Gp Qualifier Berwick 16/6

[WIE-JA]

Ljung did he come in because of PEPE?

 

Yeah Pepe dropped out after qualifying and Ljung was the next in line from the qualifying meeting.

[oldace]

Yeah Pepe dropped out after qualifying and Ljung was the next in line from the qualifying meeting.

 

Martin Vaculík and Krzysztof Kasprzak were above him

[stratton]

Depends on how you interpret "underserving" Was Muller a deserved winner in 83? certainly he was the best rider on the day, no luck involved and he would have won that meeting if it had been re staged the next day, and the day after that, it would have taken a mechanical failure to stop Muller at Norden. He was of course one of the worlds top longtrackers and holding a speedway final on a mini longtrack in his own back garden gifted him the title.

I think Lee, Nielsen, Sanders, Carter, Sigalos, were the best 5 riders i see in 1983.I think all of them can feel unlucky because they all probably would of beat Muller 7 times out of 10 but on the day he was flying.I got there Norden at 6 in the morning and it was chucking it down had heard Muller had had loads of practice still didnt think he would win it though.See Lee that month and thought he would take some stopping Muller was top notch and i enjoyed watching him ride.

[WIE-JA]

Martin Vaculík and Krzysztof Kasprzak were above him

 

Yes you're right. Been a few months since I watched the meeting. Didn't those riders turn the chance down to concentrate on the Polish League with its restrictions on GP riders?

[g13webb]

I suppose it depends on your perception of the world championship. If you consider the world championship is about finding the best rider in the world over an entire season then the current system pretty much does the trick.

 

If you simply want variety and an ever changing field of riders, no matter what standard they are and the possibility of an undeserving world champion then it fails

 

I understand your point of view and can appreciate what you say about the top riders competing for the top prize. Theres a certain amount of credit in what you say, but at what cost?

 

When the SGP first started, I sat down and thoroughly enjoyed the spectical of this new concept. There weren’t too many rounds and the process was about right. But now after a few years we have the same riders competing every year ( bar a odd change), we have twice as many rounds and the enjoyment seem to be taken a back seat in the quest to milk more money out of the event. That wouldn’t be so bad if the sport was to benefit, but we get no reward from this at all.

 

We now have an SGP event. 16 riders taken part spread over 12 meetings. Of those 16, probably, only 10 have a realistic chance of winning the title. After 4 rounds, that 10 decreases to, say 5or 6, so now we still have 8 rounds to go and already, 10 have given up all hope of winning and are only concentrating on the next years competition. As the rounds tick by, then the number of potential winners decrease. Someone who, say is in 6^th place, competes in the last few rounds, assured that he’s qualified for next year with no hope of winning the title, he can do so with no enthusiasm as all. And this is suppose to be the World Championship, the biggest competition ever.

 

By assuring the top riders race each year, I believe this has devalued the competition, not made it better. Theres no passion anymore, no romance, nothing that compares to that of a World Championship. By assuring all the top riders are in the SGP, the appeal to the public and fellow riders has deminished.

Edited March 6, 2012 by GRW123

[oldace]

I think Lee, Nielsen, Sanders, Carter, Sigalos, were the best 5 riders i see in 1983.I think all of them can feel unlucky because they all probably would of beat Muller 7 times out of 10 but on the day he was flying.I got there Norden at 6 in the morning and it was chucking it down had heard Muller had had loads of practice still didnt think he would win it though.See Lee that month and thought he would take some stopping Muller was top notch and i enjoyed watching him ride.

 

On any other track those riders would have beat Muller 10 times out of ten. Around Norden Muller would beat them 10 times out of ten. It was like holding a world final on the ice racing track in Assen then being surprised a Russian ice racer wins

 

I understand your point of view and can appreciate what you say about the top riders competing for the top prize. Theres a certain amount of credit in what you say, but at what cost?

 

When the SGP first started, I sat down and thoroughly enjoyed the spectical of this new concept. There weren’t too many rounds and the process was about right. But now after a few years we have the same riders competing every year ( bar a odd change), we have twice as many rounds and the enjoyment seem to be taken a back seat in the quest to milk more money out of the event. That wouldn’t be so bad if the sport was to benefit, but we get no reward from this at all.

 

We now have an SGP event. 16 riders taken part spread over 12 meetings. Of those 16, probably, only 10 have a realistic chance of winning the title. After 4 rounds, that 10 decreases to, say 5or 6, so now we have still 8 rounds to go and already, 10 have given up all hope of winning and are only concentrating on the next years competition. As the rounds tick by, then the number of potential winners decrease. Someone who, say is in 6^th place, competes in the last few rounds, assured that he’s qualified for next year with no hope of winning the title, he can do so with no enthusiasm as all. And this is suppose to be the World Championship, the biggest competition ever.

