Speedway Gp In Tatters !

[ImpartialOne]

With all due respect IF the GPs were so great how come it's under the GP system that the decline you so accurately depict has most acclerated under...?!

 

You may well be right that we would never see massive crowds at a WF again, though frankly I'd bet my house on more people attending a WF at Cardiff/Wembley/Olympic Stadium than currently attend the British GP... After all, it wouldn't be less would it; and whether you like it or not, there is a sizeable number of people who are Speedway die-hards who are utterly disillusioned with the relative pointlessness of the early round British SGP...

 

Also the old system can no more be 'proven' "unfair and wrong" than the current one! What id DID deliver was a superb one-off night of excitement which frankly is utterly lacking in the multi-round system. AND it allowed those with the guts and quality to have a fair crack of the whip of

breaking into it..

So much wrong with this post.

 

Nothing meaningless about an early British GP but next year it is towards the end of the calendar anyway so that's irrelevant.

 

Pretty safe bet to put your house on an event that will never take place

 

You still keep saying over and over again that there are so many riders out there who would have a chance to be world champion if only they could break into it, yet you've so far never given even one example despite me constantly asking you to, so without any examples to back up your theory it can only be assumed there are none.

 

I suppose the only response I can expect is another claim that I've missed the point and some random comment about pro-GP posters hurling abuse

Edited November 20, 2011 by ImpartialOne

[Gearhead]

With all due respect IF the GPs were so great how come it's under the GP system that the decline you so accurately depict has most acclerated under...?!

 

You may well be right that we would never see massive crowds at a WF again, though frankly I'd bet my house on more people attending a WF at Cardiff/Wembley/Olympic Stadium than currently attend the British GP... After all, it wouldn't be less would it; and whether you like it or not, there is a sizeable number of people who are Speedway die-hards who are utterly disillusioned with the relative pointlessness of the early round British SGP...

 

Also the old system can no more be 'proven' "unfair and wrong" than the current one! What id DID deliver was a superb one-off night of excitement which frankly is utterly lacking in the multi-round system. AND it allowed those with the guts and quality to have a fair crack of the whip of breaking into it..

Wow,thats a very bold statement regarding attendance,I loved the old one off finals but from the last Wembley through to Bradford the decline was very big so I disagree with your statement,also if the early British GP is so pointless it wouldn't attract so many people would it?

 

These GPs versus WF arguments are all apples and oranges anyway,both systems are flawed but I don't think the one off system would work today,the Qualifiers would most probably be quite poorly attended and just the 1 "big" World championship meeting wouldn't personally have any more attraction than a GP would,I'm sure I speak for many,also I suppose I have 10 chances to plan a trip rather than 1.

 

The WF format,if tried again may well produce a line up noticeably weaker too,riders would often progress by drawing a favoured track and the biggest flaw of all,reaching the final and not meeting the best in the qualifiers.The average system will always win for me I'm afraid,its like saying who the best rider in the British League was,the guy top of the averages or the winner of the WF,One meeting,one track,as good as he was and taking nothing away from him but do you honestly think Andy Smith would have been British Champion so many times if it wasn't held at Coventry? Or how about if one of the semis was at Exeter? The Final may well of had a few surprises in there,or indeed had a few favourites missing.There has always been talk of money changing hands in the WF's and cheating with fuel actually admitted,the series now has very tight rules to eradicate any foul play now

 

Also anyone CAN qualify for the GPs just the same as the WF,if you are good enough,you'll get in,as I said before I loved the old Finals and can remember walking up to Wembley amongst thousands of fans and witnessing that magical night,but times have changed and things moved on,I'm also much older too,and seen a lot of Speedway since then,you never get that buzz that you did as a youngster,ask that to a kid of 10 at Cardiff which Speedway was best in 30 or 40 years time,at the end of the day,apples and oranges again

[The White Knight]

No one is saying that the gp sysytem is perfect far from it ....what is wrong is the over 50 's going on about the one off World Final's what was one off the most unfair systems of all time as due when you when got to the final 6 or 7 of the 16 should not have been there So much for your sense of fair play .

 

People who don't like Gp's are all the same type ..they hate the play offs they want second halfs back, love one off world finals and are over 50 and had zero idea about the money side of the sport .

 

 

Well orion - you certainly got me pegged. I fill ALL of your criteria apart from the MONEY bit.

 

I think that I DO actually have some idea about the money side of things, the question is - DO YOU???

