WIE-JA Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 I will say Iris on the other thread, 4 points say it all really, no real answers to them from you or anyone. 1/ Humphrey [ who mentioned the crowds old format alot higher] 2/Parsloes who mentioned mike Lee aged17 / John louis aged 29 wouldnt get a chance in the gps straight away now.] 3.White Knights point about div 2 rider Jack Young wouldnt of got his chance either] 4./This point from Phil well is laughable really [i speak to the riders and they love the way the direction of the series is going .Because they know the same old faces a closed shop will have the bread and Butter of the sport for as long as most wants says it all really. Bet Rune Holta isn't saying it's easy to stay in as long as you want. World number 4 to non GP rider in one easy step. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted January 8, 2012 Report Share Posted January 8, 2012 Bet Rune Holta isn't saying it's easy to stay in as long as you want. World number 4 to non GP rider in one easy step. ONE example...! Phew! Very convincing argument!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIE-JA Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 ONE example...! Phew! Very convincing argument!!! OK smartarse. Protasiewizc, Walesek, Zagar,Mikael Max, Screen who lost his place through injury. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it wrong. The system isn't perfect but nothing is. Deal with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatDave Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) How much did it cost to get into Gorzow as opposed to King's Lynn? I'd never be surprised if more money was made on the gate at Lynn than at Gorzow. It cost a reasonably large amount of Zlotys, as opposed to your Pee-poor Pommy Pesos, and in Polska Zlotys don't grow on trees, Trees. Thankfully the Aussie Dollar is strong against third world currencies so it didn't cost us Aussies an arm and a leg, leaving us more to spend at the bar - and in the stadium at Gorzow THERE WASN"T A BAR!!!!. The Canute-like statements from some of the old fuddy-duddies on here never cease to amaze me - it's 2012, get with the program, youse mob, there will be more GPs on a Global Scale as IMG/BSI attempt to establish the GP Series as a viable alternative to F1 and MotoGPs etc. What do you think Ole Olsen is up to every year, apart from clocking up frequent-flyer points? Edited January 9, 2012 by BigFatDave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 . Bet Rune Holta isn't saying it's easy to stay in as long as you want. World number 4 to non GP rider in one easy step. Well that was a disgrace, i admire Rune was honest and rode through the pain barrier and got punished for it.Should of been supported like Nicky was.The system now is more flawed than the old one off,s. Actually it is vulnerable as it is for backhanders to come into operation.Those other points raised mostly brilliantly by Humphrey there does seem to be a silence.The last reply by WIE JA. seemed a very desperate point, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 OK smartarse. Protasiewizc, Walesek, Zagar,Mikael Max, Screen who lost his place through injury. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it wrong. The system isn't perfect but nothing is. Deal with it. As sidney says, smacks of desperation and - by no means not for the first time - there's a tone of agression by those who seek to defend the SGP system.. I can accept that there is an SGP system now - as you say, as it's a reality one has no choice but to "deal with it". But I find it really strange how a group of people on here are so ultra-defensive about the way the SGP is configured when there are irrefutable arguments that the field is too cosseted and it's far too designed around protecting those in it rather than encouraging those with ambition to qualify... References to Michael Max and Screeny which is surely going back quite a while is not the most convincing way of refuting those sort of points!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 If the series did say change to top the 8 then say the bottom 8 against 8 qualifyier,s for the right to be in the series. That would be a forward move,Imagine that on sky live a one off meeting would be brilliant.That would show the excitement that the old system brought, a result on the night this system is right for live tv excitement in abundance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatDave Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) As sidney says, smacks of desperation and - by no means not for the first time - there's a tone of agression by those who seek to defend the SGP system.. Not so much desperation but frustration, having to hide the eminently reasonable emotion of wanting to bang certain recalcitrant peoples' heads against the nearest brick wall, Parsloes ol' bean! Edited January 9, 2012 by BigFatDave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIE-JA Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Not so much desperation but frustration, having to hide the eminently reasonable emotion of wanting to bang certain recalcitrant peoples' heads against the nearest brick wall, Parsloes ol' bean! What this bloke said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 As sidney says, smacks of desperation and - by no means not for the first time - there's a tone of agression by those who seek to defend the SGP system.. I can accept that there is an SGP system now - as you say, as it's a reality one has no choice but to "deal with it". But I find it really strange how a group of people on here are so ultra-defensive about the way the SGP is configured when there are irrefutable arguments that the field is too cosseted and it's far too designed around protecting those in it rather than encouraging those with ambition to