of reference. I would be interested to know what those sources are.

[Ross Garrigan]

It's a shame you have taken that attitude but it's a free world. It means you will now probably never see this item on Brian Darby's excellent Australian speedway site. For those interested - oh, dear another website link - all will be revealed at:

http://speedwayarchives.homestead.com/

SCROLL DOWN TO SEE THIS PHOTO AND CAPTION:

Bill Crampton - the man who won the first ever Speedway race at West Maitland Showgrounds in December 1923.

 

When Bill Crampton wheeled his motor cycle out onto the Maitland track for his first race on December 15, 1923, he was only doing what he had done many times before - lining up to participate in a race for motor cycles on a showground/sports ground track as part of a sports carnival. What's more, he was about to race on grass. I know he had participated in this sort of event many times elsewhere because I have the carnival reports and results.

 

I ask again, what was it that Bill Crampton and a number of other competitors did at Maitland on December 15, 1923, that they hadn't done previously elsewhere?

 

As for the citing of Brian Darby's website as proof that Hoskins started/invented speedway at Maitland on December 15, 1923, I have emailed Brian and asked him his source of reference for implying speedway started on that occasion. I also asked him if he subscribes to the belief Hoskins started/invented speedway. I am hopeful of a response from him.

 

I have already mentioned that it wasn't Hoskins who "staged" the motor cycle racing which took place on the Maitland Showground on December 15, 1923. As proof, I submit this extract from a Hunter Valley newspaper dated 11/12/1923, the week leading up to the said carnival. The "club" referred to is the Hamilton Motor Cycle Club: -

 

"On Saturday next, the club will hold motor cycle races, in conjunction with other sports, under the electric light on the Maitland Showground in aid of the Maitland Orphanage and H.R.A. and H. Association. The races are open to all members of recognised motor cycle clubs.."

 

That item appeared in the newspaper column of the Hamilton Motor Cycle Club. Then followed the list of club officials who would conduct the racing.

Edited April 7, 2012 by Ross Garrigan

[Jim Blanchard]

The South African website without doubt is a fine new source of reference in regard to Maitland in December 1923, and also on how Johnnie Hoskins was at the forefront when REAL speedway - not the High Beech shambles in the February - was brought to England in 1928.

It will take more time, perseverance and research on the part of the pro-Hoskins group to finally prove their point. But recent information and supportive writings show that the Johnnie Hoskins at Maitland in December 1923 cause is now winning the recognition that it deserves.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

This was posted on the Speedway History Forum yesterday afternoon:

 

"""Hello friends,

 

this is Christian Weber aka Kirk.

 

Indeed, I feel a little bit embarressed, but please let me explain.

 

I wrote this history of South African Speedway nearly ten years ago. I didn't know then what I know now about the origins of Speedway. Hands up any of You who knew then that the Hoskins / Maitland story about the invention of speedway was just a myth.

 

I didn't know it, I admit that. All the reference works I read up to that time repeated the Hoskins' creation of speedway myth. Ten years on, I know that no-one has "invented" speedway, that the sport has evolved, and that it does not have a "Godfather".

 

At the time (2003) I believed in what I read about the birth of speedway, and really had no cause to doubt it.

 

Now, not least thanks to what I read on forums like this one, and thanks to the precious work of people like Ross Garrigan, whom I admire very much, I know better.

 

Let me tell You that by now I had already nearly forgotten what I wrote about the origins of the sport in that "75 years of speedway in SA". It was only a prelude to the main part, the South African Speedway history.

By the way, the work was never completed, You will notice that it stops with 1979. After that the SSRC newsletter was no longer published, and I did not continue with writing on that story. """

[olddon]

This was posted on the Speedway History Forum yesterday afternoon:

 

"""Hello friends,

 

this is Christian Weber aka Kirk.

 

Indeed, I feel a little bit embarressed, but please let me explain.

 

I wrote this history of South African Speedway nearly ten years ago. I didn't know then what I know now about the origins of Speedway. Hands up any of You who knew then that the Hoskins / Maitland story about the invention of speedway was just a myth.

