Speedway Gp In Tatters !

[stratton]

Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha etc etc.

You agree cool.

[waiheke1]

So come on, rise to the challenge presented, tell us ANY WF where someone won because they, er, had better gate positions than anyone or is it everyone else (I actually can't fathom out your 'argument' at all to be truthful..!)?

 

From the 80salone, world finals in which the draw may have influenced who won the title.

 

1980 World Final: only 12points scored off gate 3 all meeting. Dave Jessup, who was a red hot favourite, was drawn off this gate twice. He finished second.

 

1982: Penhall went looking for Carter (gate 4) from the first bend. Had Carter not been outside him its highly unlikely that he would have been able to do this, and that critical race could have panned out totally differently.

 

1985: 9 of the first 12 heats were won off gate 1 (the other three races gate 1 finished 2^nd). After the interval, the gates were a lot more even. Sam Ermolenko, who was a rank outsider, had gate 1 twice before the interval (won both rides) and ended up in a run-off for the title. . Compatriot Shaun Moran was a hot favourtite for the meeting, won his first ride (off gate 1), but followed this up with two thirds off less fancied gates. Had the draw been reversed, who’s to say that Shaun wouldn’t have at least made the run-off?

 

Of course there were other finals where the draw would have made no difference – for example, IMHO, Penhall in 81 and Muller in 83 would have won regardless of which gates they were drawn on. But, you can’t say it wasn’t a factor in at least some of the World Finals.

 

Also in the 80s, World finals where rostrum places (or even World Champion)were affected by an engine failure or controversial refereeing decision (not saying decision was wrong, just that it could have gone either way) : 81 (Carter/Jessup/Gundersen), 82 (Carter), 83 (Nielsen), 86 (Knudsen), 89 (Gundersen). You could possibly add Jonsson in 88 to the list, or Nielsens’s unfortunate first bend crash in 85 where he dropped his only points when forced to use his second bike in the re-run.

 

That’s not to say that the World Champions didn’t deserve that victory – they did - just that along with skill, determination, preparation, etc. to be World Champion you also needed a little luck on the day.

 

To make it clear – I do not agree with Orion. However, plenty of people have come on here and said “bring back a real world championship” without presenting any argument as to why GP is not a “real” WC. At least Orion has presented an argument in defence of his view, and one which has an element of validity.

[Grand Central]

1985: 9 of the first 12 heats were won off gate 1 (the other three races gate 1 finished 2^nd). After the interval, the gates were a lot more even. Sam Ermolenko, who was a rank outsider, had gate 1 twice before the interval (won both rides) and ended up in a run-off for the title. . Compatriot Shaun Moran was a hot favourtite for the meeting, won his first ride (off gate 1), but followed this up with two thirds off less fancied gates. Had the draw been reversed, who’s to say that Shaun wouldn’t have at least made the run-off?

 

I fully recognise that you are not really agreeing with Orion's stance on this matter but are trying to use facts to show how the draw could have an impact.

 

However, the 1985 example just shows how sometimes there are enough facts to choose from to substantiate any postion. You just have to choose carefully.

You're right that Sam may have got a little early advantage from the two insides in his second and third rides but I fear that would tend to be a gross oversimplification and distortion of the days events if that is the only way we look at it.

But of course, neither Ermolenko, or Moran, won that meeting.

And neither the winner or the runner up actually enjoyed the gate advantage you mention as being so essential to Sam's fortunes.

Gundersen went off 2-1-4 before the interval, and 3-2 after; Nielsen 1-2-3 for the interval and 4-3 after.

Interestingly you picked Shawn Moran as an example who also had the same three gates before the inerval as Nielsen 1-3-2 yet where Nielsen had got 9 points from these three outings Moran had scored only 5 ... so not really down to the draw, just possibly down to who was better that afternoon, regardless of their riding number, I would suggest.

 

I could go on but I just feel that this and your other mentions of gate positions are interesting but don't really cut it for attrbuting the meeting draw as the a major reason for titles won or lost.

I await other examples for a our perusal

Edited December 4, 2011 by Grand Central

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

I await other examples for a our perusal

 

Indeed. I too found waihekeaces1's contribution interesting and thought-provoking and I thank him/her for it. Interesting though that our friend Orion's gone very quiet on the subject!!!

[mickthemuppet]

^{Virtually all the talk on here is about previous world finals. Some peoples memories are pretty good and people still speak on fond memories of these meetings}

^{Except Chris Harris winning a GP at Cardiff there does not seem to be many memorable GP's of which there has been far more of. and also more recent. It's a shame we could not carry on with the GP's and have an individual world championship as well}

[waiheke1]

I could go on but I just feel that this and your other mentions of gate positions are interesting but don't really cut it for attrbuting the meeting draw as the a major reason for titles won or lost.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying gate postions were a major factor, or that the Champion would have been different. But gate postions clearly were a factor (one of many) and may have altered the destiny of the title (its obviously impossible to prove this either way) in some cases.