qualify... References to Michael Max and Screeny which is surely going back quite a while is not the most convincing way of refuting those sort of points!! Like BFD and others have pointed out,you have made your point a number of times.We know you and a few others don't like the GPs.I don't see what banging on and on about it all the time is going to do.Doesn't matter how many times it is pointed out that the old system was terribly flawed and not very popular with promoters nor fans either for that matter you ignore these facts.You go on about it only being a proper World Championship if all riders compete,but have you actually talked to one rider who thinks he has unfairly been left out of qualifying?Have you or Sidney got as many riders that say they dislike the system and feel it is flawed as Phil Rising has talked to who say they like the system?All over the world there are meetings used as qualifiers....The Australian Championship now is used as a qualifier is it not?And you just have to read what some promoters post here to know how difficult it can be sometimes for them to get British riders to travel within the borders of the country,so i don't see how it is likely that every rider will be willing and able to travel abroad for a qualifier if they get that far......It is just nonsense some old codgers are talking here,looking back at the good old days. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldace Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 The old World Final were every rider had a chance to qualify and no riders were given places, thats the myth but of course the reality was somewhat different. In 1970 the pole were seeded int 6 places in the final, yes 6!!! In 1973 They had 5 seeds In 1976 they had 4 In 1979 they dad 3 That equates to a over quarter of the field in those 4 finals being seeded It wasnt just the Poles though 1956 Craven seeded, Briggs in 58, Moore in 1960. Pete Collins was seeded straight to the inter continental final in 1977. The list goes on. The Brits had 4 guaranteed places in 1978, an injustice because we had probably 8 riders worthy of a place but the nature of qualyfiing that year meant it was impossible for more than 4 to make it. A bigger problem though was riders who were probably likely winners ending up not in the final, Olsen 76, Collins 78 throgh bad luck in 1 meeting of a season where they excelled. Now as to the "fact" that it is easier to stay in the top eight of the GP than qualify for a World Final. Wasnt qualification for a World Final largely about being in the top 8 (or anything up to 11) of various rounds along the way, starting against clearly inferior opposition getting gradually stronger as the rounds progressed but no where near the standard of each individual GP and yet some think qualifying via this route is easy As to qualifying in the year of the competition, well the Aussies used to often hold their rounds in the previous year. As an aside in May of this year (2012) two teams will contest the Champions League Final, a final they are eligible for based on form partly from 2010, is this competition lessened by this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Like BFD and others have pointed out,you have made your point a number of times.We know you and a few others don't like the GPs.I don't see what banging on and on about it all the time is going to do.Doesn't matter how many times it is pointed out that the old system was terribly flawed and not very popular with promoters nor fans either for that matter you ignore these facts.You go on about it only being a proper World Championship if all riders compete,but have you actually talked to one rider who thinks he has unfairly been left out of qualifying?Have you or Sidney got as many riders that say they dislike the system and feel it is flawed as Phil Rising has talked to who say they like the system?All over the world there are meetings used as qualifiers....The Australian Championship now is used as a qualifier is it not?And you just have to read what some promoters post here to know how difficult it can be sometimes for them to get British riders to travel within the borders of the country,so i don't see how it is likely that every rider will be willing and able to travel abroad for a qualifier if they get that far......It is just nonsense some old codgers are talking here,looking back at the good old days. I am know way a old codger i dont think i am anyway i am nearly as old as Parsloes and like to think i keep up with the times,and have seen both sides. I for one Iris cannot ever remember anyone say to me i dont like the one off finals.You are wrong about me anyway, i dont totally dislike the series i dislike the UNFAIRNESS of it. .But its when people like you try to make out i am in the notion of the good old days lets have them back it is not true.What we have now is it better than we had before? has it took us into the 21 century and made progress? my answer is a big NO it hasnt we are falling behind other sports if anything.Only my humble opinion ,you make out me and Parsloes are from the dark ages we are not i think he like me feel things are not as great as people like you make out.Transparaty of the sport would help alot as well. Not so much desperation but frustration, having to hide the eminently reasonable emotion of wanting to bang certain recalcitrant peoples' heads against the nearest brick wall, Parsloes ol' bean! Very unfair in my mind BFD but i respect yours and others opinions i think Parsloes points are well made.If anything people who are in love with it now to me are the ones who get a bit defensive and prickly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 What we have now is it better than we had before? has it took us into the 21 century and made progress? my answer is a big NO it hasnt we are falling behind other sports if