Maitland Speedway Anniversary

[olddon]

Happy Birthday to speedway. December 15, 1923. West Maitland, Australia. And best regards to the late Johnnie Hoskins. Just check these great links. And do I see a reference to Johnnie Hoskins riding as well?

http://www.vintagespeedway.com/Maitland3.html

http://speedwayarchives.homestead.com/ (see the reference and photo of Bill Crampton towards the bottom of the page).

http://www.dickbarrie.co.uk/speedway/history.htm

http://www.ma.org.au/index.php?id=116

http://www.fim-live.com/en/sport/vintage/vintage-news-detail/article/1265287099-history-of-track-racing/

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

And just two years to the 90th. anniversary!!!

[norbold]

You missed out a link to Wikipedia, Jack. Why's that?

[kennylane]

Happy Birthday to speedway. December 15, 1923. West Maitland, Australia. And best regards to the late Johnnie Hoskins. Just check these great links. And do I see a reference to Johnnie Hoskins riding as well?

http://www.vintagesp.../Maitland3.html

http://speedwayarchives.homestead.com/ (see the reference and photo of Bill Crampton towards the bottom of the page).

http://www.dickbarri...way/history.htm

http://www.ma.org.au/index.php?id=116

http://www.fim-live....f-track-racing/

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

So Johnnie did claim the name of speedway then?

 

 

You missed out a link to Wikipedia, Jack. Why's that?

 

This comment by norbold does need an answer surely?

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

This comment by norbold does need an answer surely?

What was the signicance of norbold's comment..?

[BigFatDave]

You missed out a link to Wikipedia, Jack. Why's that?

Because, as you keep informing us, it's totally unreliable, Norbold, and full of biased commentary by people who like to rewrite history in their own image.

 

Many Happy Returns to Maitland - pronounced Mate-Land.

[olddon]

What was the signicance of norbold's comment..?

 

Perhaps believes in the authenticity of everything that appears on wikipedia - I think he has been busy rewriting the speedway history section on there!

I suggest Norbold takes a look at the Links I gave in the initial message to this thread - especially the one from the FIM. That has confirmed much in regard to Maitland 1923, Johnnie Hoskins involvement, and the use of the term speedway.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

Because, as you keep informing us, it's totally unreliable, Norbold, and full of biased commentary by people who like to rewrite history in their own image.

 

Many Happy Returns to Maitland - pronounced Mate-Land.

 

A nice supportive message from you BFD. In the message previous to this I have given my insight into the thoughts of Norbold and wikipedia. Your message shows that I am not a lone voice on this topic.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[norbold]

"I have diverted to Wikipedia in my research and found this and I also give the link for people to find more detailed commentary.

http://en.wikipedia....peedway#History

 

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT "

 

I apologise, Jack. Of course you did provide a link to wikipedia in an earlier debate and then defended the veracity of wikipedia through several more contributions, which can, of course, still be read on the "Next issue of Classic Speedway" Topic, so I know you are a great believer in wikipedia. I guess your forgetting to put a link in this time was just an oversight. Just as well I found your previous link then.

[olddon]

"I have diverted to Wikipedia in my research and found this and I also give the link for people to find more detailed commentary.

http://en.wikipedia....peedway#History

 

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT "

 

I apologise, Jack. Of course you did provide a link to wikipedia in an earlier debate and then defended the veracity of wikipedia through several more contributions, which can, of course, still be read on the "Next issue of Classic Speedway" Topic, so I know you are a great believer in wikipedia. I guess your forgetting to put a link in this time was just an oversight. Just as well I found your previous link then.

 

Well done Norbold. The latest links were however designed to give more input to the involvement of Johnnie Hoskins, when the first SPEEDWAY meeting took place and the use of the word speedway for meetings. It was not an oversight on my part - I was putting up links supportive of the date, the venue and good old JSH. To have again used the wikipedia link in my latest updating would have contradicted the value of the other links.

