Speedway Gp In Tatters !

[ImpartialOne]

Fair enough. I'm beaten.

You let me win though

[Humphrey Appleby]

Certainly the unseasonably cold weather on the night and the fact that it was live on Australian TV (which won't be the case in NZ) were contributing factors. As were the size and cost of the venue.

 

I don't really remember the weather being cited as an issue at the time, and the view of many was that the 20-25,000 (or whatever they actually got) largely met expectations.

 

A more likely problem was holding the GP in such a vast (and presumably not cheap) stadium, and in a city with limited speedway support. Australia is not like the UK where you can drive to a GP and back in a day, and I don't think the budget flight market had really taken off Down Under at that point.

 

It was frankly ill-conceived from the beginning, and it's astonishing that BSI ever thought it could be a goer. Going somewhere like Adelaide or Brisbane where there's bigger solo fanbases would have seemed more sensible, but I suppose that didn't fit with the grandiose plans of the time...

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Think there are a number of well documented cases.Ask Norbold.There was even one case of a rider failing to get his World Title because he actually refused to bung a rider a few quid(i think he turned down the offer if i remember rightly)and got beat in his last heat

 

It is disappointing to see this thread now take a direction where the old World Final system is being depicted as if completely tainted by corruption... There's no more evidence to say this is the case, than there is with the current system is there..? Why, when I dared to suggest that in one famous SGP race perhaps one rider MIGHT possibly not have tried just as hard as he might to keep a particular rider from passing him (with NO implication whatsoever of corruption..) I was pilloried for doing so; but now (ironic considering recent BSF events..) it seems fine to suggest that the whole previous system was crooked.

 

To base such an argument on some isolated and possibly mythological incidents, is like saying that relegation battles in football are fiddled because of the allegations made about Don Revie's Leeds back in the '60s; that match fixing happens throughout that game based on the imprisonment of Sheffield Wednesday's Tony Kay, Peter Swan and ‘Bronco’ Layne for doing so also in that decade; or that the dodgy dealings of far east bookmakers spread betting in Champions League Finals makes every result in that competition suspect... Of course one can do that, but it's a sorry state of affairs if it comes to that; and I think love or hate the old WF system, people do our sport no justice at all or the great stars from that era to make such glib comments that corruption was endemic back then...

[jimmy jimmy]

 

It wouldn't be half the competition it is without IMG. For a start we wouldn't be seeing GPs in places like Cardiff and Copenhagen, Sydney, NZ, etc., I doubt the presentation and atmosphere would be to the standard it is, big names from other sports would probably not take as much interest and possibly Sky would not be as involved. They may be out for what they can get (they ate running a business after all) but they have certainly given speedway an image to match some of the bigger sports.

[Humphrey Appleby]

Why, when I dared to suggest that in one famous SGP race perhaps one rider MIGHT possibly not have tried just as hard as he might to keep a particular rider from passing him (with NO implication whatsoever of corruption..) I was pilloried for doing so; but now (ironic considering recent BSF events..) it seems fine to suggest that the whole previous system was crooked.

 

You should know by now, that the SGP is close to perfection and that speedway only achieved true salvation when the BSI messiah came along...

[iris123]

It is disappointing to see this thread now take a direction where the old World Final system is being depicted as if completely tainted by corruption... There's no more evidence to say this is the case, than there is with the current system is there..? Why, when I dared to suggest that in one famous SGP race perhaps one rider MIGHT possibly not have tried just as hard as he might to keep a particular rider from passing him (with NO implication whatsoever of corruption..) I was pilloried for doing so; but now (ironic considering recent BSF events..) it seems fine to suggest that the whole previous system was crooked.

 

To base such an argument on some isolated and possibly mythological incidents, is like saying that relegation battles in football are fiddled because of the allegations made about Don Revie's Leeds back in the '60s; that match fixing happens throughout that game based on the imprisonment of Sheffield Wednesday's Tony Kay, Peter Swan and ‘Bronco’ Layne for doing so also in that decade; or that the dodgy dealings of far east bookmakers spread betting in Champions League Finals makes every result in that competition suspect... Of course one can do that, but it's a sorry state of affairs if it comes to that; and I think love or hate the old WF system, people do our sport no justice at all or the great stars from that era to make such glib comments that corruption was endemic back then...

Why do you always seem to over react?No-one is saying the old system was endemically corrupt and i haven't seen anyone saying the GP system is perfect.In fact there have been numerous posts from people defending the GP system that say "it isn't perfect,just better than the old system....."I would though think it harder to buy a GP title because of the far numerous amount of heats involved than it would be in a 5 heat(for each rider)World Final.And of course even the GPs are not without glib comment such as one or two of the Sky team talking about Sayfutdinovs engines a few years back or glib remarks about the Polish riders.....But i guess at the moment the evidence is more in favour of the GPs being clean.Who knows though what might come to light in decades to come?

