Vince Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 Yes and the old Word Final guaranteed home representation too... But none of these nit-picking and entirely obvious points are actually a DEFENCE of the system used in the SGPs which as I say you can like as much as you want, but is clearly deeply flawed from the purity of a proper World Championship point of view... In my opinion not as flawed as a system that can deprive the best rider in the World a championship because of one minor breakdown or one poor start. That can, and did, happen with the old system. The one thing the GP's need to do imo is pay very good rates so that every rider in the world can afford to be there and attempts to qualify. As things are riders can't afford to compete at what is supposed to be the pinnacle of the sport because it might well cost them to be there while they can make a profit at their 'day' job. I believe the GP series is one of the best things that ave ever happened in Speedway. Of course it could be imprved but I see it as a huge improvement over the one day finals (of which I attended several, fantastic occassions but 5 or 6 minutes racing shouldn't produce a World Champion) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 No you choose to used other sports as an example as how they are true world championship events in your eyes, as i have show you that is not the case . Not sure how they were obvious when you missed them out when trying to make your example ..the bottom line if you look closely at any sport the you will find it deeply flawed as a proper world championship just like the one off World Final was . No - you just choose to pick and choose from the arguments I make. If you look back to the references to the likes of the FIFA World Cup and Wimbledon I'm talking about them being KNOCK-OUT competitions as opposed to leagues... Do you understand the difference..?!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 In my opinion not as flawed as a system that can deprive the best rider in the World a championship because of one minor breakdown or one poor start. That can, and did, happen with the old system. The one thing the GP's need to do imo is pay very good rates so that every rider in the world can afford to be there and attempts to qualify. As things are riders can't afford to compete at what is supposed to be the pinnacle of the sport because it might well cost them to be there while they can make a profit at their 'day' job. I believe the GP series is one of the best things that ave ever happened in Speedway. Of course it could be imprved but I see it as a huge improvement over the one day finals (of which I attended several, fantastic occassions but 5 or 6 minutes racing shouldn't produce a World Champion) Er, well 5 or 6 minutes DIDN'T produce a World Champion as they had to get to the WF in the first place... But yes, they were cut throat and sudden death... But do you know what, that's what sport (especially high speed sport...) is all about.. One slip and you're out... Try asking Usain Bolt about that... At the end of the day in sport there are 'league' type events and there are sudden death ones... In Athletics they too have a GP series and one is champion of that by proving consistency but funny enough the titles most remembered and most coveted and most high presitge are the sudden death ones... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 When do the F1 qualification rounds start ? Er, when have I EVER defended F1 or suggested that is in any way something to defend..! On the contrary what's fundamentally wrong about the SGP is it's trying to be like F1 which is a MASSIVE step backwards.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 Er, when have I EVER defended F1 or suggested that is in any way something to defend..! On the contrary what's fundamentally wrong about the SGP is it's trying to be like F1 which is a MASSIVE step backwards.. Of course not the last think we want is it to get as popular as F1 is What we need is to back to to one off world final watched by 500 people with no tv coverage to keep a few over 50's happy . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpartialOne Posted November 19, 2011 Report Share Posted November 19, 2011 On the contrary what's fundamentally wrong about the SGP is it's trying to be like F1 which is a MASSIVE step backwards.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Of course not the last think we want is it to get as popular as F1 is What we need is to back to to one off world final watched by 500 people with no tv coverage to keep a few over 50's happy . Er, it was you not me earlier using F1 as a negative example... Make your mind up..!! So, notwithstanding that, you clearly believe that just because the massively hyped F1 series gets the TV viewing figures it does, that this instantly means it must by definition be far better than Speedway do you..? I think there are many of this Forum who'd disagree with that.. But if you do think that fair enough... Go and watch that sport then!! Glad to see btw, that you have to resort to nonsense again to keep your end up... World Finals watched by "500 people"..!