Gp Qualifier Berwick 16/6

[stratton]

Sidney - can you tell me in what year an 18 year old won the speedway world final, as I must have missed it. Or even a 500-1 long shot did?

Emil finished on the rostrum in 2009, was not that far off winning it, so I'm not sure how you can rule out the possibility of a teenager ever winning the GP.

Of course, the chances of a 500-1 long shot winning it are very slim (by definition) - but notably the examples you have given won "knockout" compeitions, whereas the chances of an upset in a league style event are much slimmer - not because of "open" or "closed" shop, but because performances are needed to be sustained over a whople year - just as the FA cup has a much greater chance of an upset victor than the Permiership.

The examples given by endless people on here are there to see, Lee, Moore, Louis( a different age scale and exsperience looking back what a achievement for Tiger) Collins.They are just a few named theyre is no doubt in my my mind those named would no way of got a chance REGULARLY as they did now in the series.For me when i have seen at least 10 riders (riders i admire i must add) regularly ride over 3 years now in the gp it is odvious to me that it is a closed shop.Crump Gollob Hampel Jonsson Saydifunov Holder Bjerre Hancock Pedersen Harris Lindgren. 11 named most of them if not all of them will be in it the series as LONG they want to.They are the right riders of course but that is not the point 11 the main core are nearly guaranteed to be in it.Even 2 of the new faces in it this year Andersen and Lindback have had endless chances i am not saying it is WRONG just pointing out things.

[oldace]

The examples given by endless people on here are there to see, Lee, Moore, Louis( a different age scale and exsperience looking back what a achievement for Tiger) Collins.They are just a few named theyre is no doubt in my my mind those named would no way of got a chance REGULARLY as they did now in the series.For me when i have seen at least 10 riders (riders i admire i must add) regularly ride over 3 years now in the gp it is odvious to me that it is a closed shop.Crump Gollob Hampel Jonsson Saydifunov Holder Bjerre Hancock Pedersen Harris Lindgren. 11 named most of them if not all of them will be in it the series as LONG they want to.They are the right riders of course but that is not the point 11 the main core are nearly guaranteed to be in it.Even 2 of the new faces in it this year Andersen and Lindback have had endless chances i am not saying it is WRONG just pointing out things.

 

 

For Moore, Lee, Collins etc you can substitute Sayfutinov, Woffinden, Ward etc. Young talent gets the same opportunity now as then, probably more so.

[stratton]

For Moore, Lee, Collins etc you can substitute Sayfutinov, Woffinden, Ward etc. Young talent gets the same opportunity now as then, probably more so.

Those first 3 named are GREATS are you for real no comparrison.

[oldace]

Those first 3 named are GREATS are you for real no comparrison.

 

I assumed you were referring to Lee of 1977 vintage, Collins of 1973 etc, i.e when they made their debuts. Of course they went on to be greats in much the same way as the three I mentioned may well do in the future.

[g13webb]

Ole Olsen has a lot to answer for……..

 

I can understand what Sidney says about the romance of the old’ World Finals, having been fortunate to go 7 finals, I count myself very priviledged to have sampled the wonderful atmosphere and excitement that is so evidents of those occasions . They were the pinnicle of every aspiration of a rider, everyone had the opportunity to be there with a chance of being Champion, and this is what made them so special.

 

I appreciate that time moves on, and that new ideas take over. Ole was the advacate of the Grand Prix system. He wanting a scenario of the best riders racing for the world title, yeah I can understand his reasons, but once this SGP was implimented, the romance then goes out of the window.

 

Because the idea was to have all the top riders racing all the time, this has in-effect created a closed shop syndrome. So each year we will have 13 of the previous years riders, racing around in a the same monotenous manner of each Grand Prix.

 

There will always be those who agree or disagree with the merits of the SGP system. There will never be harmony amongst us all. There will be those who will argue which is best, there will be others who will be outspoken in their views, but at the end of the day it will make no difference. Nobody ever listens to the supporters. The organisers will carry on regardless making money from this Blue Riband event with skant concern for the sport its represents.

 

Note!!! I was fortunate to marry a sport minded wife who joins me in watching many varied sports. But she has said on a Saturday night watching Sky, on many occassions, ‘We’re not watching this again, or , havent we seen this already’ . Her untrained eye thinks it’s the same week after week.