 

But assuring the top riders race each year, I believe this has devalued the competition, not made it better. Theres no passion anymore, no romance, nothing that compares to that of a World Championship. By assuring all the top riders are in the SGP, the appeal to the public and fellow riders has deminished.

 

It's all about opinions I suppose and although crowds at the venues are reasonable TV audiences have dipped the last few years so there may be merit in what you say, time will tell

[stratton]

On any other track those riders would have beat Muller 10 times out of ten. Around Norden Muller would beat them 10 times out of ten. It was like holding a world final on the ice racing track in Assen then being surprised a Russian ice racer wins

 

 

 

It's all about opinions I suppose and although crowds at the venues are reasonable TV audiences have dipped the last few years so there may be merit in what you say, time will tell

I must admit when the masters series started i really liked the vision.i didnt enjoy the Berger g prix meetings at all to be honest.For all i say the gp series does work and maybe just 6 to 8 meetings is the answer or is it just a money making cow? i dont know.

[PHILIPRISING]

WHERE is your evidence that TV audiences have dropped?

 

Lack of new faces is hardly the fault of BSI but, hopefully with a new tranche of talent beginning to emerge that will change in the not too distant future. There are still many young riders with genuine world title aspirations although, sadly, in the UK we can only hope that Tai Woffinden's challenge gets back on the rails.

 

Elsewhere, and especially in Australia, Denmark, Poland and Sweden there are many ready to step into the void that will inevitably be left by Hancock, Gollob and probably Crump in the not to distant future.

 

The higher profile that the championship attains, and the Monster Energy deal can only enhance that, the more likely it is that young riders will want to take part and if that can include the USA, with Hamill and Hancock at the helm, then so much the better.

 

What is still lacking is a coherent youth policy in Britain.

 

As for a reduced SGP series ... it won't happen. There is a queue of prospective stadiums lining up to stage a GP, inside and outside of Europe.

[oldace]

WHERE is your evidence that TV audiences have dropped?

 

Lack of new faces is hardly the fault of BSI but, hopefully with a new tranche of talent beginning to emerge that will change in the not too distant future. There are still many young riders with genuine world title aspirations although, sadly, in the UK we can only hope that Tai Woffinden's challenge gets back on the rails.

 

Elsewhere, and especially in Australia, Denmark, Poland and Sweden there are many ready to step into the void that will inevitably be left by Hancock, Gollob and probably Crump in the not to distant future.

 

The higher profile that the championship attains, and the Monster Energy deal can only enhance that, the more likely it is that young riders will want to take part and if that can include the USA, with Hamill and Hancock at the helm, then so much the better.

 

What is still lacking is a coherent youth policy in Britain.

 

As for a reduced SGP series ... it won't happen. There is a queue of prospective stadiums lining up to stage a GP, inside and outside of Europe.

 

Phil the BARB figures (which I know are not entirely accurate) for speedway have dipped the last few years, nothing drastic but a downward trend all the same. It can possibly be accounted for as extra sports channels have become available and internet streaming (theft) is rife.

 

British speedway has long been trying to fly in the face of the GP series when in reality it gave British speedway 3 hours of prime time advertising every other Saturday evening.

[PHILIPRISING]

SO you are just talking about the Sky viewing figures in the UK. But the SGP is an international event, shown either live, delayed or through a highlights package to many, many millions.

 

It is far too easy to see the SGP just through the eyes of British observers rather than the bigger picture. Sure, the British GP as an event is the jewel in the crown but, for example, Poland, Sweden and Denmark are all sending their own commentary teams to New Zealand. And the World feed, which will include Steve Johnston on site, will go to a host of countries including Australia.

[Humphrey Appleby]

WHERE is your evidence that TV audiences have dropped?

 

Where is the evidence they haven't? We keep hearing about all these countries in which the SGP is now shown, but what sort of viewing figures are we talking about?

 

For the record as well, I travel regularly in Europe and to some extent elsewhere in the world, and I've yet to see the SGP shown anywhere but the 3 or 4 main speedway countries (and I do make a point of looking). If highlights are shown in all the claimed countries, I can only assume they're on some obscure channel in the middle of the night.

 

Lack of new faces is hardly the fault of BSI

 

Well it is to some extent, because new faces come through domestic competition which has subsumed by the SGP. In addition, there are far fewer opportunities for new names to break into the SGP compared to the old World Championship system, because it's not just a case of getting recognised, but also coming from the right country at the right time and having the right backing.

 

As for a reduced SGP series ... it won't happen. There is a queue of prospective stadiums lining up to stage a GP, inside and outside of Europe.

 

Yes, but it's not just about having the stadium, but also putting up a suitable amount of cash to stage a GP. If it's so attractive to stage a GP, why has there only been one staged outside Europe to date, and 10 years and at least two abortive attempts to get the next one?

 

For all i say the gp series does work and maybe just 6 to 8 meetings is the answer or is it just a money making cow? i dont know.