[waiheke1]

Do you not recall the 1982 Inter-Continental Final in which Penhall admitted throwing his last race to help his fellow Americans?

 

Actually that was the overseas final. http://www.youtube.c...h?v=RlFmm7zTA9Q

The 82 inter-continental final saw Olsen and Gundersen allowing Petersen to finish ahead of them to earn him a run-off for the last spot.

Off the top of my head, I also recall Ermolenko allowing Hanock to pass him in an Overseas final in the early 90s (though he was far less open than Penhall about it).

 

Why, when I dared to suggest that in one famous SGP race perhaps one rider MIGHT possibly not have tried just as hard as he might to keep a particular rider from passing him (with NO implication whatsoever of corruption..) I was pilloried for doing so

 

Parsloes what you actually said was:

 

I've no problem with Hancock doing what he did but I do with Speedway fans burying their heads in the sand about what did happen...!!

 

I've watched the race again today after a long gap and there is not the slightest doubt in my mind that Hancock looks (er, WHY does he look...: does he do this every race..?, er, no..); checks out that it's the home rider, Harris (rather than Crump who he may have been expecting...); and as a result lets him past..

To be honest, it's as clear as the day is long that he did this

Though to be fair, you did retract afterwards.

 

But, as Iris states, no-one is saying that the old system was endemically corrupt, or the current system 100% pure. For my part, I raised this subject only because the current GP was accused of lacking credibility - whereas, IMHO, it has more credibility than the old system.

Edited November 29, 2011 by waihekeaces1

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

3. Speedway has 12 World Final meetings televised each season – giving far more visibility to the Speedway and general viewing public.

 

Hmm, but it's NOT 12 World Finals is it..? It's far more comparable to being around 9 or 10 'Inter Continental' or, er, 'Overseas' Finals - in other words meetings with great quality in terms of the riders in them, but only 'qualifying' rounds building to a bigger picture. Only if a meeting is going to be decisive in seeing riders head to head for the destiny of the actual world championship that night can a SGP be considered analgous to the old World Final..

 

All really rather ironic, as when it comes to League racing of course, our paymasters Sky have insisted we ditch the season-long format (tried and trusted for decades) with a sudden death play-off. Effectively League racing and the World Individual Championship have both changed fundamentally but in diametrically opposite directions!!

[WIE-JA]

Hmm, but it's NOT 12 World Finals is it..? It's far more comparable to being around 9 or 10 'Inter Continental' or, er, 'Overseas' Finals - in other words meetings with great quality in terms of the riders in them, but only 'qualifying' rounds building to a bigger picture. Only if a meeting is going to be decisive in seeing riders head to head for the destiny of the actual world championship that night can a SGP be considered analgous to the old World Final..

 

All really rather ironic, as when it comes to League racing of course, our paymasters Sky have insisted we ditch the season-long format (tried and trusted for decades) with a sudden death play-off. Effectively League racing and the World Individual Championship have both changed fundamentally but in diametrically opposite directions!!

 

How do work out that each GP round is the equivalent of the Overseas or Inter-continental qualifying events of old? Surely the GP challenge is more comparable. Each GP counts towards finding the overall champion so would be considered quite decisive in finding the World Champion.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

How do work out that each GP round is the equivalent of the Overseas or Inter-continental qualifying events of old? Surely the GP challenge is more comparable. Each GP counts towards finding the overall champion so would be considered quite decisive in finding the World Champion.

 

They are exactly like qualifiers, steps along the way to the ultimate title - they are certainly NOT in any way comparable with World Finals..!

[Chewbacca]

Indeed, they are not half full of hopeless Eastern Europeans on uncompetitive machinery like the old World Final's were

[WIE-JA]

They are exactly like qualifiers, steps along the way to the ultimate title - they are certainly NOT in any way comparable with World Finals..!

 

Just think of each GP round as an individual heat in an old style world final particularly the 2 day event at Amsterdam. NZ next year is hardly going to be comparable to a British Semi Final at Dudley Wood.

[Humphrey Appleby]

NZ next year is hardly going to be comparable to a British Semi Final at Dudley Wood.

 

I saw many qualifying rounds that were infinitely more exciting than most of the GPs. The British rounds were often amongst the best.

[stratton]

Indeed, they are not half full of hopeless Eastern Europeans on uncompetitive machinery like the old World Final's were

Did you see any of these supposingly hopeless Eastern Europeans? i see a few and enjoyed watching them ride.Ok the one off world final,qualification system seemed unfair but i think alot of them would of still qualified.

[iris123]

I saw many qualifying rounds that were infinitely more exciting than most of the GPs. The British rounds were often amongst the best.