I hope you enjoyed them? At least we no longer have to worry about who won the first speedway race - one of the links gives that honour to Bill Crampton.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[BigFatDave]

"I have diverted to Wikipedia in my research and found this and I also give the link for people to find more detailed commentary.

http://en.wikipedia....peedway#History

 

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT "

 

I apologise, Jack. Of course you did provide a link to wikipedia in an earlier debate and then defended the veracity of wikipedia through several more contributions, which can, of course, still be read on the "Next issue of Classic Speedway" Topic, so I know you are a great believer in wikipedia. I guess your forgetting to put a link in this time was just an oversight. Just as well I found your previous link then.

No chance of you joining in THIS debate without throwing in yet another of your famed red herrings, I see. Another typical totally-off-topic post from Prevarication Central, courtesy of the forum's pet archaeologist.

[SHALEWAY69]

Re: MAITLAND SPEEDWAY ANNIVERSARY

 

 

 

 

-This is an observation on how we can sometimes get offside on recording history and this particulary relates to Maitland, .

 

Anyone involved in biographies and family histories would be aware that the

memories of family members are often selective or tinted by the passage of time.

If we are documenting these memoirs, for future generations, the trick is to

merge, or factor in, those recollections with the historical facts that we can

access to through the wonders of information technology We should try and nuture contacts with the few remaining people who have contacts with the pre war years...

 

The problem, as I see it is in the way we compose internet postings, often a

missing or ill chosen word,sparks off reactions from both sides. Of this I am as

guilty as the next person.

 

Face to face interviews are still the most productive because we establish a

relationship at the outset. If we look at the style of our respected writers,

Basil Storey,John Chaplin, Eric Linden, John Hyam, Cyril May etc, they all

based their stories on personal contact and got to know their subjects. Often

they travelled many miles to produce that copy. I think that John C travelled

to Australia to see Vic Duggan and Graham Warren. Another writer who has made

the effort to get out and meet pioneers is Steve Magro, well respected by the

older riders. This takes time and money.

 

I have tried to follow that approach over the last five years, words of wisdom

came from Reg Fearman, "Get out and see them before it is too late!" This

personal approach has reaped untold benefits. Over recent years I have shared

memories with visits to speedway families. I would like to think that I have

gained the confidence of those I have visited. Certainly doors have opened for

me that were firmly closed in the past.

 

Sadly there are very few identities still around with connections to the pre war

days,we should value and respect the remaining contacts we have. Ian Hoskins is

one who comes to mind, I wonder how many present day writers have attempted to

gain a face to face with Ian. From what we read he is wary of new historians,

although I have been around speedway for a long time, I would be placed in that

category when it comes to speedway history. A talk with Ian would be on my

bucket list, maybe we would agree to differ, but at least it would be eye to

eye.

 

In my home city of Brisbane we have a small network of historians who meet from

time to time, sharing info and material this has proved beneficial. Venues are

always an issue but I have a concept in mind to expand on in the near future.

 

thanks for reading this

 

 

Tony

[kennylane]

How do you regard this comment from

Re: MAITLAND SPEEDWAY ANNIVERSARY

 

 

 

 

-This is an observation on how we can sometimes get offside on recording history and this particulary relates to Maitland, .

 

Anyone involved in biographies and family histories would be aware that the

memories of family members are often selective or tinted by the passage of time.

If we are documenting these memoirs, for future generations, the trick is to

merge, or factor in, those recollections with the historical facts that we can

access to through the wonders of information technology We should try and nuture contacts with the few remaining people who have contacts with the pre war years...

 

The problem, as I see it is in the way we compose internet postings, often a

missing or ill chosen word,sparks off reactions from both sides. Of this I am as

guilty as the next person.