 

I would just like to point out that ALL the money taken from the old 'One Off' British World Final was ploughed back into British Speedway. I am sure that BSI/IMG will be quite happy with the way things are at present - NO MONEY goes to British Speedway - it goes in to the already bulging coffers of the aforementioned Company. The monies from the old World Final benefitted Tracks and British youngsters.

 

I can't exactly remember (my age orion) the year that the GPs actually started - BUT - I dare bet that it was about the time the steady decline in British Speedway commenced.

 

Remember orion - some of us may be getting on a bit - BUT - there is no substitute for experience.

 

orion - you forgot the Double Points Tactical Ride Rule - I HATE that too..

 

Edit: To reflect the fact that mickthemuppet has already mentioned about the destination of the money from World Finals/GPs.

Edited November 20, 2011 by The White Knight

[orion]

Well orion - you certainly got me pegged. I fill ALL of your criteria apart from the MONEY bit.

 

I think that I DO actually have some idea about the money side of things, the question is - DO YOU???

 

I would just like to point out that ALL the money taken from the old 'One Off' British World Final was ploughed back into British Speedway. I am sure that BSI/IMG will be quite happy with the way things are at present - NO MONEY goes to British Speedway - it goes in to the already bulging coffers of the aforementioned Company. The monies from the old World Final benefitted Tracks and British youngsters.

 

I can't exactly remember (my age orion) the year that the GPs actually started - BUT - I dare bet that it was about the time the steady decline in British Speedway commenced.

 

Remember orion - some of us may be getting on a bit - BUT - there is no substitute for experience.

 

Edit: To reflect the fact that mickthemuppet has already mentioned about the destination of the money from World Finals/GP.

 

 

Did the money go where you reckon it went ? where it was suppose to go and where it went are two diffrent things all together, i think most people knew that most of money went into certain peoples back pockets rather than the naive idea that it all went back into British speedway .

 

As for you and the money side you show how way out of touch you were by not understanding why there is a need for play offs

[PHILIPRISING]

IF you could turn the clock back how often do you think a World Final would be held in Great Britain? Every five years, six, seven?

[Gearhead]

Well orion - you certainly got me pegged. I fill ALL of your criteria apart from the MONEY bit.

 

I think that I DO actually have some idea about the money side of things, the question is - DO YOU???

 

I would just like to point out that ALL the money taken from the old 'One Off' British World Final was ploughed back into British Speedway. I am sure that BSI/IMG will be quite happy with the way things are at present - NO MONEY goes to British Speedway - it goes in to the already bulging coffers of the aforementioned Company. The monies from the old World Final benefitted Tracks and British youngsters.

 

I can't exactly remember (my age orion) the year that the GPs actually started - BUT - I dare bet that it was about the time the steady decline in British Speedway commenced.

 

Remember orion - some of us may be getting on a bit - BUT - there is no substitute for experience.

 

orion - you forgot the Double Points Tactical Ride Rule - I HATE that too..

 

Edit: To reflect the fact that mickthemuppet has already mentioned about the destination of the money from World Finals/GPs.

Again,the decline was well on its way before 1995,but yes the revenue from a World Final every few years would definately have benefitted British Speedway,I've said before that this is what is needed from the current series,it's wrong that it doesn't happen,and riders' prizemoney too for that matter

 

One thing to consider though is that during our last Final at Bradford we had a completely differrent BSPA mindset to now no doubt which might have dealt with that revenue in another way perhaps Also would they have promoted the big meeting to somewhere like Cardiff or would we still see it at places like Coventry??

[Humphrey Appleby]

IF you could turn the clock back how often do you think a World Final would be held in Great Britain? Every five years, six, seven?

 

Every 3 or 4. Only the GPs in Britain, Poland and Sweden/Denmark get serious crowds.

[BigFatDave]

Every 3 or 4. Only the GPs in Britain, Poland and Sweden/Denmark get serious crowds.

Geez, I'd hate to go to GPs that have serious crowds - all the ones I'm fortunate enough to have attended have been in front of happy crowds.

 

(Edit - we're talking happy as a parrot here, of course! - this no grog rule in Poland is a worry, but; thank the lord for Hipflask Hotel!)

Edited November 21, 2011 by BigFatDave

[waiheke1]

, but at least acknowledge that there's been a massive change and that for some it's NOT been a change for the better...

Happy to acknowledge that – and hopefully you’re also willing to acknowledge that many believe ts a change for the better,

 

Speedway currently has a credibility problem with the British Public at large. One of the reasons for this is the pathetic way that the current GP System is run. If you are one of the select few, you are fine - just look at Chris Harris as proof of this. I have nothing against Harris - but - his place in the GPs next Season looks very dodgy to me. I am a regular Speedway Supporter - how will this look to an outsider?

