Speedway Gp In Tatters !

[Gearhead]

 

The best riders will win off any gate anyway,exspecially if its there night, and they are fireing and everything is going right.I dont think Mauger won 6 titles all off gate one did he and by having lucky gates.I think Orion you are on a different planet, to most of us.

 

If he drew gate 4 twice he'd have a hard time if people like Olsen/Michanek etc were of 1 not to mention other top names on the inside of him,a bad draw can ruin some chances

 

Next year in the gp.series only GOLLOB,CRUMP,HAMPEL,JONSSON,HANCOCK, have any chance of winning the world title in my opinion and three of those are not going to go on for ever which is a worry for the sport.Dont matter though if you come 11th you will probably be in it the year after?I dont understand Orion why you have a huge downer on the one off final its part of the history of the sport why knock it.

 

The one offs will always be special,itd be unfair for anyone to deny that,

 

The riders mentioned would all be at the favoured end,is add Pedersen to that list,I'm sure he'll be back up there,but all of this backs up the GP theory.

There are other riders capable of pulling off an odd win but lack some of the other atributes that go to winning the title.

For an example,the biggest meeting of the year is Cardiff,if the title was decided thee we'd have seen World Champs of Harris,Holder,Sullivan etc,add the likes of.these to other winners tha were not such a surprise and it strengthens also the case that picking the best gates is a big advantage,the as drawing the better,(even more so at a permanent track)

[stratton]

If he drew gate 4 twice he'd have a hard time if people like Olsen/Michanek etc were of 1 not to mention other top names on the inside of him,a bad draw can ruin some chances

 

 

 

The one offs will always be special,itd be unfair for anyone to deny that,

 

The riders mentioned would all be at the favoured end,is add Pedersen to that list,I'm sure he'll be back up there,but all of this backs up the GP theory.

There are other riders capable of pulling off an odd win but lack some of the other atributes that go to winning the title.

For an example,the biggest meeting of the year is Cardiff,if the title was decided thee we'd have seen World Champs of Harris,Holder,Sullivan etc,add the likes of.these to other winners tha were not such a surprise and it strengthens also the case that picking the best gates is a big advantage,the as drawing the better,(even more so at a permanent track)

Really good point,Gearhead, about the gates on a permanent track,going back on the gates in the one off final,i think if you look at the roll of honour and statistics.Apart from 73 when Ivan give it away all the right riders over a period won it.Maybe they didnt always win it in the right year but i think the best riders won.Anyway those days have gone now just thought what Orion said was an insult to the history of the sport and was a slur on the great champions who won it when that system was in place.

[ImpartialOne]

I seem to remember a few riders winning in the No. 13 jacket. Some riders didn't like being drawn at 13 but others thought it was lucky 13, but I would hazard a guess it was more to do with gate draw than the number. Did 13 get two gate 1s?

 

Edit: Just looked at the GP draw for Number 13; 4,1,1,2,3 which I believe is the same as the World Final draws. So 13 is an advantage on paper.

Edited December 4, 2011 by ImpartialOne

[Grand Central]

I seem to remember a few riders winning in the No. 13 jacket. Some riders didn't like being drawn at 13 but others thought it was lucky 13, but I would hazard a guess it was more to do with gate draw than the number. Did 13 get two gate 1s?

 

Edit: Just looked at the GP draw for Number 13; 4,1,1,2,3 which I believe is the same as the World Final draws. So 13 is an advantage on paper.

 

It all depends on what you call an advantage.

Ivan Mauger speciifcally disliked the Number 13 as he gets his first ride in Heat 4 and his second in Heat 5 ... the disadvantage he felt was that he may not have enough time to change anything after his first outing to put it right for his second and the gap for his third race is much longer. He felt that the double inside gate was less of an advantage that you are suggesting it may have had.

In 1979 he did drop out of the runoff at the Inter Continental Final to avoid the number 13 jacket; even though he ended up with the number 15 which then gave him his last two races on the trot; which he thought was better.

Actually without 'second sight' I have no idea how much difference this would ever have made because he could have easily have needed to have changed something between his fourth and fifth rides when the Championship was on the line and he still may not have had enough time.

It's all swings and round abouts and MUCH MUCH more about psycology. In that one moment at White City he made the whole world know that he was to be a serious contender in Katowice; And I think that is more what he wanted to acheive.

 

Personally, I would be interested to know - from the people are being so insistent that the draw mattered that much - to give a few examples of the specific finals where it really did make all the difference. I am not aware of any but await enlightenment.

[Humphrey Appleby]

In fact it would be easier to compare WSC with the SGP series in the way it revolutionised the sport

 

I think I'm missing how the SGP has revolutionised the sport. Are the riders now earning more (seems unlikely as the prize money has hardly increased in years), has overall revenue increased in the sport, and is top-flight speedway ridden in more countries than previously?

 

With respect to the WSC, I think the general consensus is that the early matches were poor quality - played on sub-standard pitches where hostile bowling was encouraged (hence the need to introduce helmets) and in front of very poor crowds. The breakthrough was when limited overs floodlit cricket was introduced the following year, and the rest as they say is history.