 

Face to face interviews are still the most productive because we establish a

relationship at the outset. If we look at the style of our respected writers,

Basil Storey,John Chaplin, Eric Linden, John Hyam, Cyril May etc, they all

based their stories on personal contact and got to know their subjects. Often

they travelled many miles to produce that copy. I think that John C travelled

to Australia to see Vic Duggan and Graham Warren. Another writer who has made

the effort to get out and meet pioneers is Steve Magro, well respected by the

older riders. This takes time and money.

 

I have tried to follow that approach over the last five years, words of wisdom

came from Reg Fearman, "Get out and see them before it is too late!" This

personal approach has reaped untold benefits. Over recent years I have shared

memories with visits to speedway families. I would like to think that I have

gained the confidence of those I have visited. Certainly doors have opened for

me that were firmly closed in the past.

 

Sadly there are very few identities still around with connections to the pre war

days,we should value and respect the remaining contacts we have. Ian Hoskins is

one who comes to mind, I wonder how many present day writers have attempted to

gain a face to face with Ian. From what we read he is wary of new historians,

although I have been around speedway for a long time, I would be placed in that

category when it comes to speedway history. A talk with Ian would be on my

bucket list, maybe we would agree to differ, but at least it would be eye to

eye.

 

In my home city of Brisbane we have a small network of historians who meet from

time to time, sharing info and material this has proved beneficial. Venues are

always an issue but I have a concept in mind to expand on in the near future.

 

thanks for reading this

 

 

Tony

 

How do you regard this comment from the FIM? http://www.fim-live....f-track-racing/

"The first vehicles created at the end of the 19th century were immediately put to run on roads or – if they existed – tracks. The first motorcycles were not very fast, but within a few years started to reach very high speeds. The idea of using an oval track or an athletic track around a football ground or even a horse track, came very early. Mentions made in California in 1902, in South Africa in 1907 or around a football ground in Ipswich (GBR) in 1904 are just a few of them.

 

"But the first event, with a real structure, is generally considered to be the one held in Australia in 1923. Australians took everything off the motorcycle which was not essential, in order to reduce weight, and put the bikes for racing on oval grounds. The first real record of a dirt track meeting was on Saturday 15 December 1923 in West Maitland. The event was organised by John Hoskins, who is generally considered as the “father” of speedway competition.

 

"Success came very fast, and within a couple of years other tracks were built in various cities all over Australia. News was sent from Australia to Great Britain and the idea came up to hold such an event there. It was first scheduled in November 1927 but permission was refused by the authorities. The event was finally staged on Sunday 19 February 1928 in High Beech."

Edited March 14, 2012 by kennylane

[BigFatDave]

Pretty straightforward, kennylane. Shame the self-aggrandising amateur historians among us can't face FACTS.

[speedyguy]

May I add this to an interesting debate. Note the reference to Johnnie Hoskins and Maitland 1923:

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oldtimespeedway/photos/album/2081692094/pic/2046350074/view?picmode=&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=21&count=20&dir=asc

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oldtimespeedway/photos/album/2081692094/pic/375550573/view?picmode=medium&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=21&dir=asc

These two items have been posted in the Early Days Beginnings photo album. Primarily they deal with AJ Hunting at Brisbane in 1927, but of significance there is also mention of Johnnie Hoskins at Maitland in December 1923. Both references mention “the start of speedway.”

Here is the text of Tony Webb’s original email to me:

 

On 15 Mar 2012, at 00:42, Tony Webb wrote:

There is an interesting article in this new book which credits Johnny Hoskins with Maitland and A J Hunting refining it as a sport and taking it worldwide!

``

150 Stories' to celebrate Brisbane

A new book '150 Stories' is being launched to help Brisbane celebrate its 150th birthday with tales of the city's history. This is not just another history book. It’s 150 vivid snapshots of our city across the 19th, 20th and 21st Centuries,

’’ Cr Newman said.``It’s a book dedicated to the people and stories that have made up Brisbane’s history. By focusing on the people, it’s a unique and personal look at our city.’‘

Brisbane 150 Stories covers well-known events such as the Brisbane riot of 1866 and the 1974 floods to obscure tales like the escaped tiger rampage on Queen St in 1888. It traces the rise of popular culture such as the city’s prominence as a music hotbed in the ‘70s and the creation of the Brisbane Lions AFL team.