Credibility problem – or visibility problem? Personally, I would have thought that the old WC, where you had riders throwing races to allow compatriots to qualify, to get a more favourable draw in the next round, or because they were being paid a bung to so do so, not to mention World Finals missing the sports’ biggest names, would cause more of a credibility issue . But, if you think certain people being selected to take part (common practice in many other sports), causes more of an issue, you are entitled to that opinion.

 

I think there is one strong argument in favour of the old WC. And that is that the one-off final had a certain atmosphere, magic, whatever you want to call it, that the current GO does not have. I can understand that, and that’s a valid enough reason (even if finals were often tarnished by missing leading riders, porrly prepared tracks etc.) to be in favour of a return.

However, I’ve yet to see any other persuasive arguments for it. Typically the arguments presented are:

1. It’s easier to stay in than to qualify. Except its not, is it. Do you think any of the three who came in through the qualifiers this season were capable of finishing in the top 8 of the GP? Really?

2. There are riders selected to take part. I agree, maybe there are two many spots. However, this has proved a more effective method of getting the best riders into the field than qualifying. Look at the record each year of the “permanent wildcards” vs the “qualifiers” and consistently the “wildcards” (with the possible exception of the “token Brits/s) have performed better. And lets face it, the awarding of one spot to the best British rider (determined on subjective, but nonetheless probably correct criteria) is hardly worse than the handing of 5 spots to continental finalists in the old system (Question: If Henry Kroezewas not Dutch, would he have ever qualified for a World Final?

3. The riders aren’t paid enough. True, I think we all agree with that. BUT, if you think riders were better paid in the old system, you are sorely mistaken. And its hardly just a Speedway issue that riders earn better money playing for their clubs than they do in the sport’s showcase event (think Football, cricket, rugby etc.) Its also not the fault of the GP that the Polish league has brought in their resttiction. If the BL back in the 70s/80s had brought in a “one World can be Finalist per team rule” you can be sure that any rider other than those with stong final prospects would have chosen their club contract.

4. Riders qualify the prior year. (I guess we’ll ignore the fact that the Australian Final used to be held in the yearof the World Final that qualification was for). I can see that this could be viewed as an issue to some extent. However, there have been only a couple of instances where riders who may have come close to the title have not been participating in that year’s GP event. Compare that to the old WC where at least every second year you’d be missing one of the leading candidates due to injury, one bad meeting etc. There are also plenty of examples from other sport where qualification occurs the prior year- footballs Premiership, Champions League, world Cup etc spring to mind – note Parsloes that the latter are both Knock out competitions.

5. GP is to blame for the demise of British speedway. I think the lack of foresight of the BSPA when times were good (and land was cheap) is the number one cause. Secondly, the fall of the iron curtain, which saw Poland establish a league which could afford to pay the world’s best riders more than the British clubs can, is the other key reason for the decline.

There are many arguments in favour of the GP, but I think the three strongest are:

1. The best rider in the World wins the GP that year. I can’t think of any exceptions to this.

2. The riders competing in the GP are generally representative of the top 15 in the world (I’d say normally at least 12/15). This compared to the old WC where would suggest you’d only ever get say 8/16 of the World’s best in the final (I will give you 1981 as a possible exception to this rule).

3. Speedway has 12 World Final meetings televised each season – giving far more visibility to the Speedway and general viewing public.

Personally, I think points 1 and 2 cannot be rationally argued against, and I think these two capture the essence of what a World Championship should achieve.

[MattK]

IF you could turn the clock back how often do you think a World Final would be held in Great Britain? Every five years, six, seven?

Eight.

 

Poland, UK, Poland, Denmark, Poland, Sweden, Poland, Australia, Poland, back to UK

[Gearhead]

Eight.

 

Poland, UK, Poland, Denmark, Poland, Sweden, Poland, Australia, Poland, back to UK

 

I know what you're saying but I wouldn't go quite that far is say every 5 years,Poland has become the most prominent league and I'm sure they'd get a good share of it,most of the looking back is definately through rose tinted glasses,we are at the right place having a GP system but I dont go much on the BSI/IMG

[ImpartialOne]

I know what you're saying but I wouldn't go quite that far is say every 5 years,Poland has become the most prominent league and I'm sure they'd get a good share of it,most of the looking back is definately through rose tinted glasses,we are at the right place having a GP system but I dont go much on the BSI/IMG

It wouldn't be half the competition it is without IMG. For a start we wouldn't be seeing GPs in places like Cardiff and Copenhagen, Sydney, NZ, etc., I doubt the presentation and atmosphere would be to the standard it is, big names from other sports would probably not take as much interest and possibly Sky would not be as involved. They may be out for what they can get (they ate running a business after all) but they have certainly given speedway an image to match some of the bigger sports.