anything.Only my humble opinion , Again i say to your questions both YES +YES.It most certainly is better than what we had before and it most certainly has made progress and moved into the 21 century.It is a far fairer way of deciding a world champion.very hard to either fluke or buy a title in the GP series.Much much harder than the previous system.And just look at the presentation at for instance Parken or even Gelsenkirchen the first year and i imagine Cardiff as well.I find it far far better than anything i have seen at league level.It is a great atmosphere and moves along at a good pace until the latter stages at least(which tend to drag imo) and is visually very colourful and exciting.You just can't compare it to any league venue,which still tend to be more 1950s than 2012.So please tell us who you have talked to that was unfairly left out of the qualification rounds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 I am know way a old codger i dont think i am anyway i am nearly as old as Parsloes and like to think i keep up with the times... Hmm, I'm not exactly ancient meself! And - though it be a different field of interest! - check out how many gigs I went to last year (in separate thread, 'natch!) to see how much,I in fact, I "am down with the yoof"!!! There's this crazy assumption on here that if yiou express a certain point of view you're in some way prehistoric!!! Like BFD and others have pointed out,you have made your point a number of times.We know you and a few others don't like the GPs.I don't see what banging on and on about it all the time is going to do. Hmm, less of the "old codgers" - am fairly certain I'm younger than you!!!!! But yes fair enuff, this theme has indeed been banged on long enough by now, so I shall go into (youthful!) retirement on the subject!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Again i say to your questions both YES +YES.It most certainly is better than what we had before and it most certainly has made progress and moved into the 21 century.It is a far fairer way of deciding a world champion.very hard to either fluke or buy a title in the GP series.Much much harder than the previous system.And just look at the presentation at for instance Parken or even Gelsenkirchen the first year and i imagine Cardiff as well.I find it far far better than anything i have seen at league level.It is a great atmosphere and moves along at a good pace until the latter stages at least(which tend to drag imo) and is visually very colourful and exciting.You just can't compare it to any league venue,which still tend to be more 1950s than 2012.So please tell us who you have talked to that was unfairly left out of the qualification rounds? I really think it is a interesting debate,your point about the presentation Parken is a excellent one. A couple of points, i would like to make i think to win in the old format was a lot HARDER certainly mentally i think.theyre were some flaws in the old system, but over time i feel the best riders did win it.The odd shock but generally the best came to the top i think you can say that by over a 60 year period how many legends there are.The gp series is to me more of a marathon now a different quality needed and is different week to week.Who has missed out in the series qualifying nobody really but its that feeling at sometimes not everybody getting the chance when they want one.Another point which i say now is apparent which for me says alot is.Over the years now in the the one offs some finals you had up to 8/10/12 riders who at there best was a equal and new in there own mind had the ability to WIN a world title now i think at the top end this is not the case.In the gpseries now i think it is less competetive ,the odd race and meeting maybe over a period no.Hancock Crump Gollob, Hampel the only ones with any chance of winning the series Jonsson and the russian real outside chances. That is i think because not anough fresh faces are getting a chance at the RIGHT TIME to step up to the plate to test there ability.Two sports who i compare speedway with Darts and Snooker different faces qualifying for events and actually going on and winning them.Both those sports have EVERY tournament at least 20 people who could win it in speedway because of the closed shop we dont have it. I really think it is a interesting debate,your point about the presentation Parken is a excellent one. A couple of points, i would like to make i think to win in the old format was a lot HARDER certainly mentally i think.theyre were some flaws in the old system, but over time i feel the best riders did win it.The odd shock but generally the best came to the top i think you can say that by over a 60 year period how many legends there are.The gp series is to me more of a marathon now a different quality needed and is different week to week.Who has missed out in the series qualifying nobody really but its that feeling at sometimes not everybody getting the chance when they want one.Another point which i say now is apparent which for me says alot is.Over the years now in the the one offs some finals you had up to 8/10/12 riders who at there best was a equal and new in there own mind had the ability to WIN a world title now i think at the top end this is not the case.In the gpseries now i think it is less competetive ,the odd race and meeting maybe over a period no.Hancock Crump Gollob, Hampel the only ones with any chance of winning the series Jonsson and the russian real outside chances. That is i think because not anough fresh faces are getting a chance at the RIGHT TIME to step up to the plate to test there ability.Two sports who i compare speedway with Darts and Snooker different faces qualifying for events and actually going on and winning them.Both those sports have EVERY tournament at least 20 people who could win it in speedway because of the closed