Not sure what you are saying here......you mean that many of the qualifying rounds provided more exciting racing?That might be quite possible back in the old days as all the tracks were much better prepared and the riders were of a more even ability But more exciting from a fans point of view?If your favourite was in the line-up and in with a chance of course it would be more exciting than watching a GP where you have no favourite....But i went to at least one British semi Final at Plough Lane and i don't think the attendance featured in the top 5 meetings at Wimbledon that year,so what does that tell you?And as for the last bit.....just how many foreign rounds like the Swedish Final or a Continental meeting did you attend? It is all personal opinions,but i doubt many people would agree with you

[WIE-JA]

I saw many qualifying rounds that were infinitely more exciting than most of the GPs. The British rounds were often amongst the best.

 

I was thinking more of status. I've seen amateur meetings that have had better racing than some British Finals but the atmosphere and sense of occasion just isn't quite the same.

[Humphrey Appleby]

Did you see any of these supposingly hopeless Eastern Europeans? i see a few and enjoyed watching them ride.Ok the one off world final,qualification system seemed unfair but i think alot of them would of still qualified.

 

It's true that Intercontinental Final often had a stronger line-up than the World Final itself, but it's nothing that couldn't have been fixed by tweaking the qualifying system slightly,

 

That said, not all the Continental qualifiers were no hopers and some would have undoubtedly qualified in their own right even with a 'fairer' qualifying system.

[Humphrey Appleby]

I've seen amateur meetings that have had better racing than some British Finals but the atmosphere and sense of occasion just isn't quite the same.

 

Yes, but British Finals (even until quite late on) were often ridden in front of large crowds and with very strong line-ups.

[Humphrey Appleby]

Not sure what you are saying here......you mean that many of the qualifying rounds provided more exciting racing?

 

I think the knockout aspect of the qualifying rounds lead to more desperate and spectacular racing, especially as you got closer to the World Final. There was also the element of following your own team's riders round-by-round which added to the interest.

 

Of course there were rubbish qualifying rounds as well, especially those where nearly all the field went through. For example, the Commonwealth Final was usually a complete waste of time.

 

However, the British Final always seemed special, and I have quite good memories of Overseas Finals as well (more so than Intercontinental Finals). I have been to the odd Continental round, but I was less familiar with the riders and don't think I've ever seen a good speedway meeting in Germany (although I haven't in fairness seen many).

 

I must say that for me though, individual meetings are just a novelty diversion from the real business of team racing. They're one-dimensional in comparison, and too many would get boring.

[waiheke1]

Parsloes, I do agree that any individual GP is not quite the equivalent of the old World Final (though the standard of riders is higher, and all riders have something to ride for right down to the final heat.)

 

And I did used to love the old qualifying meetings – sometimes the racing was great, sometimes poor (just like any speedway competition), but always having that sense of anticipation about who would/wouldn’t qualify. And yes, the chance to cheer on riders from your club, other favourite riders or the occasional surprise packet (Paul Thorp's run in 86 springs to mind).

 

I disagree strongly however that each GP is only the equivalent of a qualifying meeting – as every single point earned counts to becoming World Champion.

 

IMHO, getting 12 meetings, all with a top quality line up and which all contribute towards who becomes world champion, is certainly an improvement in terms of a) exposure for the sport and giving speedway fans a quality viewing (if only they’d start televising it in NZ, instead of having to rely on t’interweb.)

 

 

Did you see any of these supposingly hopeless Eastern Europeans? i see a few and enjoyed watching them ride.Ok the one off world final,qualification system seemed unfair but i think alot of them would of still qualified.

 

Yes, I did. Obviously in the 60s and early 70s they were competitive (on home soil at least). But in the 80s, riders qualifying via continental final averaged 4 in the World Final (compared to inter-continental qualifiers who averages over 9.) The true Eastern Europeans (i.e Russians, Czechs, Poles etc.) actually averaged even lower than that, as Egon Muller boosted that continental qualifier average quite a chunk. And also bear in mind, that the lowest possible average that they could have had was 2 (as they had to at least beat each other!). Has there ever been a less competitive rider in a World Final than Starostin in 82 (perhaps Kroeze in 87)?It was reminiscent of Mark Crang or Bill Barrett at their “best.”

 

It's true that Intercontinental Final often had a stronger line-up than the World Final itself, but it's nothing that couldn't have been fixed by tweaking the qualifying system slightly,

 

That said, not all the Continental qualifiers were no hopers and some would have undoubtedly qualified in their own right even with a 'fairer' qualifying system.

 

They did tweak the system for the world finals 91-94, where there were two semi finals. Continental riders constituted 8 of the qualifiers for the World Finals over that period, so an average of 2 per year, although only half of those were true “Eastern Europeans” (others being German/Italian). I would expect that had this been in place in the 80s the result would have been similar (most years would have seen Muller plus one other I would guess). And even with this system , they were given more spaces in the semi-finals (14 out of 32 spots) than they deserved on merit - had that not been the case I think you’d have seen at most 1 a year on average.