[WIE-JA]

Eight.

 

Poland, UK, Poland, Denmark, Poland, Sweden, Poland, Australia, Poland, back to UK

Probably wouldn't happen in England at all. It would require the BSPA to apply to host the event and they probably wouldn't bother. After all they gave up the rights to promote the GP round in Britain.

[Humphrey Appleby]

For a start we wouldn't be seeing GPs in places like Cardiff and Copenhagen, Sydney, NZ, etc.

 

I think I must have missed that regular GP in Sydney...

 

You could also say that BSI have taken the sport to the well known destinations of Krsko, Daugavpils, Malilla, Gorican, Terenzano and Vojens. I know they're places I always dreamed of visiting when I was growing up...

[MattK]

Probably wouldn't happen in England at all. It would require the BSPA to apply to host the event and they probably wouldn't bother. After all they gave up the rights to promote the GP round in Britain.

They'd also have to start seeding riders straight through to the finals, as can you imagine a world final at Wembley with no British riders. It would be half empty.

[ImpartialOne]

I think I must have missed that regular GP in Sydney...

I didn't say it was regular. However, the reason there has only been one GP in Australia is not down to IMG but the fact that nobody in Oz is prepared to host the meeting.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Happy to acknowledge that – and hopefully you’re also willing to acknowledge that many believe ts a change for the better,...

 

1. It’s easier to stay in than to qualify. Except its not, is it. Do you think any of the three who came in through the qualifiers this season were capable of finishing in the top 8 of the GP? Really?

 

II do readily acknowledge that. And I appreciate your well-presented and constructive arguments. Though have to say I'm puzzled at this sudden trend by posters on here to start describing the old system as riddled with corruption, thrown races etc. Really..? I think these are slurs people should be careful to repeat especially as no-one's backing them up with any facts!

 

The one point I think is highly debatable in your argument is (surprise, surprise!) the one numbered, er, (1).

Surely this IS the point... You're in the GP along with 14 others; you only realistically need to finish top 10 or 11 to remain in it. The fact that the three qualifiers are not as high a standard as the others already in it does absolutely mean that for the existing top 8 or 10 or 11 (or whatever number keep their place each year...) it is easy to stay in...

 

I know what people will say, well these clearly are then the riders who deserve to be in it... Okay but it doesn't stop it being an absolute fact that it IS for these riders a relatively easy thing to stay within the GP series..

 

Look at the last two years, the only two survivors from the very first year 1995 have won the last two World titles! Hardly an advert for the GPs encouraging new talent. And yes I agree both were without doubt the best in the world so deserve to be champs but as I say there does need to be a future without them and I can't see the SGP currently giving us that future...

[Bruiser McHuge]

i was brought up on the one day World Final and personally attended 8 of them in England and Europe...and i loved every one of them...but i could see it's gloss and appeal going down year on year...crowds were falling , the media coverage was almost non existent and the whole aura of winning a World Final seemed to grow lesser each year i thought...Havvy winning was hardly seen in the same light as PC winning his title..times were changing...not the riders fault but i think change was needed.

As an outsider now looking in i would say that the GP's have brought a much more professional look to the sport..it has made the riders look far more professional and the whole scene looks good and much more appealing to potential sponsors.

You cannot go and compare to World Finals in the 60's and 70's ..those days will never return and certainly wouldn't return if a one off World Final was brought back

So the GP's have been good i would say...not perfect , but a big step forward from where speedway was heading..it's just a shame that the Polish League situation has put a spanner in the works and i don't think that that is good for the series and could cause problems ahead if those rules continue.

[ImpartialOne]

Though have to say I'm puzzled at this sudden trend by posters on here to start describing the old system as riddled with corruption, thrown races etc. Really..? I think these are slurs people should be careful to repeat especially as no-one's backing them up with any facts!

Do you not recall the 1982 Inter-Continental Final in which Penhall admitted throwing his last race to help his fellow Americans? Or the bribery scandal in 1984 which led to a World Championship ban in 1985 for Simon Wigg?

[Humphrey Appleby]

However, the reason there has only been one GP in Australia is not down to IMG but the fact that nobody in Oz is prepared to host the meeting.

 

Nothing to do with their staging fees then, or levels of financial support to ship competitors and officials halfway around the world?