Speedway Gp In Tatters !

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

I thought someone had put up about 10 cases maybe your eyesight and maths are not what they were .

 

Think what you like but have a look and you'll see NO-ONE has done so. More to the point orion hasn't; and tbf it's only him who thinks this any way!

I've no knowledge of the Jan O. Pedersen final but what seems to be being said of that was he had some kind of extra advantage at the start in all his rides... that's got nowt to do with gate positions then has it!!

[Humphrey Appleby]

There's a lot of talk about gate positions influencing World Final results, but I don't see the SGP rotating the race positions in any fair way over the series. As the race positions for each GP are determined by a draw, surely it's possible for one rider to get more favourable positions over the course of the season compared to another...?

[skeletor]

Think what you like but have a look and you'll see NO-ONE has done so. More to the point orion hasn't; and tbf it's only him who thinks this any way!

I've no knowledge of the Jan O. Pedersen final but what seems to be being said of that was he had some kind of extra advantage at the start in all his rides... that's got nowt to do with gate positions then has it!!

 

You sure ? i think it's most important what gate draw you get to say otherwise is pretty foolish . Can you calm down by the way ? it's only a forum your end having a heart attack if you get upset and angry all the time .

[Grand Central]

I thought someone had put up about 10 cases maybe your eyesight and maths are not what they were .

 

For your reassurance. My visual acuity is perfect. my mathematical skills are top notch. I am not upset. I am not angry.

 

But I still can't find the 10 cases you refer to.

 

Please help.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

You sure ? i think it's most important what gate draw you get to say otherwise is pretty foolish . Can you calm down by the way ? it's only a forum your end having a heart attack if you get upset and angry all the time .

 

Perfectly calm thanx! But appreciate the concern!!

[ImpartialOne]

There's a lot of talk about gate positions influencing World Final results, but I don't see the SGP rotating the race positions in any fair way over the series. As the race positions for each GP are determined by a draw, surely it's possible for one rider to get more favourable positions over the course of the season compared to another...?

The difference is they are drawn randomly so riders aren't trying to manipulate positions in order to get a decent draw like they did for world finals. People are saying that gate positions didn't matter. Of course they mattered or riders wouldn't have dropped back in qualifiers to get the draw they wanted. The only difference is commentators didn't analyse it like they do now.

[iris123]

^{Must say i don't know enough about the draw for the Final,but it does seem possible that riders were looking at getting a good draw for good gates and or the gap in between heats to give them time to adjust things.Mauger was very particular in every small detail including from one story in Poland i think,his position in the pits.So i could imagine he would be clued up on this to get some little advantage.The thing though is that you would need to have the best gates when you meet your main rivals.I don't know enough to know if Mauger for instance could know that if he finished second or third in the Intercontinental or European Final he would meet Olsen or Michanek when he had the better gate.But if that is possible to work out then i would be fairly sure riders would try it.I would say it is obvious gate positions are an advantage.....just look at the GP semi + final draws.Riders don't just pick random gates.So Orion + Impartial One might have a valid point.We would need the word of one or two riders to prove one way or the other on this though}

[stratton]

^{Must say i don't know enough about the draw for the Final,but it does seem possible that riders were looking at getting a good draw for good gates and or the gap in between heats to give them time to adjust things.Mauger was very particular in every small detail including from one story in Poland i think,his position in the pits.So i could imagine he would be clued up on this to get some little advantage.The thing though is that you would need to have the best gates when you meet your main rivals.I don't know enough to know if Mauger for instance could know that if he finished second or third in the Intercontinental or European Final he would meet Olsen or Michanek when he had the better gate.But if that is possible to work out then i would be fairly sure riders would try it.I would say it is obvious gate positions are an advantage.....just look at the GP semi + final draws.Riders don't just pick random gates.So Orion + Impartial One might have a valid point.We would need the word of one or two riders to prove one way or the other on this though}

Maybe now it is,? not something i ever thought about then its like i never thought well Collins is off four in that race he will never get Mauger from the back because he is off gate one.Maybe now it is relevent in the 70s and 80s i never even thought about the gate positions.

[iris123]

Maybe now it is,? not something i ever thought about then its like i never thought well Collins is off four in that race he will never get Mauger from the back because he is off gate one.Maybe now it is relevent in the 70s and 80s i never even thought about the gate positions.