 

Going back to 85 - five riders would have had zero rides of gate 1 prior to the interval - if for example gunderssen was one of them, would he have still been able to be world champion? Nielsen had the advantage of being off gate 1 for his toughest heat, whereas Moran's gate 1 was some what "wasted" in being in his easiest ride. The result may have been the same if the draw was different, or it may have been

(Also, I think I got my stats wrong, and it was 8 out of 12 heat wins (and 4 second places) off gate 1 - but still, clearly a significant, though not insurmountable, advantage.)

 

Anyway, my point is that in some finals the titles' destiny may have been altered by small factors such as gate advantage. That is not to take away anything from those that did win, nor to say that there were not many instances where one rider was so good on the night that they would have overcome any disadvantage.

 

1979/80 Michael lee broke his back in the indoor at Birmingham so it took him a while to get back so that year he was behind jessup in the averages.But Lee was for me at a different level to Jessup who although his record speaks for itself was never good anough to be world champion.His record on the big tracks consistently over a long period wasnt great i see him at Hyde rd he was dreadful gate often get picked off one B.L.R.C he was poor cant remember the year?Also Sheffield, Halifax, he wasnt overly impressive.Maybe i am doing Dave an injustice,also Lee said in his DVD how many times D.j borrowed his bike and often was happy to do so in the end it got to be a bit of a joke.

DJ was clearly not as naturally talented as Mike, nor was his equipment as good.

But...in 1980 DJ won the British final, Commonwealth final, was unbeaten in the World Pairs final, top of the averages for England in the tests vs USA, top English scorer in the successful WTC campaid, SWAPA rider of the year... can you name a rider who was better than him in 1980? Who do you think would have won an SGP that year?

DJ arguably missed out on the World title in 78 due to engine troubles, on a runners up slot in 81 due to engine troubles, and finished second in the World in 80 - what makes you say he was not good enough to win the title?

I agree, he wasn't great around Hyde Rd (though I belive he scored 16 in a test match v USA in 81), and I didn't rate him that highly myself at the time - but when you look back he was a damn good rider.

 

And, you say Phil Crump was better than Leigh Adams, and Adams better than N Pedersen - so effectively you're saying a rider who qualified for 3 World Finals is better than a rider who won the SGP three times !?! On what basis?

I agree Crumpy underchieved in World Finals, but don't think he would have done better (in term of rostrum places) than one second place under a GP system (though he would have had performed solidly over a number of years in the 70s). I also don't think there's anyway he would have finished top 8 in any of the years in the 1980s, and thereofr edon't think he would have compared to Leigh Adams for either rostrum finishes or longevity at the highest level.

Edited December 5, 2011 by waihekeaces1

[Grand Central]

To be clear, I'm not saying gate postions were a major factor, or that the Champion would have been different. But gate postions clearly were a factor (one of many) and may have altered the destiny of the title (its obviously impossible to prove this either way) in some cases.

................

 

Yes, i agree. And with the other points regarding Jessup and Crump. Spot On.

[Trees]

^{Virtually all the talk on here is about previous world finals. Some peoples memories are pretty good and people still speak on fond memories of these meetings}

^{Except Chris Harris winning a GP at Cardiff there does not seem to be many memorable GP's of which there has been far more of. and also more recent. It's a shame we could not carry on with the GP's and have an individual world championship as well}

No because there are too bloody many of them!!

[chunky]

1977 Parsloes how that meeting was concluded god knows,Reading world team cup 1980 is the worst i have ever seen riders have to ride in that was bad.

 

Don't know if you were there, sidney, but I'm sure that Parsloes will remember the 1980 Grand Prix final at Wimbledon. Dennis Sigalos won in conditions that I would put up there with Gothenburg in 1977.

 

Steve

[ImpartialOne]

Oh and btw, as apparently the gate positions are the same in the 20 heats section of the SGPs why are they not also hugely flawed under your 'reasoning' by that..?!

I've already explained this to you earlier. This shows you don't read anything properly or you would have challenged me over it at the time or just not asked this question.

 

Remember in 1991 jan o Pedersen one of the worst gaters ive ever seen just bombed out of every gate and blitzed his way to victory.Because it was his night and it didn't matter what gate he was on he would of won whatever.

There is of course, a very good reason why Jan O. strangely blitzed everyone from the gate that night. He was using a F1 type tyre warmer which was subsequently banned as a result of him using one.

 

 

[Blazeaway]

 

There is of course, a very good reason why Jan O. strangely blitzed everyone from the gate that night. He was using a F1 type tyre warmer which was subsequently banned as a result of him using one.