 

I didn't know it, I admit that. All the reference works I read up to that time repeated the Hoskins' creation of speedway myth. Ten years on, I know that no-one has "invented" speedway, that the sport has evolved, and that it does not have a "Godfather".

 

At the time (2003) I believed in what I read about the birth of speedway, and really had no cause to doubt it.

 

Now, not least thanks to what I read on forums like this one, and thanks to the precious work of people like Ross Garrigan, whom I admire very much, I know better.

 

Let me tell You that by now I had already nearly forgotten what I wrote about the origins of the sport in that "75 years of speedway in SA". It was only a prelude to the main part, the South African Speedway history.

By the way, the work was never completed, You will notice that it stops with 1979. After that the SSRC newsletter was no longer published, and I did not continue with writing on that story. """

 

Jim Blanchard's Post is noted. I dare not say more in case I get a ban!

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[iris123]

Christian Weber is a member of this forum.Maybe he will contribute.But it does once again seem to blow a link up in someones face.No doubt there will be more dragged up from cyberspace or books fromthe 70s or 80s

[cyclone]

Jim Blanchard's Post is noted. I dare not say more in case I get a ban!

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

No disgrace in acknowledging that you were unaware that Christian Weber had revised his view, based on contemporary evidence that was unearthed later.

 

Christian's statement:-

 

"I didn't know it, I admit that. All the reference works I read up to that time repeated the Hoskins' creation of speedway myth. Ten years on, I know that no-one has "invented" speedway, that the sport has evolved, and that it does not have a "Godfather".

 

imo recognises the assiduous factual research carried out by others, particularly Ross Garrigan, & Norman Jacobs.

 

No one is belittling Johnny Hoskins significant contribution to Speedway, but it would be disingenuous to continue to credit him with something that has now conclusively been shown not to be the case.

[Ross Garrigan]

It's a shame you have taken that attitude but it's a free world. It means you will now probably never see this item on Brian Darby's excellent Australian speedway site. For those interested - oh, dear another website link - all will be revealed at:

http://speedwayarchives.homestead.com/

SCROLL DOWN TO SEE THIS PHOTO AND CAPTION:

Bill Crampton - the man who won the first ever Speedway race at West Maitland Showgrounds in December 1923.

 

I have asked Brian Darby if he believes that Johnnie Hoskins started/invented speedway at Maitland on December 15, 1923 and he replied that he does not. He is also surprised to learn that someone has seized upon something he wrote in a photo caption on one of his websites as proof that Hoskins had done just that.

 

I will admit that what "kennylane" has highlighted in red in his above-mentioned post can be interpreted in different ways and I mentioned that to Brian. The point here is that what appears on the website link was not written to suggest Johnnie Hoskins started/invented speedway at Maitland in December 1923 and so should not be cited as proof that he did.

 

Christian Weber is a member of this forum.Maybe he will contribute.But it does once again seem to blow a link up in someones face.No doubt there will be more dragged up from cyberspace or books fromthe 70s or 80s

 

I posted the below on the Speedway History Forum yesterday in response to Christian's posting there concerning his 10-year-old mention of Hoskins/Maitland which had been submitted by one party on this Forum as proof Hoskins had started/invented speedway at Maitland in December 1923: -

 

I grew up thinking Johnnie Hoskins had invented speedway at Maitland in December 1923. For all but the last decade plus of my adult life I believed Johnnie Hoskins had invented speedway at Maitland in Decemebr 1923. Why shouldn't I have believed that, it had been written for decades - it was speedway lore.

 

I have owned up to even writing years ago that Hoskins invented speedway at Maitland in December 1923. There was nobody saying he didn't. Now knowing the truth, I feel as if I had been 'cheated' all those years.

 

I have spent about a decade trying to convince others that the Hoskins/Maitland business is incorrect.

 

I fully understand what Christian writes in his posting. I feel embarrassed about what I wrote all those years ago too. I have been trying to make amends for that.

[oldace]

 

Bill Crampton - the man who won the first ever Speedway race at West Maitland Showgrounds in December 1923.

 

Or you could substitute it for this

 

Tommy Knudsen - the man who won the first ever Speedway race at Wembley Stadium in September 1981.

 

Both true, you have merely read into the statement incorrectly