You and i never did back then,but i am asking if we know for definite one way or the other if riders did,sidney.Reasonable question i think.With the internet we are all that little bit wiser.In all honesty,i never gave the track much thought either.I never knew a track could be slick or grippy back then.It was dry or soaking wet and they put sawdust down.I could see the difference there.But all the subleties in between were lost on me i admit

[stratton]

You and i never did back then,but i am asking if we know for definite one way or the other if riders did,sidney.Reasonable question i think.With the internet we are all that little bit wiser.In all honesty,i never gave the track much thought either.I never knew a track could be slick or grippy back then.It was dry or soaking wet and they put sawdust down.I could see the difference there.But all the subleties in between were lost on me i admit

Could be right Iris i think riders did there research years ago,i went to the abbey every week,in the 70s and a example Ashby who i rated highly usually always hugged the line that was a known fact then by everyone so to have gate one over him must of been a advantage.Thing was Ashby was that good he could pick his way from the back even top class riders he used to just creep under them and he was ruthless.So Iris if like you are saying riders new beforehand about gates ect must of been a advantage?Maybe its like now its what you put in is what you get out i mean by that doing your homework on certain issues gates and certain gearings on the bike.

[iris123]

Could be right Iris i think riders did there research years ago,i went to the abbey every week,in the 70s and a example Ashby who i rated highly usually always hugged the line that was a known fact then by everyone so to have gate one over him must of been a advantage.Thing was Ashby was that good he could pick his way from the back even top class riders he used to just creep under them and he was ruthless.So Iris if like you are saying riders new beforehand about gates ect must of been a advantage?Maybe its like now its what you put in is what you get out i mean by that doing your homework on certain issues gates and certain gearings on the bike.

Yes.I just don't think we should laugh the idea off like Parsloes does, without hearing from the riders themselves.And even though i was a Wimbledon fan Ashby was one of my favourite opposition riders.And that was even more reinforced when he helped the Dons out so often after the tragic death of Tommy jansson.Class act he was.Very under rated

[stratton]

Yes.I just don't think we should laugh the idea off like Parsloes does, without hearing from the riders themselves.And even though i was a Wimbledon fan Ashby was one of my favourite opposition riders.And that was even more reinforced when he helped the Dons out so often after the tragic death of Tommy jansson.Class act he was.Very under rated

Yes im lucky really seen Briggo,Ashby,Kilby,Crump[both]Autrey,Adams at the abbey see Ashby lose in the helmet to Tommy ,well Jansson was classy in a way Adams riding style reminded me a bit like Jansson i think.Iris i wouldnt dismiss anything have a open mind on the gate issue as i am no way a exspert on it.

[ImpartialOne]

Gate positions have always been important. No two grids will ever be the same and whether the track is condusive to good racing or not, as a rider you want the best advantage possible from the start. That has always been the case. Just because you might be Peter Collins who can pass on a decent track doesn't mean you want to give Ivan Mauger a head start!

 

As I said, commentators didn't delve as far as they do now, that's why it's now brought to the attention of the specttator/viewer. Every rider has a different preference for gates; some like slick, some like deep ruts, others will go off fresh if it's available. Some say deep ruts are better because the tyre walls grip the sides of the rut but they can also cause you to bottom out and lose ground. It all depends on the rider and the way the track is on the day but it has always been important and riders have always watched which gates are duffers and which are working.

[chunky]

The difference is they are drawn randomly so riders aren't trying to manipulate positions in order to get a decent draw like they did for world finals. People are saying that gate positions didn't matter. Of course they mattered or riders wouldn't have dropped back in qualifiers to get the draw they wanted.

 

I think you'll find that riders did that in order to get a position in the lineup that gave them some well-spaced rides, rather than concentrating on gate positions. With the old 20-heat format, a rider had to go off every gate at least once, so the most they could do is to hope that they had good gate positions when up against their main competition. Still, in those days, most tracks had enough dirt on them so that it was quite possible to come from the back. Gate 2 at Coventry was the exception, I think!

 

Steve

[norbold]

Think there are a number of well documented cases.Ask Norbold.There was even one case of a rider failing to get his World Title because he actually refused to bung a rider a few quid(i think he turned down the offer if i remember rightly)and got beat in his last heat

Sorry, only just seen this. I realise things have moved on from here but if you're referring to the Jack Biggs final I have to say I find the whole story a bit dubious. Jack Biggs appeared unbeatable on the night and won his first four races fairly comfortably. The story goes that he was approached by the other three riders in his last race who told him that if he bunged them some cash they'd stay out of his way. As he had won his first four races easily I'm not sure why they would have done this as he would have expected to beat them anyway. The story continues that he refused so they all beat him. Now why had no-one thought of beating him in his other four races??? In my opinion, after reading reports and speaking to people who were there as spectators and in the pits, I think that Biggs just became a bag of nerves at thought of winning the World Championship and fluffed his start. He was on the outside anyway and just couldn't make up the ground. I don't think bribery had anything to do with it. Just my opinion.