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Parsloes,you say some people like the new system,some don't.Fair enough you don't like it.But there isn't really a decent argument against using a series of meetings to find a World Champion.And any rider has in theory a chance of qualifying.It is down to the individual Federations to decide how they decide who they nominate.In Denmark they use(i think still)the results from the Danish Final and also Danish U19/21 Finals to decide who they nominate for the World and Euro Champs....I do remember seeing something from the FIM asking Federations to only nominate riders who were at a certain level.Pretty well every system has flaws.Look at the Olympics and because of limits on Countries it means that some of the best athletes don't get a chance to compete.Is that good,just so you can get a runner or swimmer from a backwater country who lags way behind?It is hard to argue against the GP selection system,because as soon as one rider drops out it is pretty damn hard to find anyone outside the GPs who could come in and do a decent job of attempting to get into the top 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpartialOne Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 I'm wracking my brain trying to think of all these riders who, over the past 16 years, have not become world champion due to the metaphorical iron curtain surrounding the series. Can anyone help? Parsloes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Hmmmm I do though remember when one of the greatest Athletes ever failed to make the Olympics 100m because he finished 4th in the US trials Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gearhead Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 The GP definately needs a shake up,Ward for example has the tools and set up in place to take part,bikes in England,Sweden,and Poland,also mechanics,transport etc,he has great equipment,the same as Holder,great sponsorship,never really wanted for much since he's been here,not taking anything away from him and his talents,and young too,he could easily contest the series,it'd be a tougher season but he's chosen the more lucrative Polish deal,and who can blame the guy? If the GP series paid better I'm sure more riders would persue it.The economic downturn has affected Polish Speedway now which has obviously complicated the Gps,and unfortunately it seems that we may always see lesser riders competing,with little chance of success,same as MOTO GP,F1,MX1,WSB,BSB etc etc. The old one off Finals will probably never return now,they were very flawed too,corrupt even,according to some,personally I like the idea of a multi-round series but not the BS around it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Er, it was you not me earlier using F1 as a negative example... Make your mind up..!! So, notwithstanding that, you clearly believe that just because the massively hyped F1 series gets the TV viewing figures it does, that this instantly means it must by definition be far better than Speedway do you..? I think there are many of this Forum who'd disagree with that.. But if you do think that fair enough... Go and watch that sport then!! Glad to see btw, that you have to resort to nonsense again to keep your end up... World Finals watched by "500 people"..!! I was useing F1 as a postive F1 gets more viewing figures because it's hyped but it's not better because people on a speedway forum reckon speedway is better :rofl: . And you go on about people talking nosense :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 No you choose to used other sports as an example as how they are true world championship events in your eyes, as i have show you that is not the case . Not sure how they were obvious when you missed them out when trying to make your example ..the bottom line if you look closely at any sport the you will find it deeply flawed as a proper world championship just like the one off World Final was . There were flaws in the old one off World Final Qualication yes - BUT - as I have said many times at least anyone COULD and sometimes DID qualify. Currently there is a debate as to who to 'award' a place to in the Speedway GPs. Are you seriously arguing that this is a FAIR and morally JUST way of organising a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. Speedway currently has a credibility problem with the British Public at large. One of the reasons for this is the pathetic way that the current GP System is run. If you are one of the select few, you are fine - just look at Chris Harris as proof of this. I have nothing against Harris - but - his place in the GPs next Season looks very dodgy to me. I am a regular Speedway Supporter - how will this look to an outsider? At a time when Speedway support is dwindling - it is things like this (and there are others things too) that need addressing. We British are renowned for our sense of 'Fair Play'. Perhaps if we can get back to that - things may begin to improve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIE-JA Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Er, when have I EVER defended F1 or suggested that is in any way something to defend..! On the contrary what's fundamentally wrong about the SGP is it's trying to be like F1 which is a MASSIVE step backwards.. :rofl: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 I'm wracking my brain trying to think of all these riders who, over the past 16 years, have not become world champion due to the metaphorical iron curtain surrounding the series. Can anyone help? Parsloes? Easy question to answer. Hans Andersen in 2006. In form of his life twice won a GP as a 'wild card'... If he'd be in the