 

The more GPs, the more money can be raised from staging fees and possibly television as well. I suspect the main limitation is the number of willing tracks and the number of wage paying meetings you can reasonably expect the riders to give up.

 

However, if the SGP expands much more during the European season, it will start to come into conflict with Poland. At the moment, the 12 rounds can just about be fitted around the Polish league season, but I suspect neither the Polish clubs or their riders will be very happy if they have to start missing meetings they earn their bread-and-butter from.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Humphrey Appleby

[PHILIPRISING]

THERE is no need to increase the number of GPs in Europe. But some of those presently staging one may drop out and others come in. Australia and the USA are very much on the horizon.

 

IMG's involvement in motorsport events is relatively new but is growing significantly.

 

Countries showing the GP series in 2012: Australia, Balkans, Bulgaria, China, Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Germany, Great Britain, Hungary, India, Middle East, New Zealand, Poland, Romania, Russia and Baltics, Singapore, Slovakia and Sweden.

 

Also Africa Supersport which includes South Africa and many others. Eurosport and in South America Fox America.

 

I simply don't accept that domestic speedway in Australia, Denmark, Sweden or Poland has been subsumed by the SGP or that the problems of British speedway can be laid at their door rather than Rugby.

 

The only way that the SGP can grow and prosper - and I do accept and understand that many people in the UK don't see that as being a good thing - is for a company like BSI/IMG with the vision, professionalism, and willingness to speculate to accumulate being at the helm. Of course they do so for sound commercial reasons and to make a profit on their not inconsiderable outlay. I don't have any problem with that at all and still believe that the real issue is what the FIM do for speedway as a whole and with the income they glean not just from BSI/IMG but also licence and inscription fees that swell their coffers.

 

QUITE obviously, Humphrey, the logistical problems and expense of freighting around 300 kilos of freight per rider around the world, let alone 15 riders and 45 mechanics, have proved a major obstacle but the New Zealand GP will show how it can be done and will unquestionably open a few doors in the future.

[Humphrey Appleby]

The only way that the SGP can grow and prosper - and I do accept and understand that many people in the UK don't see that as being a good thing - is for a company like BSI/IMG with the vision, professionalism, and willingness to speculate to accumulate being at the helm.

 

Whilst I have reservations about the actual vision and professionalism of BSI who to me, only appear good in comparison to the very low standards of the rest of the sport, I don't entirely disagree. The problem though, is even if the SGP disappears off into the sunset sweeping all before it, where does that leave the rest of speedway?

 

I can honestly say that if the future of speedway is a touring individual circus, that will not be speedway as I know it and frankly it might as well be tiddlywinks.

 

Countries showing the GP series in 2012: Australia, Balkans, Bulgaria, China, Czech Republic, Denmark, France, Germany, Great Britain, Hungary, India, Middle East, New Zealand, Poland, Romania, Russia and Baltics, Singapore, Slovakia and Sweden. Also Africa Supersport which includes South Africa and many others. Eurosport and in South America Fox America.

 

Without wishing to appear pedantic, the 'Balkans', 'Baltics' and 'Middle East' are not countries which suggests these are regions that can receive SGP coverage on channels distributed by satellite, but that doesn't indicate how many people might actually be watching. Are there are figures available as how many people watch the SGP in (say) China or South Africa?

 

QUITE obviously, Humphrey, the logistical problems and expense of freighting around 300 kilos of freight per rider around the world, let alone 15 riders and 45 mechanics, have proved a major obstacle but the New Zealand GP will show how it can be done and will unquestionably open a few doors in the future.

 

Yes, but many other relatively minor sports manage to stage WC/GP rounds outside Europe, not to mention MotoGP, Superbikes and even Motocross, so it can't entirely be down to logistical problems.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Humphrey Appleby

[PHILIPRISING]

Whilst I have reservations about the actual vision and professionalism of BSI who to me, only appear good in comparison to the very low standards of the rest of the sport, I don't entirely disagree. The problem though, is even if the SGP disappears off into the sunset sweeping all before it, where does that leave the rest of speedway?

 

I can honestly say that if the future of speedway is a touring individual circus, that will not be speedway as I know it and frankly it might as well be tiddlywinks.

 

 

 

Without wishing to appear pedantic, the 'Balkans', 'Baltics' and 'Middle East' are not countries which suggests these are regions that can receive SGP coverage on channels distributed by satellite, but that doesn't indicate how many people might actually be watching. Are there are figures available as how many people watch the SGP in (say) China or South Africa?

 

 

 

Yes, but many other relatively minor sports manage to stage WC/GP rounds outside Europe, not to mention MotoGP, Superbikes and even Motocross, so it can't entirely be down to logistical problems.

 

BUT speedway, unlike MotoGP, Superbikes and MX, hasn't had the finances to overcome the logistical problems which have been a major obstacle but will be less so in the future.