shop we dont have it. Hmm, I'm not exactly ancient meself! And - though it be a different field of interest! - check out how many gigs I went to last year (in separate thread, 'natch!) to see how much,I in fact, I "am down with the yoof"!!! There's this crazy assumption on here that if yiou express a certain point of view you're in some way prehistoric!!! Hmm, less of the "old codgers" - am fairly certain I'm younger than you!!!!! But yes fair enuff, this theme has indeed been banged on long enough by now, so I shall go into (youthful!) retirement on the subject!! I am the same will say no more on it ,been good though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Oh sorry.Guess i should have known you like the basic idea,but not the way Bavarian said it should be run But as White Knight hasn't put any part in bold then the question goes out to him.But seeing as he didn't answer,nor as far as i know did sidney answer any of my points on the other thread,after i so painstakingly answered his points i might be waiting a while for an answer....... Sorry iris - but - what question?? Ask away and I will do my best to answer it if I can. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatDave Posted January 9, 2012 Report Share Posted January 9, 2012 Very unfair in my mind BFD but i respect yours and others opinions i think Parsloes points are well made.If anything people who are in love with it now to me are the ones who get a bit defensive and prickly. I'm sure you've been on here long enough to realise by now that in the vast majority of my posts I turn for guidance to the Wit and Wisdom of Mao-Tse-Tongue-in-cheek. As I've said it's more frustration with the constant repetition of points that have been disproved both on this and the previous thread that cheeses me off - it's enough to drive a man to drink - and drugs - and the pursuit of loose women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 I'm sure you've been on here long enough to realise by now that in the vast majority of my posts I turn for guidance to the Wit and Wisdom of Mao-Tse-Tongue-in-cheek. As I've said it's more frustration with the constant repetition of points that have been disproved both on this and the previous thread that cheeses me off - it's enough to drive a man to drink - and drugs - and the pursuit of loose women. Yes we will all go into early retirement on that subject now well exhausted .Mind you the turning to drink and loose women seems ok though, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryW Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I missed the wrapping up of this thread earlier today, so thought I'd make my final comments If the series did say change to top the 8 then say the bottom 8 against 8 qualifyier,s for the right to be in the series. That would be a forward move,Imagine that on sky live a one off meeting would be brilliant.That would show the excitement that the old system brought, a result on the night this system is right for live tv excitement in abundance. Wouldn't that actually be a backward move as it was roughly what they used to have in place in the early days of the GP system. (not that I am suggesting something is necessarily a bad idea just because it was tried and dumped before) References to Michael Max and Screeny which is surely going back quite a while is not the most convincing way of refuting those sort of points!! On the subject of it being too easy to stay in the GP series, I would suggest that entirely depends on what Nation you come from. I think that riders like Wieslaw Jagus, Jarek Hampel, Krzysztof Kasprzak, Subastian Ulamek, Grzegorz Walasek, Janusz Kolodziej and Rune Holta may disagree. These Poles have all been dropped from the series during the last 5 years. As for the field not changing enough, I would return to my statement that the top riders in the World don't actually differ that much from year to year, so it's entirely reasonable not to expect a complete overhaul of the competitors each season if the series actually wants the best (which I accept it doesn't have in 2012 due to the issues with the Polish League rules) If you go back 5 seasons to 2007 you will find that 9 of the riders that competed regularly that year have been eliminated from the series for at least 1 season since then. The six riders who have competed each season since then are Nicki Pedersen, Jason Crump, Tomasz Gollob, Greg Hancock, Chris Harris and Andreas Jonsson. Three of the 2007 field have subsequently returned to the series through the qualifying rounds (Bjarne Pedersen, Antonio Lindback and Jaroslaw Hampel) and one has been handed a place due to the aforementioned issues with the Polish League rules (Hans Andersen). From 2008, 8 of the regulars suffered elimination at some point. 2009 sees 6 having dropped out, 2010 had 4 and 2011 had 4, although one of those (Lindback again) has immediately returned through the qualifiers. So what we actually see is a pattern of the field slowly changing over the years, which is exactly what I would expect as some riders drop down the rankings and new ones come in to replace them. The only thing that is maybe slightly surprising is that Greg Hancock and Tomasz Gollob have continued to hang around for so long, but I'm not sure I could make a decent argument that they aren't deserving of their place in the series Edited January 10, 2012 by HenryW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIE-JA Posted January 10, 2012 Report Share Posted January 10, 2012 References to Michael Max and Screeny which is surely going back quite a while is not the most convincing way of refuting those sort of points!! Oh I am sorry. I didn't realise there was a time limit on when riders would be dissapionted on loosing their GP place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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