tournament from the start would very likely indeed have been the champion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 There were flaws in the old one off World Final Qualication yes - BUT - as I have said many times at least anyone COULD and sometimes DID qualify. Speedway currently has a credibility problem with the British Public at large. One of the reasons for this is the pathetic way that the current GP System is run. . We British are renowned for our sense of 'Fair Play'. Perhaps if we can get back to that - things may begin to improve. I would say one of the problems in the old system was the fact that anyone could and often did qualify for the World Final.That and the fact that any race could and possibly was bought for money was also a big factor in the problem and with the sports credibility with the British public.Bad publicity of that sort and of course sex,drugs and rock n roll.....well some things don't change there What can be fairer than the best riders riding for the World title i ask you?Certainly not a system where some of them have been left out for others who have had an easier route.And then the crown being won by someone passing a brown envelope filled with dollars to another rider or winning because someone had a bit of bad luck in one heat.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 (edited) There were flaws in the old one off World Final Qualication yes - BUT - as I have said many times at least anyone COULD and sometimes DID qualify. Currently there is a debate as to who to 'award' a place to in the Speedway GPs. Are you seriously arguing that this is a FAIR and morally JUST way of organising a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. Speedway currently has a credibility problem with the British Public at large. One of the reasons for this is the pathetic way that the current GP System is run. If you are one of the select few, you are fine - just look at Chris Harris as proof of this. I have nothing against Harris - but - his place in the GPs next Season looks very dodgy to me. I am a regular Speedway Supporter - how will this look to an outsider? At a time when Speedway support is dwindling - it is things like this (and there are others things too) that need addressing. We British are renowned for our sense of 'Fair Play'. Perhaps if we can get back to that - things may begin to improve. No one is saying that the gp sysytem is perfect far from it ....what is wrong is the over 50 's going on about the one off World Final's what was one off the most unfair systems of all time as due when you when got to the final 6 or 7 of the 16 should not have been there So much for your sense of fair play . People who don't like Gp's are all the same type ..they hate the play offs they want second halfs back, love one off world finals and are over 50 and had zero idea about the money side of the sport . Edited November 20, 2011 by orion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Speedway currently has a credibility problem with the British Public at large. One of the reasons for this is the pathetic way that the current GP System is run. If you are one of the select few, you are fine - just look at Chris Harris as proof of this. I have nothing against Harris - but - his place in the GPs next Season looks very dodgy to me. I am a regular Speedway Supporter - how will this look to an outsider? In general I don't think the 'British Public at large' has any idea Speedway still exists let alone who rides in the Gp's. I only know one person who watches the GP's but wouldn't be considered a Speedway fan anyway and he would have no idea how the riders got their place in there and care even less. As far as he knows he is watching the best Speedway riders in the world, same as Moto GP which is generally accepted as being the best riders - and not one of them qualified! I can't think of a single person who hasn't been included in the GP's who had a realistic chance at a championship, at least not under the much fairer GP system Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpartialOne Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Easy question to answer. Hans Andersen in 2006. In form of his life twice won a GP as a 'wild card'... If he'd be in the tournament from the start would very likely indeed have been the champion. And why wasn't he in it from the start? Because he failed to qualify. What you're saying is the same as Alan Grahame in the 1984 World Final. He scored 5 from 2. Had he been in the starting 16 he could have been World Champion but he wasn't because he didn't qualify. Is Hans Andersen your best example? If so it shows how weak your point is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted November 20, 2011 Report Share Posted November 20, 2011 Easy question to answer. Hans Andersen in 2006. In form of his life twice won a GP as a 'wild card'... If he'd be in the tournament from the start would very likely indeed have been the champion. Hans, the guy who averaged less per GP than the World Champion Jason Crump. And once Crumpy won the title he pretty much stopped scoring that season. I could be wrong but I think that was the most dominant season ever by a rider in the GP's, Crumpy was phenominal. Admittedly Has was good but Crumpy more so. A better argument would have been Mark Loram in 1999. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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