Even long-term Brisbane residents will learn new things about their city through the book - iconic dance venue Cloudland was originally intended as a larger Luna Park attraction.

Five writers authored the book, including Council historians Brian Rough, Carmel Black, Frank McBride and the late Helen Taylor with Heather Richardson.

Books retail at $44.95 and are available from selected retail outlets, the Museum of Brisbane and Brisbane City Council libraries and service centres.

<Hunting AJ.jpg><Hunting aj 1927.jpg>

The original source is at - http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/oldtimespeedway/

[norbold]

No chance of you joining in THIS debate without throwing in yet another of your famed red herrings.

 

The major argument against speedway originating on 15 December 1923 at Maitland is the Monday December 17, 1923 Maitland Daily Mercury's report on the Saturday December 15 carnival, which says: -

 

"For the first time motor cycle racing was introduced into the programme and the innovation proved most successful. In an exhibition ride at the last sports several riders gave the track a good test and they then expressed themselves satisfied with it. They also stated that it was better than several other tracks that have been used for this kind of sport on a number of occasions..."

 

Note the last sentence particularly. Maitland’s own paper did not see the meeting on 15 December as anything new. The riders themselves were comparing Maitland to “several other tracks”

 

Even without going in to the developments in the USA stretching back to before the First World War and just taking Australia, the fact is that there are many reports of meetings similar to that put on by Hoskins prior to 1923 in places such as Townsville (as early as 1916), Rockhampton and Newcastle. Eleven months prior to the Maitland December 1923 carnival, which, incidentally, was held on a grass track, motor cycles had raced on a cinder circuit under lights at Adelaide’s Thebarton Oval.

 

It is true that what Maitland gave the sport of speedway was continuity by providing speedway on a regular basis as between 15 December 1923 and 26 April 1924 there were no fewer than 15 carnival meetings featuring motor cycle racing, with promoters Campbell and DuFrocq staging six of them and including a rider by the name of Charlie Datson who was to become one of the leading pioneers of the new sport of speedway.

 

But the meeting on 17 December was nothing new. It was not the ORIGIN of speedway.

Edited March 15, 2012 by norbold

[kennylane]

The major argument against speedway originating on 15 December 1923 at Maitland is the Monday December 17, 1923 Maitland Daily Mercury's report on the Saturday December 15 carnival, which says: -

 

"For the first time motor cycle racing was introduced into the programme and the innovation proved most successful. In an exhibition ride at the last sports several riders gave the track a good test and they then expressed themselves satisfied with it. They also stated that it was better than several other tracks that have been used for this kind of sport on a number of occasions..."

 

Note the last sentence particularly. Maitland’s own paper did not see the meeting on 15 December as anything new. The riders themselves were comparing Maitland to “several other tracks”

 

Even without going in to the developments in the USA stretching back to before the First World War and just taking Australia, the fact is that there are many reports of meetings similar to that put on by Hoskins prior to 1923 in places such as Townsville (as early as 1916), Rockhampton and Newcastle. Eleven months prior to the Maitland December 1923 carnival, which, incidentally, was held on a grass track, motor cycles had raced on a cinder circuit under lights at Adelaide’s Thebarton Oval.

 

It is true that what Maitland gave the sport of speedway was continuity by providing speedway on a regular basis as between 15 December 1923 and 26 April 1924 there were no fewer than 15 carnival meetings featuring motor cycle racing, with promoters Campbell and DuFrocq staging six of them and including a rider by the name of Charlie Datson who was to become one of the leading pioneers of the new sport of speedway.