 

Makes you think………….

[oldace]

Note!!! I was fortunate to marry a sport minded wife who joins me in watching many varied sports. But she has said on a Saturday night watching Sky, on many occassions, ‘We’re not watching this again, or , havent we seen this already’ . Her untrained eye thinks it’s the same week after week.

 

Makes you think………….

 

I presume then she says the same about Formula 1 or Moto GP or the tennis at Wimbledon or virtually any event that is part of a series. And as for the boat race, well that one will really confuse her.

Edited March 6, 2012 by oldace

[g13webb]

I presume then she says the same about Formula 1 or Moto GP or the tennis at Wimbledon or virtually any event that is part of a series.

 

No not all, She likes all them . The only thing she draws a line about is watching Man Utd. she can't stick them.

 

No seriously, Its the saturday night thing. She feels to watch sport on a sat night then it should be special. and not every SGP is that good.

 

 

 

Note!! You added the boat race later... She wouldn't watch that,.... Not keen on the water.....

Edited March 6, 2012 by GRW123

[stratton]

I assumed you were referring to Lee of 1977 vintage, Collins of 1973 etc, i.e when they made their debuts. Of course they went on to be greats in much the same way as the three I mentioned may well do in the future.

Out of six world finals Lee had chances of winning in 77,79,80,83 in my opinion he disliked Wembley.P.C maybe in 75,77(unlucky) as well to add to his 76 title.Ward for me has a great chance for me is the best young rider ive seen since Lee and Carter,high praise because there has been many along the years.The other two in my opinion that you named have alot to do but who knows.

[waiheke1]

Becker as a unseeded raw 18 year old winning Wimbledon and Joe Johnson a 500/1 shot winning at the crucible there will never ever be that possibility happening in speedway again.

Sidney - can you tell me in what year an 18 year old won the speedway world final, as I must have missed it. Or even a 500-1 long shot did?

The examples given by endless people on here are there to see, Lee, Moore, Louis( a different age scale and exsperience looking back what a achievement for Tiger) Collins.

 

So to repeat the question... which of Lee, Louis, Moore or Collins won the world title as an 18 year old?

 

 

Out of six world finals Lee had chances of winning in 77,79,80,83 in my opinion he disliked Wembley.P.C maybe in 75,77(unlucky) as well to add to his 76 title.Ward for me has a great chance for me is the best young rider ive seen since Lee and Carter,high praise because there has been many along the years.The other two in my opinion that you named have alot to do but who knows.

Of course they have a lot to do - they are only teenagers, with their whole career ahead. Sydney - I can guarantee you that some of today's young riders will go on to be world champion, and even some that you haven't yet heard of yet will one day be regarded as starts of the calibre of Lee, Collins etc.

[g13webb]

So to repeat the question... which of Lee, Louis, Moore or Collins won the world title as an 18 year old?

 

 

Although non of those actually won the title as an 18 yr old, Michael Lee created the opportunity to win it as a 17 yr old.

 

It not the fact that he won or didn't win, but the opportunity was there to achieve it. That wouldn't happen today unles you were given a wildcard or invitation, and then only if your face fits.......

[oldace]

Although non of those actually won the title as an 18 yr old, Michael Lee created the opportunity to win it as a 17 yr old. It not the fact that he won or didn't win, but the opportunity was there to achieve it. That wouldn't happen today unles you were given a wildcard or invitation, and then only if your face fits.......

In 1977 Mike Lee was British Champion and at the top of his game. Had the GP in its current guise been around in 1977 it is 100% certain Mike Lee, if he had failed to qualify, would have been offered a place in the series, based on his 1976 exploits, similar to Ward this year. So would Peter Collins in 1974. The examples given would all have had the same opportunity now as they did in their day Edited March 6, 2012 by oldace

[g13webb]

In 1977 Mike Lee was British Champion and at the top of his game. Had the GP in its current guise been around in 1977 it is 100% certain Mike Lee, if he had failed to qualify, would have been offered a place in the series, based on his 1976 exploits, similar to Ward this year. So would Peter Collins in 1974. The examples given would all have had the same opportunity now as they did in their day

 

I hear what you say, but Lee wouldn't have been offered a place in the 1977 series from his performances in 1976. 1976 was his first year in senior racing, sure he was good but his average of only 7point something wouldn't have been enough to warrent an invitation.