 

This is what I love about the forum, people posting opinions only to get blown out of the water by facts. Excellent!!

[orion]

Indeed. I too found waihekeaces1's contribution interesting and thought-provoking and I thank him/her for it. Interesting though that our friend Orion's gone very quiet on the subject!!!

 

What else is there to say ? you are your oap mate watched speedway but think never had a clue that it matter what gate riders were on ...just like most subjects on here your got made to look a fool again .

[waiheke1]

1977 Parsloes how that meeting was concluded god knows,Reading world team cup 1980 is the worst i have ever seen riders have to ride in that was bad.

 

Not wanting to be pedantic, but the uk qualifying meeting for the WTC in 1980 was held at Kings Lynn, and the weather (from footage and photos I've seen) was fine? The following meeting (at Vojens) however was torrential. Wrong meeting/year?

England v USA 1985 is the wettest meeting I recall seeing at Hyde Rd.

Edited December 5, 2011 by waihekeaces1

[Grand Central]

Not wanting to be pedantic, but the uk qualifying meeting for the WTC in 1980 was held at Kings Lynn, and the weather (from footage and photos I've seen) was fine? The following meeting (at Vojens) however was torrential. Wrong meeting/year?

England v USA 1985 is the wettest meeting I recall seeing at Hyde Rd.

 

The WTC round being referred to that was very, very wet was the 1979 one at Reading where England got knocked out by New Zealand.

[stratton]

The WTC round being referred to that was very, very wet was the 1979 one at Reading where England got knocked out by New Zealand.

Sorry was it 1979,? was wet and that is a understatement, i no Gordon Kennett rode in it?/

 

This is what I love about the forum, people posting opinions only to get blown out of the water by facts. Excellent!!

It is not a fact just a opinion, in the roll of honour does it say jan o pedersen,s name on it i think so.jan o was a terrific rider and won it on the night and had Nielsens measure alot around that time.Its like saying Egon was lucky he new Norden like the back of his hand and had everything set to his needs.Thats life and things like that happen.Over the years me personally i have never heard anyone moan obout jan o Pedersen,s win not even Nielsen.

 

What else is there to say ? you are your oap mate watched speedway but think never had a clue that it matter what gate riders were on ...just like most subjects on here your got made to look a fool again .

He maybe a oap, but at least there is a substance to what he is saying also he actually went to these events did you?As for having a clue i think nearly all you said was alot of total rubbish no research facts or anything to back it up with.To say there was all those winners and they were all lucky because of the gates, well is laughable.

 

To be clear, I'm not saying gate postions were a major factor, or that the Champion would have been different. But gate postions clearly were a factor (one of many) and may have altered the destiny of the title (its obviously impossible to prove this either way) in some cases.

 

Going back to 85 - five riders would have had zero rides of gate 1 prior to the interval - if for example gunderssen was one of them, would he have still been able to be world champion? Nielsen had the advantage of being off gate 1 for his toughest heat, whereas Moran's gate 1 was some what "wasted" in being in his easiest ride. The result may have been the same if the draw was different, or it may have been

(Also, I think I got my stats wrong, and it was 8 out of 12 heat wins (and 4 second places) off gate 1 - but still, clearly a significant, though not insurmountable, advantage.)

 

Anyway, my point is that in some finals the titles' destiny may have been altered by small factors such as gate advantage. That is not to take away anything from those that did win, nor to say that there were not many instances where one rider was so good on the night that they would have overcome any disadvantage.

 

 

DJ was clearly not as naturally talented as Mike, nor was his equipment as good.

But...in 1980 DJ won the British final, Commonwealth final, was unbeaten in the World Pairs final, top of the averages for England in the tests vs USA, top English scorer in the successful WTC campaid, SWAPA rider of the year... can you name a rider who was better than him in 1980? Who do you think would have won an SGP that year?

DJ arguably missed out on the World title in 78 due to engine troubles, on a runners up slot in 81 due to engine troubles, and finished second in the World in 80 - what makes you say he was not good enough to win the title?

I agree, he wasn't great around Hyde Rd (though I belive he scored 16 in a test match v USA in 81), and I didn't rate him that highly myself at the time - but when you look back he was a damn good rider.

 

And, you say Phil Crump was better than Leigh Adams, and Adams better than N Pedersen - so effectively you're saying a rider who qualified for 3 World Finals is better than a rider who won the SGP three times !?! On what basis?

I agree Crumpy underchieved in World Finals, but don't think he would have done better (in term of rostrum places) than one second place under a GP system (though he would have had performed solidly over a number of years in the 70s). I also don't think there's anyway he would have finished top 8 in any of the years in the 1980s, and thereofr edon't think he would have compared to Leigh Adams for either rostrum finishes or longevity at the highest level.

