chunky Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 No, it's NOT my opinion... The World Final was NOT a lottery... Look up the word, 'lottery'...!!! Let's assume that it WAS a lottery, and then ask this question : how many individuals have won the BIG prize four, five, or six times? Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waiheke1 Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Yes, riders no longer score maximums now that gate positions are so vital, unlike the good old days when all gates were exactly the same. Does that show you after what you have just said,to win a one off final was a achievement because everyone was on the same playing field at that time.Gates didnt mean you couldnt win a final just meant it was harder to do from the back.Where now gates are very important ie] in the semi,s and Final. Yes, nailed it, that's EXACTLY what he was saying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trees Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 This thread is about the GPs and the old World Final system has been brought into it.Basically the fans,press,sponsors etc prefer the GPs.I don't hear any real demand apart from a few old guys and trees for the return of the one day final.It won't happen The involvement of BSI/IMG in speedway is what I object to. Having said that I do think there are too many GPs, I'd rather see qualifying and a small World Final Series each year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpartialOne Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 how you can say he was on the verge of greatness by 1983 he hadnt won anything had he then? Hence he was on the verge of greatness He would have been the only rider to beat Egon Muller in the World Final but for an engine failure on the last bend of his final ride which would have put him on 12 points and into a run-off for 2nd place with Billy Sanders. In the winter of 1983/4 he was transferred from Birmingham to Oxford for a record fee (£30,000) and of course the rest is history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Hence he was on the verge of greatness He would have been the only rider to beat Egon Muller in the World Final but for an engine failure on the last bend of his final ride which would have put him on 12 points and into a run-off for 2nd place with Billy Sanders. In the winter of 1983/4 he was transferred from Birmingham to Oxford for a record fee (£30,000) and of course the rest is history. 1983 Muller in his last ride had done anough by then anyway, after that yes he did go on to greatness,fair play to him.A glittering career and had longevity with it.When all said and done his career panned out right for him after 1980,81,82,83,looking like he was going to fall short.He showed resolve and thats what i admire him most for impartial one.The point Chunky made do you rate someone on there roll of honour record or do you rate them on what you saw and ability wise a personnel observation i think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpartialOne Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 (edited) 1983 Muller in his last ride had done anough by then anyway My point wasn't about what Muller did or didn't do but a direct response to your claim that Nielsen wasn't on the verge of greatness in 1983. But for that EF he would have been either World No. 2 or 3 that year. Edited December 8, 2011 by ImpartialOne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 My point wasn't about what Muller did or didn't do but a direct response to your claim that Nielsen wasn't on the verge of greatness in 1983. But for that EF he would have been either World No. 2 or 3 that year. If you want to be critical, and as a outsider looking in up until 1986[very lucky indeed Knudsen incident] you wouldnt class him on the verge then would you.A bridesmaid beaten by his great foe Gundersen in 84,85.Come 1986 he hadnt won anything up to that point its after the win in 86 that he shows his greatness.Do you grasp that impartial one up until 86 he wouldnt of been a great until then surely.After the 86 win[lucky]he had got over the mental barrier and went on to achieve resolve and greatness after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Know Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Is this thread not about the gp. page after page of rubbish about riders from years ago. should it not have its own thread. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIE-JA Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 If you want to be critical, and as a outsider looking in up until 1986[very lucky indeed Knudsen incident] you wouldnt class him on the verge then would you.A bridesmaid beaten by his great foe Gundersen in 84,85.Come 1986 he hadnt won anything up to that point its after the win in 86 that he shows his greatness.Do you grasp that impartial one up until 86 he wouldnt of been a great until then surely.After the 86 win[lucky]he had got over the mental barrier and went on to achieve resolve and greatness after that. Hence why he was on the verge of greatness as IO said. We know what he went on to achieve after '86 and before then he was a constant threat in world championships and other major events. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Basically the fans,press,sponsors etc prefer the GPs.I don't hear any real demand apart from a few old guys and trees for the return of the one day final.It won't happen Who are the press these days beyond the Speedway Star, who are hardly impartial in the matter? I don't think the mainstream media could give two hoots one way or the other. With respect to the fans, I suspect you'd need to ask the 40,000 missing from the Cardiff GP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Is this thread not about the gp. page after page of rubbish about riders from years ago. should it not have its own thread. why do you have to be so rude?unreal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Know Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 why do you have to be so rude?unreal. sorry if you feel it rude as not meant to be. should it not be in its own thread as not sgp related. i am not interested in the old stuff now but thats me. bit like i dont have a black and white tele either or a de-mob suit. ya the old days were great but they gone now and wont be back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 sorry if you feel it rude as not meant to be. should it not be in its own thread as not sgp related. i am not interested in the old stuff now but thats me. bit like i dont have a black and white tele either or a de-mob suit. ya the old days were great but they gone now and wont be back. No worries at all,did go off the subject a wee bit sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpartialOne Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 If you want to be critical, and as a outsider looking in up until 1986[very lucky indeed Knudsen incident] you wouldnt class him on the verge then would you.A bridesmaid beaten by his great foe Gundersen in 84,85.Come 1986 