 

Obviously I don't agree with these wild card and invitations , it opens the door for bias opinions, I prefer if everything and everyone are treated in the same fair manner.

 

In 1977 Mike Lee was British Champion and at the top of his game. Had the GP in its current guise been around in 1977 it is 100% certain Mike Lee, if he had failed to qualify, would have been offered a place in the series, based on his 1976 exploits, similar to Ward this year. So would Peter Collins in 1974. The examples given would all have had the same opportunity now as they did in their day

 

Thats the part that I'm totally against. No one should be given a wild card entry after they have failed to qualify in the normal way. All riders should earn the right to complete.

Edited March 6, 2012 by GRW123

[stratton]

In 1977 Mike Lee was British Champion and at the top of his game. Had the GP in its current guise been around in 1977 it is 100% certain Mike Lee, if he had failed to qualify, would have been offered a place in the series, based on his 1976 exploits, similar to Ward this year. So would Peter Collins in 1974. The examples given would all have had the same opportunity now as they did in their day

1977, you make out he was at his peak his standard generally was very high.if anything on given nights in 1983 at Poole he was near on unbeatable.The point is would he Lee have got a chance in 1975/ 76(reached B.final as reserve) those years he gained valuble exsperience.For me Janowski is a ex) has showed he has talent and maybe dosent like Ward want to go in it.For me i would like to see him in all 11 rounds, i am not saying he is good anough but would be nice for him to test himself.Those examples you gave are right but many other young up and coming riders would not of got the chance alot i would say.

[WIE-JA]

1977, you make out he was at his peak his standard generally was very high.if anything on given nights in 1983 at Poole he was near on unbeatable.The point is would he Lee have got a chance in 1975/ 76(reached B.final as reserve) those years he gained valuble exsperience.For me Janowski is a ex) has showed he has talent and maybe dosent like Ward want to go in it.For me i would like to see him in all 11 rounds, i am not saying he is good anough but would be nice for him to test himself.Those examples you gave are right but many other young up and coming riders would not of got the chance alot i would say.

 

So if as you say Janowski isn't good enough, who would you take out of this years series to fit him in?

[stratton]

So if as you say Janowski isn't good enough, who would you take out of this years series to fit him in?

Thats not really the point because outside the top 8 and i am not saying i even like that what riders SHOULD be guaranteed a spot.Andersen and Lindback have had chances if anything it would be Llung.Maybe Janowski/ Hancock didnt want him to have a entry who knows?

[WIE-JA]

Thats not really the point because outside the top 8 and i am not saying i even like that what riders SHOULD be guaranteed a spot.Andersen and Lindback have had chances if anything it would be Llung.Maybe Janowski/ Hancock didnt want him to have a entry who knows?

 

 

I thought Ljung and Lindback qualified?

[stratton]

I thought Ljung and Lindback qualified?

Ljung did he come in because of PEPE?

[oldace]

I suppose it depends on your perception of the world championship. If you consider the world championship is about finding the best rider in the world over an entire season then the current system pretty much does the trick.

 

If you simply want variety and an ever changing field of riders, no matter what standard they are and the possibility of an undeserving world champion then it fails

[stratton]

I suppose it depends on your perception of the world championship. If you consider the world championship is about finding the best rider in the world over an entire season then the current system pretty much does the trick.

 

If you simply want variety and an ever changing field of riders, no matter what standard they are and the possibility of an undeserving world champion then it fails

Did we have ONE undeserving in 1973? thats not to bad is it since the birth of speedway.

[oldace]

Did we have ONE undeserving in 1973? thats not to bad is it since the birth of speedway.

 

Depends on how you interpret "underserving" Was Muller a deserved winner in 83? certainly he was the best rider on the day, no luck involved and he would have won that meeting if it had been re staged the next day, and the day after that, it would have taken a mechanical failure to stop Muller at Norden. He was of course one of the worlds top longtrackers and holding a speedway final on a mini longtrack in his own back garden gifted him the title.