[orion]

The best riders will win off any gate anyway,exspecially if its there night, and they are fireing and everything is going right.I dont think Mauger won 6 titles all off gate one did he and by having lucky gates.I think Orion you are on a different planet, to most of us.

 

No they won't win off any gate at the top level ...if two unbeaten riders meet in there last race and one has the best gate and one has the worst then the most likely result is one with the best gate is going to win ....for someone who reckons he watches speedway you sure clueless if you don't reckon it's not important what gates riders are on and there going to go out and win no matter what .

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

No they won't win off any gate at the top level ...if two unbeaten riders meet in there last race and one has the best gate and one has the worst then the most likely result is one with the best gate is going to win ....for someone who reckons he watches speedway you sure clueless if you don't reckon it's not important what gates riders are on and there going to go out and win no matter what .

 

Check out some footage of Peter Collins, Ole Olsen and at his peak Ivan Mauger (as examples) on YouTube and you tell us if having different gates made any difference to their ability to win races in World Finals..!! The expression used for all that messing around at the gate is gardening; and truly in this case you've dug yourself one heck of a big hole..!

[orion]

Check out some footage of Peter Collins, Ole Olsen and at his peak Ivan Mauger (as examples) on YouTube and you tell us if having different gates made any difference to their ability to win races in World Finals..!! The expression used for all that messing around at the gate is gardening; and truly in this case you've dug yourself one heck of a big hole..!

 

So let me get this correct ..your saying that what gate you have makes no difference ?

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

So let me get this correct ..your saying that what gate you have makes no difference ?

 

Er, well I'm saying that there was no evidence that - for example - when Anders Michanek swept to an immaculate 15 points maximum in '74 and then Olsen did likewise the next year at Wembley and then PC's superb racing in the '76 Final, that there was ANY way in which 'gate positions' (yawn!) had any bearing on it whatsoever...

 

So come on, rise to the challenge presented, tell us ANY WF where someone won because they, er, had better gate positions than anyone or is it everyone else (I actually can't fathom out your 'argument' at all to be truthful..!)?

[orion]

Er, well I'm saying that there was no evidence that - for example - when Anders Michanek swept to an immaculate 15 points maximum in '74 and then Olsen did likewise the next year at Wembley and then PC's superb racing in the '76 Final, that there was ANY way in which 'gate positions' (yawn!) had any bearing on it whatsoever...

 

So come on, rise to the challenge presented, tell us ANY WF where someone won because they, er, had better gate positions than anyone or is it everyone else (I actually can't fathom out your 'argument' at all to be truthful..!)?

 

 

 

 

 

i ask you a question don't try to duck it ..do you thinks it's matter what gate a speedway rider is on ? it's a simple yes or no question

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

i ask you a question don't try to duck it ..do you thinks it's matter what gate a speedway rider is on ? it's a simple yes or no question

 

At the level we're talking about with the riders of the ability we're talking about, no I absolutely do NOT think that the gate positions mattered. Nor was it EVER a matter of debate at the time! Oh and btw, as apparently the gate positions are the same in the 20 heats section of the SGPs why are they not also hugely flawed under your 'reasoning' by that..?!

 

But there's only one person dodging the question: tell us, you've made the utterly ridiculous comment (several times now...) that the old WF was a rubbish event and a lottery because it all depended on what gate riders got.. I know this is not something you can prove as it's errant nonsense, but you made the 'point' so go on, illustrate it with some examples!

[orion]

At the level we're talking about with the riders of the ability we're talking about, no I absolutely do NOT think that the gate positions mattered.

 

 

 

:rofl:

[WIE-JA]

:rofl:

 

So come on then Onion, give us some examples to help prove your posts are not just ignorant rubbish. Something like all world champions wore the number 4 race jacket for example.

[orion]

So come on then Onion, give us some examples to help prove your posts are not just ignorant rubbish. Something like all world champions wore the number 4 race jacket for example.

 

Well common sense will tell's that if the race draw is changed then so will the race dynamic in each heat thus changeing the outcome of each heat and indeed the overrall result ..and with small margins in a one off world finals many of the results would not have been the same .

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Well common sense will tell's that if the race draw is changed then so will the race dynamic in each heat thus changeing the outcome of each heat and indeed the overrall result ..and with small margins in a one off world finals many of the results would not have been the same .

 

Yep - you're still deep in that hole!!!!

[stratton]

:rofl:

I just dont no what point you are making orion, no logic at all also why you have a opinion on the one off final you didnt see one did you. ive found sometimes you go to a meeting,certain gates are favoured then conditsions change then it turns totally around.i think in team meetings years ago usually the top guys picked and chose his gates was a advantage maybe then but gate positions is not something ive ever worried about.Remember in 1991 jan o Pedersen one of the worst gaters ive ever seen just bombed out of every gate and blitzed his way to victory.Because it was his night and it didnt matter what gate he was on he would of won whatever.

 

No they won't win off any gate at the top level ...if two unbeaten riders meet in there last race and one has the best gate and one has the worst then the most likely result is one with the best gate is going to win ....for someone who reckons he watches speedway you sure clueless if you don't reckon it's not important what gates riders are on and there going to go out and win no matter what .