[Humphrey Appleby]

The difference is they are drawn randomly so riders aren't trying to manipulate positions in order to get a decent draw like they did for world finals.

 

The problem with World Finals was that the draw for each round was (as far as I know) made and published for in advance. Why on earth the FIM did that, I don't know, but seem to remember it was changed in the latter years.

 

People are saying that gate positions didn't matter. Of course they mattered or riders wouldn't have dropped back in qualifiers to get the draw they wanted.

 

I think it was as much to get more evenly spaced rides as it was to get favourable gates. No-one wants the four riding positions that have two rides on the trot.

 

Trying to get favourable gates is a double edged sword as they can change with the conditions.

[chunky]

think that Biggs just became a bag of nerves at thought of winning the World Championship and fluffed his start. He was on the outside anyway and just couldn't make up the ground. I don't think bribery had anything to do with it. Just my opinion.

 

While it is possible that some kind of "deal" was offered, I agree that nerves simply got the better of him. When one looks at that Heat 19 lineup, Split Waterman could not have been ruled out as a possible winner of the race; at that stage, he had 9 points in the bag, and however unlikely it may have seemed, he was still in contention for the title. Williams had 6, and Lawson 5, going into the race. Biggs didn't have to worry about winning it, but just had to finish in front of one of those two. That's why nerves seem the most logical conclusion. Obviously, he had another bite at the cherry (albeit against much stiffer opposition), but was probably still ruing that Heat 19 disaster...

 

Steve

[Cockney Rebel]

Gate positions have always been important to the riders but it's only since the more in depth Sky coverage that it's been brought tothe notice of many fans. I remember a match between Hackney and West Ham sometime in the late sixties I think when Olle Nygren got the hump with his partner in one race because he came out on track and settled into the inside gate position Olle wnated him to move to gate three, as he explained later "The only way we were going to beat Barry Thomas was for me to be inside him at the first turn I couldn't do that from gate three."

[iris123]

Sorry, only just seen this. I realise things have moved on from here but if you're referring to the Jack Biggs final I have to say I find the whole story a bit dubious.

Just my opinion.

Yes Norbold,that was the story i was refering to.This wouldn't be the only one,but one of the ones i have read about.Seem to also recall reading about Van Praag or was it Wilkinson that supposedly used an oversized engine.

One of the things that i found thought provoking as well was the Briggo interview with Ronnie Moore.Ronnie describes the top riders of the early 50s as a "Clan" a "Closed shop" and i think "almost like a union.....you were either in or out".Saying he was pysically threatened and mentioned Jack Parker who talked to his brother Norman while Ronnie was next to him saying "Tell your boy to slow down or i will kill him".Now Briggo i think on more than one occasion asked about if money was involved,but Ronnie doesn't really answer precisely.Part of the trouble with the interview seems to be Ronnies hearing and mis-understanding questions,but i do wonder why if nothing untoward happened back then,why Briggo mentions the topic....Would like to see what Briggo himself has to say about such things.If he can categorically say that nothing untoward happened

Edited December 5, 2011 by iris123

[waiheke1]

Really good points about Jessup,1980 he had a terrific year and i am the same as you wasnt a fan but his record as a rider is outstanding.Lee in 1980 it was a great performance nipped through to get Collins for second and then got Penhall from the back so deserved to win that year.As for Crump i am a bit bias because i was a massive fan and looking back now his record dosent look great 3 world finals poor really.But for me Crump being a force in the 70s and up to 85 was harder to do than say stay in the gps as it is now mainly because for me the strength in debth was higher then.

 

1. So, you agree Jessup was good enough to wint the World title?

2. So you believe that reaching World Finals was harder than winning GPs due to strenth in depth? You think it was that much stronger then? Or is there some other basis on which you think J Crump was better than Pedersen.

 

On the "gate position " issue.

Here's some footage that confirms that riders do see gate postion as asignificant advantage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AnoxEvYa4as

Also, I have to say that I do recall Speedway Star etc. commeting on impact of gate postions, so don't think it is anew thing at all.

 

Finally, on the 1980 final, I had my stats wrong. Gate three totalled 18 points over the night (average 0.9 pts per rider), wheras gate 1 scored 47 points (average 2.35 points per ride). So, you have to say that Lee (who had gate 1 twice) definitely had an advabntage over Jessup (who has gate 3 twice) - you could argue a 1.45 pt advantage due to luck of the draw. With finals as tight as they were, I think you have to acknowledge that that's reasonably significant.