Mildenhall 2012

[2ndbendpostie]

So just so I have got this right you believe any rider from any country should be able to ride in the National League to fulfil your Sunday afternoon entertainment. You are quite happy for our British riders to be left on the sidelines and you would like this to be agreed at the AGM!

 

100% correct Sir, It would save all these silly arguments as to is and who is'nt eligible. I work with people from different countries, I have played sport with people from different countries, so why cant speedway riders ?

[aljack]

 

Lets face it what the fans want on a Sunday afternoon at West Row is be entertained by exciting young riders and whether or not all are British is immaterial. Its called value for money and without it many will stay away, so who cares if the occasional rider comes from Timbucktoo. Theres been a great deal of jealousy surrounding young Cameron Heeps and I reckon given the chance theres not many other teams would not have sought his signature if they had the chance. Anyway is it not good to have healthy competition for the young budding British riders from the few "foreigners"? I think the threesome who have brought back speedway to Mildenhall have done a wonderful job and last season was the best racing seen there for many a year and I for one whoever is signed to add to Halsey,Blackbird and Heeps will get my vote.

[roguetrader]

100% correct Sir, It would save all these silly arguments as to is and who is'nt eligible. I work with people from different countries, I have played sport with people from different countries, so why cant speedway riders ?

 

Well shame on you and all the people that have supported your views. Thankfully your tripe will have no impact whatsoever on next years teams. The National league teams WILL consist of British riders who are working really hard to develop themselves. Perhaps it is time for you to find another Sunday afternoon sport for you to spend your well earned disposable income.

[2ndbendpostie]

Well shame on you and all the people that have supported your views. Thankfully your tripe will have no impact whatsoever on next years teams. The National league teams WILL consist of British riders who are working really hard to develop themselves. Perhaps it is time for you to find another Sunday afternoon sport for you to spend your well earned disposable income.

 

Now eithier you are a promotor or you have very good contacts or you are full of the brown stuff that comes out of male cows. But we will wait until the NL AGM at which such decisions are made before we know that, but thanks for disclosing that, I am sure many will be well pleased with you for that. As for trying to push people away from speedway at a time when it needs all the supporters it can, doesnt actually show you in a very good light.

 

By the way do you happen to know if table tennis allow foreigners play in its english league ??

[roguetrader]

Now eithier you are a promotor or you have very good contacts or you are full of the brown stuff that comes out of male cows. But we will wait until the NL AGM at which such decisions are made before we know that, but thanks for disclosing that, I am sure many will be well pleased with you for that. As for trying to push people away from speedway at a time when it needs all the supporters it can, doesnt actually show you in a very good light.

 

By the way do you happen to know if table tennis allow foreigners play in its english league ??

 

 

Are you for real! Foreign riders cannot ride in a amateur/semi professional league. Please wake up. You can please yourself what you do with your disposable imcome. Im sure Mildenhalls British riders would be pleased to hear your views!

Edited December 30, 2011 by roguetrader

[TMW]

This Heeps argument does seem to have overshadowed the staggering progress a Brit has made at Mildenhall this season, one Lewis Blackbird, which is sad. As for the exciting riders it seems to me that you are happy for exciting riders just so long as they ride for Mildenhall cos if they belong to the visiting team they get........... woe be tied

[2ndbendpostie]

Now eithier you are a promotor or you have very good contacts or you are full of the brown stuff that comes out of male cows. But we will wait until the NL AGM at which such decisions are made before we know that, but thanks for disclosing that, I am sure many will be well pleased with you for that. As for trying to push people away from speedway at a time when it needs all the supporters it can, doesnt actually show you in a very good light.

 

By the way do you happen to know if table tennis allow foreigners play in its english league ??

 

 

Are you for real! Foreign riders cannot ride in a amateur/semi professional league. Please wake up. You can please yourself what you do with your disposable imcome. Im sure Mildenhalls British riders would be pleased to hear your views!

 

Right where were we, sorry for the delay in answering your post but I was watching the darts, and do you know an Aussie just beat a Brit ! shouldnt be allowed to compete over here should they !!!!

 

I recall us having this argument at the start of last season (remember when you couldnt say anything good about Mildenhall ?) as I said then you can have a team of 7 Brits if thats what you want, I'm happy to have 7 riders from planet zogg as long as they are exciting or just as happy to have 6 Brits and 1 Aussie as per last season. Now this fascination you have with me not attending speedway, I reckon between myself and my wife attending Mildenhall we spend around £500.00 a season, entry, raffle, programme, food drinks, track shop etc, so for a speedway man like yourself it seems very selfish of you to want the promotion to lose that sort of money.

 

As for the 6 Brits at Mildenhall I cannott obviously comment for them, but one is in Australia staying with Cameron Heeps at present, it seems the Aussies dont mind the Brits going over and racing there, certainly all riders spoke very highly of Cameron when interviewed during meetings last season, so I am guessing they would be more than happy to see him doubling up next season.

 

Anyway darts is back on, this time between two Brits, so no nasty Johnny Foreigner to upset the applecart this time !

[PhilK]

The problem is Phil is that if we forget about it and move on we brush aside the obvious corruption of the BSPA.

 

While I really don't think anything will change (as Nikko said, turkeys don't vote for Xmas) I equally do not believe that as supporters we should merely accept the situation as it is.

 

I am sure that many of us find certain parts of the legislation that applies to teams unacceptable, but that is nothing compared to those rules being applied to one but not the other for the sake of an individual promoters selfish wishes.

 

 

 

We know each other well and you know I respect your views, but ... this debate has been regularly raising its head since July this year on virtually every Mildenhall thread.

 

The fact is you won't get the answer you are seeking, certainly not on this site, and as far as I can see all it does is bring out the same divided opinions. Those that are happy to see Cameron ride in the NL, those that are not and a few 'mischief' makers! We are just going round in circles it seems to me, hence my comment on Nikkos post.

 

Of course you are free to keep asking, but I don't really see the point, sorry mate!

Edited December 30, 2011 by PhilK

[MrMungo]

The fact is you won't get the answer you are seeking, certainly not on this site, and as far as I can see all it does is bring out the same divided opinions. Those that are happy to see Cameron ride in the NL, those that are not and a few 'mischief' makers! We are just going round in circles it seems to me, hence my comment on Nikkos post.

Isn't that the point of Speedway?

[norwichkev]

Isn't that the point of Speedway?

LOL, hopefully going anti clockwise at the time. Maybe see more of you at West Row this year?

 

Happy New Year to all, whether we agree or not - roll on tapes up.

 

Cheers

 

Kev

Edited December 31, 2011 by norwichkev

[Halifaxtiger]

We know each other well and you know I respect your views, but ... this debate has been regularly raising its head since July this year on virtually every Mildenhall thread.

 

The fact is you won't get the answer you are seeking, certainly not on this site, and as far as I can see all it does is bring out the same divided opinions. Those that are happy to see Cameron ride in the NL, those that are not and a few 'mischief' makers! We are just going round in circles it seems to me, hence my comment on Nikkos post.

 

Of course you are free to keep asking, but I don't really see the point, sorry mate!

 

In truth, I am sure that I will not get an answer, either, simply because nobody can give me one (lets face it, if they are not going to tell Dale Allitt, Jack Lee or Malcolm Vasey, they aren't going to tell me) . Having said that, its far from me alone that wants a response.

 

I don't think the opinions are divided at all on the issue of rules being broken to suit the selfish needs of individual promoters, backhander dealings and the corrupt 'you scratch my back I'll scratch yours' culture that lies at the heart of our sport (because that's the real point here, Heeps is just an example of it). I'd be very surprised indeed if anyone was actually in favour of that, however much it might suit their team in the short term.

 

I was very happy to see Heeps ride in the NL in a way, because he was an absolute breath of fresh air, a terrific rider and a drawcard for paying spectators. But if that is at the cost of allowing someone who is ineligible to compete in that league to do so, I am anything but happy about it.

 

The thing is if we move on, brush it aside, ignore it as part and parcel of speedway, we effectively condone it.

 

So yes, I am pi**ing in the wind but I think this point is so important that that is better than just letting it go.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Halifaxtiger

[Jayne]

My understanding is that Cameron qualifies to ride in the NL due to his Mother either being British or holding a British passport (can't remember which.) I think the confusion arises as the Borders Agency don't recognise patriality rights until you are 17. I dont know all the ins and outs but I'm pretty certain that the delay in allowing him to ride was due to the 'red tape' in the production of the necessary paperwork.

[berniev123]

My understanding is that Cameron qualifies to ride in the NL due to his Mother either being British or holding a British passport (can't remember which.) I think the confusion arises as the Borders Agency don't recognise patriality rights until you are 17. I dont know all the ins and outs but I'm pretty certain that the delay in allowing him to ride was due to the 'red tape' in the production of the necessary paperwork.

 

Thank you Jayne for a straight answer to something that could have been put to bed ages ago amongst fans of NL Speedway.

Good luck in 2012 with the Hitmen as you deserve success with the sterling work you do up there

[Halifaxtiger]

My understanding is that Cameron qualifies to ride in the NL due to his Mother either being British or holding a British passport (can't remember which.) I think the confusion arises as the Borders Agency don't recognise patriality rights until you are 17. I dont know all the ins and outs but I'm pretty certain that the delay in allowing him to ride was due to the 'red tape' in the production of the necessary paperwork.

 

If anything, Jayne, that makes the situation even more bizarre. NL regulations are clear: a rider must either be a British passport holder or have patriality.

 

If Heeps was a British passport holder, why was he initially refused permission to ride and why did Mildenhall have to take the matter to the ACU ?

 

UK Border agency rules state that you have to be 17 to have patriality so he doesn't have that either, at least by the legal definition.

 

If the BSPA accept that only a British parent is necessary, just how much 'paper work' and 'red tape' is needed to show that that is the case ? Wouldn't a birth certificate be enough ?

 

If the BSPA do have a different definition of patriality, I have no doubt this is the first time anyone has heard of it. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Nick Morris refused permission to ride in the NL in 2011 because he was under 17, despite the fact that one of his parents is British ?

 

You yourself said on the pages of this forum that you have to be 17 to have patriality, and every other opinion I sought on the subject agreed. It was a case, initially, that 'by all accounts' he wasn't eligible. When he was, no-one knew how and no explanation was given at all.. If it was as simple as you make out, why weren't they told ?

 

It might be the case that it is a coincidence that Heeps clearance came through at precisely the same point that James Brundle was illegally refused permission to double up, that the definition of patriality has never been the precise legal one and that the BSPA have acted with complete integrity in this matter.

 

As anyone who knows me will tell you I am rarely cynical and am correspondingly stupidly naive, but I don't believe any of that for a single second.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Halifaxtiger

[ZODIAK]

Were there not any official protests from others about the lads inclusion? Indeed, where are the protests from other promotions in the PL that Heeps is included at Ipswich on a 3.00 average? I'm assuming then that he isn't eligible for that either?

 

Where are the protests?? You can bet your bottom dollar that if this situation arose in the Elite league, if his average or eligibility are wrong it would be challenged.

[Jayne]

If anything, Jayne, that makes the situation even more bizarre. NL regulations are clear: a rider must either be a British passport holder or have patriality.

 

If Heeps was a British passport holder, why was he initially refused permission to ride and why did Mildenhall have to take the matter to the ACU ?

 

UK Border agency rules state that you have to be 17 to have patriality so he doesn't have that either, at least by the legal definition.

 

If the BSPA accept that only a British parent is necessary, just how much 'paper work' and 'red tape' is needed to show that that is the case ? Wouldn't a birth certificate be enough ?

 

If the BSPA do have a different definition of patriality, I have no doubt this is the first time anyone has heard of it. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Nick Morris refused permission to ride in the NL in 2011 because he was under 17, despite the fact that one of his parents is British ?

 

You yourself said on the pages of this forum that you have to be 17 to have patriality, and every other opinion I sought on the subject agreed. It was a case, initially, that 'by all accounts' he wasn't eligible. When he was, no-one knew how and no explanation was given at all.. If it was as simple as you make out, why weren't they told ?

 

It might be the case that it is a coincidence that Heeps clearance came through at precisely the same point that James Brundle was illegally refused permission to double up, that the definition of patriality has never been the precise legal one and that the BSPA have acted with complete integrity in this matter.

 

As anyone who knows me will tell you I am rarely cynical and am correspondingly stupidly naive, but I don't believe any of that for a single second.

 

I think that some common sense has to prevail regarding patriality in the legal sense and in respect of eligibility for riding in the NL with regards to those riders under 17. After all it is the league that makes the rules regarding elibility not the government otherwise all EU riders would be permitted to race if you applied the letter of the law. As I said I am not privy to all in the ins and outs of the situation but I believe that the delay was due to the Heeps family having to firstly apply for the correct documents and then produce them to the BSPA. I believe Cameron was eligible for a British passport but did not actually have one and the delay in him being cleared to ride occurred whilst he was applying for it. I have only tried to answer the question but if you want the finer details then you need to contact either the BSPA office or the Mildenhall promotion.

 

As for Nick Morris I am not aware of him being refused permission to race in the NL in 2011, as you say his father is English and Nick holds a current British passport which was produced when he rode for Buxton in 2010.

 

Were there not any official protests from others about the lads inclusion? Indeed, where are the protests from other promotions in the PL that Heeps is included at Ipswich on a 3.00 average? I'm assuming then that he isn't eligible for that either?

 

Where are the protests?? You can bet your bottom dollar that if this situation arose in the Elite league, if his average or eligibility are wrong it would be challenged.

 

 

There were plenty of questions from other clubs, myself included but it was dealt with and authorised by the BSPA after a lot of work and correspondence between the relevant parties.

[ZODIAK]

But i still don't understand it as things have now moved on to the PL. The other PL promoters must be aware if Cameron Heeps is perfectly eligible to ride in the PL on lets be honest, a ridiculous bargain average of 3.00. If he wasn't, any PL promoter worth his salt would protest and challenge his inclusion.

 

As far as i'm aware, none have been forthcoming. The only conclusion i can take from that is that he must be perfectly eligible and the others are happy with his inclusion.

[Halifaxtiger]

I think that some common sense has to prevail regarding patriality in the legal sense and in respect of eligibility for riding in the NL with regards to those riders under 17. After all it is the league that makes the rules regarding elibility not the government otherwise all EU riders would be permitted to race if you applied the letter of the law. As I said I am not privy to all in the ins and outs of the situation but I believe that the delay was due to the Heeps family having to firstly apply for the correct documents and then produce them to the BSPA. I believe Cameron was eligible for a British passport but did not actually have one and the delay in him being cleared to ride occurred whilst he was applying for it. I have only tried to answer the question but if you want the finer details then you need to contact either the BSPA office or the Mildenhall promotion.

 

The thing is you clearly believed that the legal definition of patriality applied (as we all did) because you said so in an earlier post.

 

I don't understand how the goalposts were shifted half way through and why, if patriality is subject to a BSPA definition, he couldn't simply have produced his mother's birth certificate because that would have been enough. I also don't understand how, if he was clearly eligible for a British passport, permission to ride at the outset was refused outright - to the extent that Mildenhall took the matter to the ACU.

 

Word I got (including a contribution from Jack) was that he was eligible to ride, end of. Questions were indeed asked but that was it - no explanation, no details, no clarification, nothing.

 

I very much appreciate your contribution, Jayne (as always), but we both know that there is absolutely no chance of either Mildenhall or the BSPA (particularly the latter) responding if this was indeed bent, and I believe I have made a fair case for that. After all, the BSPA don't exactly have a reputation for integrity, do they ?

 

But i still don't understand it as things have now moved on to the PL. The other PL promoters must be aware if Cameron Heeps is perfectly eligible to ride in the PL on lets be honest, a ridiculous bargain average of 3.00. If he wasn't, any PL promoter worth his salt would protest and challenge his inclusion.

 

As far as i'm aware, none have been forthcoming. The only conclusion i can take from that is that he must be perfectly eligible and the others are happy with his inclusion.

 

The problem with this, as Phil K pointed out to me so correctly once, is that they are all up to their eyeballs in it. Its odds on that this favour (the actual fault was not with Mildenhall, but, as I understand it, with a PL club), if exposed, goes back in a long chain of favours and backhander dealings with virtually every club involved. You only have to look at what happened to Avtar Sandhu to see what happens if you break ranks and its why the BSPA are absolutely dead against any form of independent scrutiny.

 

I was genuinely shocked when informed by a former riders mechanic of a similar rule breaking exercise that took place in 2008 when a current promoter called in a favour to have him illegally reinstated in a team.

 

The thing is the silence regarding his eligibility is positively thunderous. You would have thought that just one promotion might have said something publicly, wouldn't you ?

 

The other thing you have to remember is that Mildenhall were deprived of their number one - James Brundle - after they had been initially told that he was OK to double up and, in fact, he could do precisely that based upon his average at the time (it has to be remembered Heeps replaced Laurence, not Brundle).

 

I would say that any club illegally forced to lose its top man half way through the season would go berserk, yet Mildenhall's silence was equally thunderous.

 

Why ?

Edited January 1, 2012 by Halifaxtiger

[norwichkev]

 

Where are the protests?? You can bet your bottom dollar that if this situation arose in the Elite league, if his average or eligibility are wrong it would be challenged.

This goes slightly off thread but have to disagree with you there, looking through the EL threads there seems to be far worse issues on a regular basis there.

 

Part of the problem in my view is that the moment rules are in place then promoters are finding ways around them ( same promoters who presumably are pushing for implementation in the first place ) - bringing riders in for 1 meeting to manipulate averages etc.

 

Agree with Halifax there is a nasty smell, but realistically the current set up looks unlikely to change - short term best we all get on with it, I suspect it will only be the likes of Sky that can force any major changes.

 

Kev

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

A couple of things. One, Heeps is an Aussie..: and for a long time Speedway's lower divisions have allowed riders from the 'Commonwealth' to compete as if British nationals. In that sense I dispute entirely the notion that Cameron was 'foreign'

 

And secondly, there have been a very large number of riders who have competed in the CL/NL under such terms. Andrew Bargh and young Alex Cunningham are two Kiwis as examples. Byron Bekker a South African who I'm not sure had the patriality that others had..? There was even an Aussie from a Latvian background called Karlis Ezagalis (excuse the likely spelling error!).

So why this concentration on rules being broken over Heeps..? I can't personally see that any were...

 

Also I'm sure young English riders benefit from riding against and/or with young Aussie talent like Heeps..