Clueless?,every meeting different conditsions maybe it is heavy, slick, you dont no that till the day. You have no idea what you are on about and that is being kind to you.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

I just dont no what point you are making orion, no logic at all also why you have a opinion on the one off final you didnt see one did you. ive found sometimes you go to a meeting,certain gates are favoured then conditsions change then it turns totally around.i think in team meetings years ago usually the top guys picked and chose his gates was a advantage maybe then but gate positions is not something ive ever worried about.Remember in 1991 jan o Pedersen one of the worst gaters ive ever seen just bombed out of every gate and blitzed his way to victory.Because it was his night and it didnt matter what gate he was on he would of won whatever.

 

Well indeed. I'd kinda like to know how Orion ever thinks any rider gets a 15 points maximum in a 20 heat indiv. if - as he claims - gate positions matter so much!?

 

The thing about the WF was even in shocking conditions where the word 'lottery' would one thinks possibly be applied, quality came to the fore.

There's no question whatsoever that the best rider in the world in 1977 was PC: his imperious performance in the Inter-Continental Final at White City (when he kept passing from behind - er, can't think therefore that gate positions mattered much to our Peter!); but of course a terrible injury befell him on the eve of travelling to Sweden for the Final. PC's closest rival was Olsen.

In Gothenberg the rains came with a ferocity I've never seen before with a meeting carrying on. Surely in such conditions anyone could win the Final - especially as home favourite Michanek like PC, was so badly injured he tooo had to lifted on and off his bike.

But actually it was the only WF when the top three was the top three riders of the era: Mauger, PC and Olsen..

 

Not the order we wanted but probably the best example ever of how there was a special breed of top rider capable despite a range of external circumstances of excelling on the night. The three of them would be creasing up with laughter at suggestions that gate positions had anything to do with that!

 

And before you say, yes I know I said PC was the best rider in the world in '77 but lost and trust me it was a near-tragedy that he lost out on that title, but the blood and guts and sheer excirtement of the indiv. WF was a price worth paying as this was the ultimate test... Is the closed-shop, cosiness of the SGP the ultimate test..? Not in anything like the same sense, no...

[stratton]

Well indeed. I'd kinda like to know how Orion ever thinks any rider gets a 15 points maximum in a 20 heat indiv. if - as he claims - gate positions matter so much!?

 

The thing about the WF was even in shocking conditions where the word 'lottery' would one thinks possibly be applied, quality came to the fore.

There's no question whatsoever that the best rider in the world in 1977 was PC: his imperious performance in the Inter-Continental Final at White City (when he kept passing from behind - er, can't think therefore that gate positions mattered much to our Peter!); but of course a terrible injury befell him on the eve of travelling to Sweden for the Final. PC's closest rival was Olsen.

In Gothenberg the rains came with a ferocity I've never seen before with a meeting carrying on. Surely in such conditions anyone could win the Final - especially as home favourite Michanek like PC, was so badly injured he tooo had to lifted on and off his bike.

But actually it was the only WF when the top three was the top three riders of the era: Mauger, PC and Olsen..

 

Not the order we wanted but probably the best example ever of how there was a special breed of top rider capable despite a range of external circumstances of excelling on the night. The three of them would be creasing up with laughter at suggestions that gate positions had anything to do with that!

 

And before you say, yes I know I said PC was the best rider in the world in '77 but lost and trust me it was a near-tragedy that he lost out on that title, but the blood and guts and sheer excirtement of the indiv. WF was a price worth paying as this was the ultimate test... Is the closed-shop, cosiness of the SGP the ultimate test..? Not in anything like the same sense, no...

1977 Parsloes how that meeting was concluded god knows,Reading world team cup 1980 is the worst i have ever seen riders have to ride in that was bad.Collins was so unlucky i think Booey helped him that year on and off his bike horrible gash he would of now been a double world champion deserved to be.I supported Lee that year and he could of still won the title come his last ride.But that meeting i always remember john Boulger coming off the track was horrendous.But for that drain cover, in a micky mouse second half ride at belle vue that really cost Peter bigtime in his overall standing in history.But although the track was a deathtrap it was exciting right up until the last race.

[Grand Central]

Well common sense will tell's that if the race draw is changed then so will the race dynamic in each heat thus changeing the outcome of each heat and indeed the overrall result ..and with small margins in a one off world finals many of the results would not have been the same .

 

Wihout joining some sort of Sydney-Parsloes alliance against orion. I, personally, would just really want to learn and understand which particular World Championship Final it is that you feel was so influenced by the draw that you still feel strongly on the matter twenty or thirty years later.

Was there there one that you remember as being so influenced by the draw or are your making a a more general point that hasn't got one specific year to quote?

[Blazeaway]

You could say that about alot of riders, i just dont think Leigh had that killer instinct like say Crumpy.To me Leigh was still a great rider twice the rider in my opinion to Nicky Pedersen.It just wasnt meant to be for Leigh i dont think it was nerves or anything,

 

 

Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha etc etc.