 

I am quite aware that the Balkans, etc, are not individual countries but, as with F1 in the early days when Eccelstone brilliantly trumped up global viewing figures to enhance the product's potential and perceived value to sponsors, it is not the breakdown that matters in the final analysis, rather the total numbers. And, of course, every little bit of TV income helps.

 

I am afraid you have little or no idea of the workings of BSI or the manner in which they go about their business. I have worked in this industry all my life and they have some very talented people encouraged by a company (IMG) that have very high standards. Your continual carping at them just belittles your own arguments.

 

Unlike you I happen to believe that the stronger the SGP series becomes and the wider its audience either live or on TV the better the prospects for speedway as a whole but it is up to the respective countries to build upon and grasp that success rather than just expect the number of bums on seats to magically increase.

 

I don't ever envisage the day when GP riders will not compete in domestic leagues. That will remain their bread and butter and speedway riders enjoy it. No matter what the financial rewards, 12 meetings a year, or even 15, would hardly satisfy their appetites for actual racing which is, after all, what they love. This is yet another aspect in which speedway is so very different to MotoGP, Superbikes and even F1.

[PHILIPRISING]

I FULLY respect your right to view the SGP concept as an aberration and 'not fit for purpose' but that shouldn't colour your judgement about the manner in which BSI conduct their business, the high quality work they produce and the meticulous manner in which they approach and organise the actual staging of each Grand Prix.

[Humphrey Appleby]

I FULLY respect your right to view the SGP concept as an aberration and 'not fit for purpose' but that shouldn't colour your judgement about the manner in which BSI conduct their business, the high quality work they produce and the meticulous manner in which they approach and organise the actual staging of each Grand Prix.

 

I don't think I've ever suggested the SGP isn't fit for purpose, and have acknowledged the successful aspects of BSI's involvement. It's not entirely my cup of tea, but if evolves into a full-time series that gets people interested in the rest of the sport, that would be fair enough.

 

However, I don't think it's unreasonable to analyse the hype and claims that are made by the SGP and its supporters. When one puts actual facts and figures to the SGP since BSI's involvement, the reality is that it's watched by much the same number of fans and in much the same stadiums (with two obvious exceptions) as the World Championship was 20 years ago. Yes, it's admittedly now shown regularly (semi-)live television which I agree is an improvement, but equally I think that's as much a reflection of the huge growth in cable and satellite television and its need for content (by way of example even grasstrack meetings in fields are on television these days).

 

Okay, there's a reasonable argument that speedway may have declined even further in the public consciousness without the SGP. Equally though, despite have the pick of dates, riders willing to ride for well below market rates, and reasonable television exposure, has the SGP really developed that much in the past 12 years despite the proclaimed talent and ability of IMG/BSI? A company that's BTW lost how many millions recently?

 

I could also go on (again) about the ridiculous arrangements whereby the rest of speedway doesn't benefit financially from its premier event, but that (probably) is not the fault of IMG/BSI.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Humphrey Appleby

[WIE-JA]

(by way of example even grasstrack meetings in fields are on television these days).

 

 

Grasstrack was shown more regular on TV back in the '60s than it is now. Apparently even the mighty Beeb would show coverage from certain meetings on prime time Saturdays. The last time the BBC covered it was probably about 1989 or 1990. Now it's only shown sporadically on Motors TV.

[g13webb]

 

Unlike you I happen to believe that the stronger the SGP series becomes and the wider its audience either live or on TV the better the prospects for speedway as a whole but it is up to the respective countries to build upon and grasp that success rather than just expect the number of bums on seats to magically increase..

 

Reading between them lines , are you saying that this country is not doing all it can to promote speedway , in the same way as other countries.

 

I've always believed we are the worst of marketing our sport.

 

Looking at the BBC sport website, they cover all aspects of sport (48 in total) but not one mention of Speedway.

 

Surely the BSPA should've picked up on that before now and done something about it.

[PHILIPRISING]

Reading between them lines , are you saying that this country is not doing all it can to promote speedway , in the same way as other countries. I've always believed we are the worst of marketing our sport. Looking at the BBC sport website, they cover all aspects of sport (48 in total) but not one mention of Speedway. Surely the BSPA should've picked up on that before now and done something about it.

 

EXACTLY!

[Humphrey Appleby]

Reading between them lines , are you saying that this country is not doing all it can to promote speedway , in the same way as other countries.

 

I don't think anyone would deny that the promotion of British speedway is dreadful, and has been for a long time. To some extent it's a problem of the sport becoming de-capitalised, but when you look at the efforts of the official commercial rights company, it's looks pretty woeful.

 

None of this means that the SGP efforts are great though. I appreciate it's the close season, but a search of the BBC sport website reveals precisely three brief mentions of the SGP in the past couple of years.