Really good points about Jessup,1980 he had a terrific year and i am the same as you wasnt a fan but his record as a rider is outstanding.Lee in 1980 it was a great performance nipped through to get Collins for second and then got Penhall from the back so deserved to win that year.As for Crump i am a bit bias because i was a massive fan and looking back now his record dosent look great 3 world finals poor really.But for me Crump being a force in the 70s and up to 85 was harder to do than say stay in the gps as it is now mainly because for me the strength in debth was higher then.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

What else is there to say ? you are your oap mate watched speedway but think never had a clue that it matter what gate riders were on ...just like most subjects on here your got made to look a fool again .

 

There's been a deafening silence from you on the subject of any occasion when gate positions made the massive difference you claim..

A good reason for that as there are NO examples. You are talking out of your proverbial I'm afraid...

 

He maybe a oap, but at least there is a substance to what he is saying also he actually went to these events did you?As for having a clue i think nearly all you said was alot of total rubbish no research facts or anything to back it up with.To say there was all those winners and they were all lucky because of the gates, well is laughable.

 

Er, I think our ageist friend Master Orion meant it was you who's the OAP, sidney!! I may be an OAP - but i'm bloody NOT!!!!! But as you say, I was lucky enough to go to a number classic WFs and no, I can truthfully say that NO-ONE there or commenting on them then or since has EVER suggested that gate positions were in any way significant in deciding the outcome. When the likes of Collins and Olsen so often passed riders from behind, tell me orion how did that make anyone's starting position or indeed start itself in any way significant!? My young (!) friend sidney sums it up, your argument is literally laughable!!

[ImpartialOne]

It is not a fact just a opinion, in the roll of honour does it say jan o pedersen,s name on it i think so.jan o was a terrific rider and won it on the night and ad Nielsens measure alot around that time.Its like saying Egon was lucky he new Norden like the back of his hand and had everything set to his needs.Thats life and things like that happen.Over the years me personally i have never heard anyone moan obout jan o Pedersen,s win not even Nielsen.

It's not an opinion that Jan O was using tyre warmers but a fact. And it's also a fact that they were banned before anyone else could take advantage of them.

 

I'm not moaning about his win at all, just giving the reason for his uncharacteristic lightning starts that day. He saw an opportunity and took it. But the danger was that others would have to then do the same, which creates more expense and if everyone used them it negates the advantage.

 

The point was that without tyre warmers Jan O would likely have struggled off certain gates.

Edited December 5, 2011 by ImpartialOne

[stratton]

It's not an opinion that Jan O was using tyre warmers but a fact. And it's also a fact that they were banned before anyone else could take advantage of them.

 

I'm not moaning about his win at all, just giving the reason for his uncharacteristic lightning starts that day. He saw an opportunity and took it. But the danger was that others would have to then do the same, which creates more expense and if everyone used them it negates the advantage.

 

The point was that without tyre warmers Jan O would likely have struggled off certain gates.

I see your point and you did acknowledge Jan o s win,maybe he was just clever anough to gain an advantage and get away with it .I must admit his gating in that meeting was unbelievable.Maybe he was lucky to get away with it but i always felt like with Mauger any little bit of detail and a little edge he used it.Can always remember what Ivan said once about Briggoe,s toolbox all his spanners were never in order.And even an old fox like Briggs a legend learned something off Mauger,s professionalism.Fair play impartial one thats something new ive learned about the tyre issue.

[WIE-JA]

What else is there to say ? you are your oap mate watched speedway but think never had a clue that it matter what gate riders were on ...just like most subjects on here your got made to look a fool again .

 

And in English?

[skeletor]

There's been a deafening silence from you on the subject of any occasion when gate positions made the massive difference you claim..

A good reason for that as there are NO examples. You are talking out of your proverbial I'm afraid...

 

 

 

Er, I think our ageist friend Master Orion meant it was you who's the OAP, sidney!! I may be an OAP - but i'm bloody NOT!!!!! But as you say, I was lucky enough to go to a number classic WFs and no, I can truthfully say that NO-ONE there or commenting on them then or since has EVER suggested that gate positions were in any way significant in deciding the outcome. When the likes of Collins and Olsen so often passed riders from behind, tell me orion how did that make anyone's starting position or indeed start itself in any way significant!? My young (!) friend sidney sums it up, your argument is literally laughable!!

There's been a deafening silence from you on the subject of any occasion when gate positions made the massive difference you claim..

A good reason for that as there are NO examples. You are talking out of your proverbial I'm afraid...

 

 

 

 

 

I thought someone had put up about 10 cases maybe your eyesight and maths are not what they were .