he hadnt won anything up to that point its after the win in 86 that he shows his greatness.Do you grasp that impartial one up until 86 he wouldnt of been a great until then surely.After the 86 win[lucky]he had got over the mental barrier and went on to achieve resolve and greatness after that. I grasp it perfectly well. Unfortunately you are failing to grasp the difference between somebody achieving success and being on the verge of success. At the point he hadn't won anything he was on the verge of success, coming desperately close twice. Jason Crump had a similar agonizing experience before finally achieving success and the pressure with every near miss becomes ever increasing. I predicted (as I'm sure many did) that, like Nielsen, once Crump had finally shaken the monkey from his back success would come much easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 I grasp it perfectly well. Unfortunately you are failing to grasp the difference between somebody achieving success and being on the verge of success. At the point he hadn't won anything he was on the verge of success, coming desperately close twice. Jason Crump had a similar agonizing experience before finally achieving success and the pressure with every near miss becomes ever increasing. I predicted (as I'm sure many did) that, like Nielsen, once Crump had finally shaken the monkey from his back success would come much easier. I grasp it perfectly well. Unfortunately you are failing to grasp the difference between somebody achieving success and being on the verge of success. At the point he hadn't won anything he was on the verge of success, coming desperately close twice. Jason Crump had a similar agonizing experience before finally achieving success and the pressure with every near miss becomes ever increasing. I predicted (as I'm sure many did) that, like Nielsen, once Crump had finally shaken the monkey from his back success would come much easier. Success is different to what you said a Great?been here before with Talent and natural? Back to the proper subject i am backing Jason to get a fourth title in 2012. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 HUMPHREY ... you are sounding like a little Englander. Just because the GP and motorcycle racing in general attracts little media interest in the UK doesn't mean it is the same elsewhere. There is huge coverage in Poland, of course, and a significant amount in countries like Denmark, Sweden and elsewhere. Don't understand what you mean by the missing 40,000 fans at Cardiff. A much higher proportion of fans who regularly attend league racing in the UK go to Cardiff than was the case at even Wembley and especially Bradford (Odsal) for World Finals during the 70s and 80s. If the overall weekly speedway attendance in the UK was the same now as it was during the early 1970s in particular I have little doubt that the British GP would be a sell out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 Just because the GP and motorcycle racing in general attracts little media interest in the UK doesn't mean it is the same elsewhere. There is huge coverage in Poland, of course, and a significant amount in countries like Denmark, Sweden and elsewhere. Really? I go to Poland, Denmark and Sweden regularly, and have barely seen any speedway coverage in the mainstream media in those countries. Even in Poland, you largely have to go to speedway cities to even know the sport exists. Don't understand what you mean by the missing 40,000 fans at Cardiff. It's generally acknowledged that Wembley World Finals attracted in the order of 70-80K fans. I appreciate we now live in different times, but equally in an era of satellite television and Millenium Stadiums, do we really think that a World Final wouldn't attract a similar size crowd to the British GP? I don't think I've ever suggested that we should revert to the World Final system now, but the old system was run into the ground because Finals unnecessarily started being held in small venues with poor facilities in the middle-of-nowhere like Norden, Vojens and Pocking. Not very attractive for the casual fan, even if they could work out where the places actually were. The fact though, that the last World Final to be held in a first class stadium (Munich) still attracted something like 50K fans, which is something the SGP has still to achieve. A much higher proportion of fans who regularly attend league racing in the UK go to Cardiff than was the case at even Wembley and especially Bradford (Odsal) for World Finals during the 70s and 80s. Yes, but because there's hardly any speedway fans left, and those that do still go are pretty much the diehards now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpartialOne Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 (edited) Success is different to what you said a Great?been here before with Talent and natural? Back to the proper subject i am backing Jason to get a fourth title in 2012. My god you're hard work! Success, greatness, whatever. The key word you are failing to come to terms with is verge. On the verge of greatness = not yet achieved greatness. On the verge of success = not yet achieved success. Edited December 8, 2011 by ImpartialOne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 My god you're hard work! Success, greatness, whatever. The key word you are failing to come to terms with is verge. On the verge of greatness = not yet achieved greatness. On the verge of success = not yet achieved success. Long as your happy with that ,thats fine we come to a agreement Nielsen has the word Greatness next to his name. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 The reason I place Olsen above Gundersen is because Ole had to work so much harder to achieve what he did. No disrespect meant to Erik, but the opportunities and facilities were there for him BECAUSE of Olsen. To come from a very minor speedway nation - as Denmark was - and achieve such greatness is testament to the guy's ability and determination. Steve I certainly agree that this places Olsen - well imho... - as the top Danish rider of all time. Before Ole, Denmark had no pedigree in producing great Speedway riders... He was the trailblazer. sidney likes using tennis allusions and there's a suitably Scandinavian one with Bjorn Borg... The same reasoning behind rating Olsen so highly (certainly in my all-time top six - don't know why we've settled on six! - riders of all time...) would see me place the great Mirac above his two esteemed fellow World Champ Kiwis... Yes, the great Ronnie Moore of whom none other than Mr. Mauger has written, "Without Ronnie, there would have been no Briggo and no Ivan Mauger; whenever he came home to NZ it was like the arrival of Elvis. He was our Pele if you like." As for the deviation of this thread... Come on, it's the winter (and doesn't it seem so tonight..?!) - we're surely allowed on the BSF to meander around a bit and let's face it, there's been plenty of lively debate!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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