 

But the meeting on 17 December was nothing new. It was not the ORIGIN of speedway.

 

A strong case on your part Norbold but equally so the FIM post must also have credence. The FIM is the official voice of affiliated motorcycle sport and must surely have checked their view on the start of speedway at Maitland.

And the message 14 re Maitland 1923 and Brisbane i 1927 also gives Australian support to speedway/s birth at Maitland on December 15 1923. I take it you did click in to read them?

[BigFatDave]

Sadly our amateur historian wears blinkers when it comes to reading anything that proves he's wrong, kennylane.

[kennylane]

A strong case on your part Norbold but equally so the FIM post must also have credence. The FIM is the official voice of affiliated motorcycle sport and must surely have checked their view on the start of speedway at Maitland.

And the message 14 re Maitland 1923 and Brisbane i 1927 also gives Australian support to speedway/s birth at Maitland on December 15 1923. I take it you did click in to read them?

May I add this to an interesting debate. Note the reference to Johnnie Hoskins and Maitland 1923:

 

 

http://groups.yahoo....ount=20&dir=asc

http://groups.yahoo....tart=21&dir=asc

These two items have been posted in the Early Days Beginnings photo album. Primarily they deal with AJ Hunting at Brisbane in 1927, but of significance there is also mention of Johnnie Hoskins at Maitland in December 1923. Both references mention “the start of speedway.”

Here is the text of Tony Webb’s original email to me:

 

On 15 Mar 2012, at 00:42, Tony Webb wrote:

There is an interesting article in this new book which credits Johnny Hoskins with Maitland and A J Hunting refining it as a sport and taking it worldwide!

``

150 Stories' to celebrate Brisbane

 

A new book '150 Stories' is being launched to help Brisbane celebrate its 150th birthday with tales of the city's history. This is not just another history book. It’s 150 vivid snapshots of our city across the 19th, 20th and 21st Centuries,

 

’’ Cr Newman said.``It’s a book dedicated to the people and stories that have made up Brisbane’s history. By focusing on the people, it’s a unique and personal look at our city.’‘

 

Brisbane 150 Stories covers well-known events such as the Brisbane riot of 1866 and the 1974 floods to obscure tales like the escaped tiger rampage on Queen St in 1888. It traces the rise of popular culture such as the city’s prominence as a music hotbed in the ‘70s and the creation of the Brisbane Lions AFL team.

 

Even long-term Brisbane residents will learn new things about their city through the book - iconic dance venue Cloudland was originally intended as a larger Luna Park attraction.

 

Five writers authored the book, including Council historians Brian Rough, Carmel Black, Frank McBride and the late Helen Taylor with Heather Richardson.

 

Books retail at $44.95 and are available from selected retail outlets, the Museum of Brisbane and Brisbane City Council libraries and service centres.

 

<Hunting AJ.jpg><Hunting aj 1927.jpg>

 

The original source is at - http://sports.groups...ldtimespeedway/

Sadly our amateur historian wears blinkers when it comes to reading anything that proves he's wrong, kennylane.

 

Hi BFD: So you think Norbold doesn't read links when they come up on here? I also especially thought the one about Maitland 1923 and Brisbane 1927 was fairly specific. And personally I also found the previous FIM post quite interesting in regard to the start of speedway.

Edited March 16, 2012 by kennylane

[stratton]

Sadly our amateur historian wears blinkers when it comes to reading anything that proves he's wrong, kennylane.

I think BFD he is far from a amateur and certainly is not blinkered its only his opinion at the end of the day.Ive learned loads off him,since i have been reading regularly on the forum and for me thats what it is all about NO RIGHT or WRONG only debate.

[olddon]

Speedway Star, page 25, March 17, 2012 -

 

JOHNNIE HOSKINS, MBE

 

The father of speedway racing - or at least that's what history decrees, although there is some question as to whether he really did run the first-ever dirt-track meeting in the world.

 

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT