Speedway Gp In Tatters !

[BigFatDave]

Speedway is first and foremost a TEAM sport.

Your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but personally I, like many others, prefer Individual meetings such as the GP's, ELRC, Aussie Championships etc.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Speedway is first and foremost a TEAM sport. Without the leagues there would be no Speedway. This is unlike any other motor sport so to compare it to Motocross, MotoGP, Superbikes or any form of motor racing is wrong. The riders earn their living racing in the leagues, they are not paid by Honda, Kawasaki, Ferrari or whoever, to race once a fortnight and spend the rest of the time developing the car or bike for the manufacturer, if they don’t race they don’t get paid. So the leagues must come first. The FIM and some supporters think that Speedway could be run along those lines but it can’t happen. With some riders opting out of the GPs it’s obvious that something is wrong. The GPs have grown to such an extent that they are now impacting the leagues. We have Poland limiting GP riders forcing some to make a choice between a regular pay packet or a chance to be World Champion. My fear is that as the GPs grow only the riders with big sponsors or wealthy parents will be able to compete in them leaving other, possibly more talented, riders to race solely in the leagues, effectively having two separate sports World Championship Speedway and League Speedway. If this happens how, will the GP riders stay race fit? Most riders say you need to race regularly to stay sharp, racing once a fortnight isn’t the answer. Also how will the league riders break into the World Championship if they think it’s going to cost too much and they can’t recoup their outlay by racing in the league? You will have riders racing two or three times a week in the leagues and riders riding once a fortnight in the GPs over the course of a season or two the better riders would surely be the league riders and that would surely damage the status of the World Championship.

 

I have been a Speedway follower for forty eight years and have to say I much preferred the old one off system to decide the world champion, 40,000 people at Cardiff cannot compare to 90,000 at Wembley and knowing the Champion will be crowned that night and not a couple of months down the line, but am realistic enough to realise those days are gone and the GPs are here to stay. When they were first introduced there were six GPs a year, no riders pulled out or complained about the cost and they had minimal effect on the leagues why can’t we go back to that?

 

An excellent posting which sums it all up IMHO.

 

As a spectator my personal opinion is that an early year GP (which Cardiff has always been) with a winner really not mattering that much, cannot possibly compare as a spectacle with a World Final where (even if someone gates five times to win as Phillip points out was the case in '74...: though a GP winner can also gate every race too!! ), where the champion of the world is decided that night!

 

But okay, some say it's better for 'fairness' to have 'a best of' series.. Well okay, let's embrace that 'fairness' theme... My bug bear is that the way the GP system has evolved massively favours the status quo - so that once in it, all one needs to do is avoid finishing lower than 9th. out of 15 (and even then you'd likely get a 'reprieve') to stay in it.. I've yet to hear ANY argument for that patently unfair system.. Until this is dealt with, it is disingenious for folk to argue that the GP is a fairer way of deciding the World title...

 

Surely there can be a GP series of rounds which starts off with a fair system of qualifiers..? And PLEASE don't say there is becasuse there is NOT an even playing field between those in and those trying to get in...

[Trees]

Your opinion, and you're entitled to it, but personally I, like many others, prefer Individual meetings such as the GP's, ELRC, Aussie Championships etc.

Is this because you don't have a local team to support, if you felt an affiliation with a team then you'd probably feel different ......

[waiheke1]

 

But okay, some say it's better for 'fairness' to have 'a best of' series.. Well okay, let's embrace that 'fairness' theme... My bug bear is that the way the GP system has evolved massively favours the status quo - so that once in it, all one needs to do is avoid finishing lower than 9th. out of 15 (and even then you'd likely get a 'reprieve') to stay in it.. I've yet to hear ANY argument for that patently unfair system.. Until this is dealt with, it is disingenious for folk to argue that the GP is a fairer way of deciding the World title...

 

Surely there can be a GP series of rounds which starts off with a fair system of qualifiers..? And PLEASE don't say there is becasuse there is NOT an even playing field between those in and those trying to get in...

 

Parloes, plenty of people have provided arguments for the current system, you just seem to ignore them.

 

Finishing in the top 9 out of the worlds best riders is arguably a greater achievment, than finishing in the top 3 of "the rest." If you don't agree with this - who out of the riders who have "re-qualified" via this method for the 2012 GP would you not consider to be one of the top 15 riders in the world?

 

In addition the wildcard system ensures that a) you can have representation from all the worlds main countries (including Britain!) and that the best or most promising of the riders who haven't qualified can still appear in the series.

In the last 3 seasons, 2 wildcards (Emil and Jonsson) have made the rostrum, none of the "qualifiers" have come close.

 

Noone is claiming the current system is perfect - I'd suggest holding the old school GP challenge, and reducing WC to two would be a better option Or alternatively, as someone suggested above, the qualifies should have a series of meeting to decide who took the three available slots (I don't think you could have too many meetings, or it would impact too much on the leagues, but I'm sure a decent system could be put in place)

 

edit: i have no idea why the smiley face with sunglasses has appeared mid sentence above

Edited November 2, 2011 by waihekeaces1

[waiheke1]

Cant agree with that,i think the gps have alot of hard work ahead because i dont things look that rosy.The thing that annoys me is that it seems the gps are the be all and end all.That has affected the league structure bigtime i no stupid rules ect hasnt helped.As long as the gps are hear i never really see the leagues regrouping and prospering again.i was looking back on dvd and Dave lanning said michael lee winning the title in 1980 could be worth up to 100 000 to him this is in 1980.So if the series is in great shape where does the money go ive no idea.

 

Sidney, to clairfy the 100k wouldn't have been prize money, it would have been extra earnings from sponsorship, and being able to demand extra appearance fees, getting extra bookings for meetings on the continent etc. I've a book at home somewhere (1980 the Grand Slam or something similar), in which Ian Thomas bemoans the FIM pay rates at that time. And Mike Lee in 81 expresses that he was disillusioned with how there was less money there for a WC than he had expected.

Addtiionally - I'd be pretty confident that today's World Champions do ok out of the sport, but again this is via increased earnings from other sources, not from picking up a huge kitty of proze money.

 

End of the day, we need to realise also that speedway is not Formula 1, never will be, and hence the financial rewards will be comparitively slim.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Parloes, plenty of people have provided arguments for the current system, you just seem to ignore them.

 

Finishing in the top 9 out of the worlds best riders is arguably a greater achievment, than finishing in the top 3 of "the rest." If you don't agree with this - who out of the riders who have "re-qualified" via this method for the 2012 GP would you not consider to be one of the top 15 riders in the world?

 

In addition the wildcard system ensures that a) you can have representation from all the worlds main countries (including Britain!) and that the best or most promising of the riders who haven't qualified can still appear in the series.

In the last 3 seasons, 2 wildcards (Emil and Jonsson) have made the rostrum, none of the "qualifiers" have come close.

 

Noone is claiming the current system is perfect - I'd suggest holding the old school GP challenge, and reducing WC to two would be a better option Or alternatively, as someone suggested above, the qualifies should have a series of meeting to decide who took the three available slots (I don't think you could have too many meetings, or it would impact too much on the leagues, but I'm sure a decent system could be put in place)

 

edit: i have no idea why the smiley face with sunglasses has appeared mid sentence above

 

I liked the sunglasses!!!

 

Sure people have argued in defence of the system but it IS one which sustains the status quo. Hugely ironically, the two riders who way, way back in '94 finished in the top eight in the last WF and so qualified for the then new-fangled GPs (Gollob and Hancock) have been the LAST two WCs! Which is a magnificent achievement by them both but does surely tell something of a story too..

 

NO-ONE has ever countered my main point which is that it is sooooo much more difficult now for people seeking to excel as quickly as they can in our sport to get their chance.

The two examples I give are John Louis and Michael Lee.

Tiger Louis turned to Speedway from 'Scrambling' (sic) aged 29 years ( ) in 1970. In the WF in 1972 he finished FOURTH!

Michael Lee made his debut for Boston aged 16 in 1975. In 1977 in his first WF he finished FOURTH!

Now you tell me if such achievements are possible now..? They 100% clearly are NOT.

In the business world they call what we have now, the 'glass ceiling'..

 

And as none (or few..) of us debating this are riders, let alone riders aspiring to be the best riders in the world, it's difficult for us to understand what effect this glass ceiling might have on a competitor's psyche.. I argue it's a powerful force to disillusion and demotivate; and the general trend (again one difficult to say isn't happening..) of the older, experienced capmaigners ruling the roost and indeed seemingly finding it easier to win than previously suggests this is the case..

[waiheke1]

I liked the sunglasses!!!

 

Sure people have argued in defence of the system but it IS one which sustains the status quo. Hugely ironically, the two riders who way, way back in '94 finished in the top eight in the last WF and so qualified for the then new-fangled GPs (Gollob and Hancock) have been the LAST two WCs! Which is a magnificent achievement by them both but does surely tell something of a story too..

 

NO-ONE has ever countered my main point which is that it is sooooo much more difficult now for people seeking to excel as quickly as they can in our sport to get their chance.

The two examples I give are John Louis and Michael Lee.

Tiger Louis turned to Speedway from 'Scrambling' (sic) aged 29 years ( ) in 1970. In the WF in 1972 he finished FOURTH!

Michael Lee made his debut for Boston aged 16 in 1975. In 1977 in his first WF he finished FOURTH!

Now you tell me if such achievements are possible now..? They 100% clearly are NOT.

In the business world they call what we have now, the 'glass ceiling'..

 

And as none (or few..) of us debating this are riders, let alone riders aspiring to be the best riders in the world, it's difficult for us to understand what effect this glass ceiling might have on a competitor's psyche.. I argue it's a powerful force to disillusion and demotivate; and the general trend (again one difficult to say isn't happening..) of the older, experienced capmaigners ruling the roost and indeed seemingly finding it easier to win than previously suggests this is the case..

 

And in Emil's first GP season he finished 3rd, one place better than Mike Lee managed. Hardly a glass ceiling!?!

 

It would be harder for a rider like John Louis now because I would argue the standard of the top riders is higher. Everything is more professtional, from bikes to diet etc. Its the same in any professional sport, that you just don't get people taking them up at the age f 30 and becoming an instant potential world champion.

 

I'd suggest top riders can also stay around longer due to factors such as keeping in shape better (better knowledge of sports science etc) safer racing conditions and more confrotable transportation, rather than it being due to the GP system

[BigFatDave]

Is this because you don't have a local team to support, if you felt an affiliation with a team then you'd probably feel different ......

One of the many joys of Individual meetings is that you don't know the winner until the ultimate event, plus of course you've usually had at least twenty races by then: compare that with the average league meeting - done & dusted well before the 15th heat. Which do YOU feel offers the more value, Trees?

Of course I still support my ol' home town team the Mighty WASPS, so it's not as if I'm totally bereft.

[Mr Snackette]

Speedway is first and foremost a TEAM sport. Without the leagues there would be no Speedway........

 

On a personal level, I much prefer a team, rather than an individual meeting. However to suggest that the sport is first and foremost a team sport is an over simplification. 

 

I would suggest that if you asked the average speedway fan who were the first three speedway world champions, there would be a good number who could rattle off the names of Lionel Van Praag, Jack Milne, and Bluey Wilkinson. Ask the same fans who won the League in 1936, 1937, 1938....and I would suggest that there would be very few who could come up with the answer (well I certainly couldn't!!!). 

 

In fact I could tell you who won the league in 1975, 1976, 1984, and 1998......Dag Lovaas (RR) won it in 1977....and Smederna won the Swedish League in 1973. Apart from that I would be struggling, and without looking it up, I couldn't tell you.

 

Yet for the same years I could name you the individual world champions without any difficulty, and I would suggest there would be many who could also do the same. 

 

So clearly the Individual World Champion has far greater prestige than any league title winner. However it could also be fair to say that for the average speedway rider, the World Championships are for show, league speedway is for dough!!!

 

So it may be that it is the financial model that needs to change more than anything else. The financial rewards for competing in the world championships should be such that no rider could afford to give it a miss. 

Edited November 3, 2011 by Mr Snackette

[stratton]

And in Emil's first GP season he finished 3rd, one place better than Mike Lee managed. Hardly a glass ceiling!?!

 

It would be harder for a rider like John Louis now because I would argue the standard of the top riders is higher. Everything is more professtional, from bikes to diet etc. Its the same in any professional sport, that you just don't get people taking them up at the age f 30 and becoming an instant potential world champion.

 

I'd suggest top riders can also stay around longer due to factors such as keeping in shape better (better knowledge of sports science etc) safer racing conditions and more confrotable transportation, rather than it being due to the GP system

You are having a laugh arnt you the top class riders standard is higher you are joking. In yesterdayyear I could name at least 50 top class riders who would of been good anough to ride in the gp series.now you are scratching around after the 16 in it and thats relying on crump gollob ect not retiring.As for louis when he came on the scene, the leagues were booming gulf british league individual advents he probably rode 120 meetings a year thats how he progressed into a worldy rider.now some riders dont ride for 3 weeks.Dont get me wrong todays top stars are great and they would of been in any era. But overal the level is knowhere near the standard top class as it used to be.

[Dave_minall]

I just picture an old man saying "all you whippersnappers don't know speedway like I did back in the day"

 

No offence but we live in 2011, these are the cards we have been dealt with. Love it or leave it. By leaving your opinion on how the 'old times were better' won't bring anything back. Just cherish your memories and stop trying to impose them on what speedway has become. In my opinion, I wouldn't change it for the world.

[Humphrey Appleby]

By leaving your opinion on how the 'old times were better' won't bring anything back. Just cherish your memories and stop trying to impose them on what speedway has become.

 

Whilst I'd agree we are where we are, speedway is one of the rare things where it was genuinely better at times in the past. The assertion that competition is tougher nowadays is quite honestly nonsense, and whilst the top riders today would undoubtedly have succeeded in yesteryear as well, some of the riders currently in the SGP would probably not even have been heat leader status in the old BL.

 

Alright, so what? Times change and we sometimes have to move on, but when the hype and self-promotion is stripped away, what has the SGP actually done to advance the sport?

[dabbsjoe]

Speedway is first and foremost a TEAM sport.

 

i agree and i like nothing more than watching league meetings, but after being brought up watching speedway in the early 90's until present day.

but do you not think now that the real art of team riding has almost vanished from speedway.

even though riders ride in teams these days they still ride for themselves more than anything

[stratton]

i agree and i like nothing more than watching league meetings, but after being brought up watching speedway in the early 90's until present day.

but do you not think now that the real art of team riding has almost vanished from speedway.

even though riders ride in teams these days they still ride for themselves more than anything

yes the art of team riding was great to watch,i thought it was a joke when they took B.P off the averages.4 paid 8 is the same as 8.i dont say everyone rides for themselves but when i first started going team riding and partnerships were always there.probably one of the best Phil collins and Alan Grahame.

[stratton]

I just picture an old man saying "all you whippersnappers don't know speedway like I did back in the day"

 

No offence but we live in 2011, these are the cards we have been dealt with. Love it or leave it. By leaving your opinion on how the 'old times were better' won't bring anything back. Just cherish your memories and stop trying to impose them on what speedway has become. In my opinion, I wouldn't change it for the world.

I am middle aged and would like to think im not stuck in the in my day category.I still go now,enjoy it but nowhere near as much as i used to.I feel guilty for feeling like this but natural progression and moving forward i havent seen it happen.I go to the abbey, swindon great track [when prepared]but the stadium is a dated stadia now and money wasnt invested when the good times were hear.wouldnt change it for the world?theres loads i would change but it wont happen so its no good worrying about it.

[The Know]

I just picture an old man saying "all you whippersnappers don't know speedway like I did back in the day"

 

No offence but we live in 2011, these are the cards we have been dealt with. Love it or leave it. By leaving your opinion on how the 'old times were better' won't bring anything back. Just cherish your memories and stop trying to impose them on what speedway has become. In my opinion, I wouldn't change it for the world.

 

dam right, to many old gits on hear trying to relive the past. bet they dont drive a ford consol now

i started riding motocross 35 years ago and was far better then. i still ride today but dont go on about the good old days like a broken record.

get real were in 2011 now and things wont go backwards.

[The Know]

Whilst I'd agree we are where we are, speedway is one of the rare things where it was genuinely better at times in the past. The assertion that competition is tougher nowadays is quite honestly nonsense, and whilst the top riders today would undoubtedly have succeeded in yesteryear as well, some of the riders currently in the SGP would probably not even have been heat leader status in the old BL.

 

Alright, so what? Times change and we sometimes have to move on, but when the hype and self-promotion is stripped away, what has the SGP actually done to advance the sport?

 

Boring !!!!

[stratton]

dam right, to many old gits on hear trying to relive the past. bet they dont drive a ford consol now

i started riding motocross 35 years ago and was far better then. i still ride today but dont go on about the good old days like a broken record.

get real were in 2011 now and things wont go backwards.

How long have you been watching speedway 2 minutes ?THE KNOW by the sound of it you KNOW nothing.By the way if things go backwards anymore you wont have speedway to watch.

[Humphrey Appleby]

Boring !!!!

 

A lot of things seem to bore you.

[Tatums Left Nut]

Now that 'gods older brother' has conclusively proved that the Speedway GP series is 'in tatters', surely it's back to one-off finals, when/where ?

Edited November 3, 2011 by Tatums Left Nut