Next Issue Of Classic Speedway - Oct 2011

[BigFatDave]

Actually it's quite an anti-climax. It doesn't say what BFD says in the post that started this thread off.

So it's not an article by Ian Hoskins?

[Grand Central]

So it's not an article by Ian Hoskins?

 

It is an article by Ian Hoskins to which he refers to the ongoing debate about his father but adds only a couple of very short paragraphs of his own comment on the 1923 question. There is no new information divulged.

 

The quote from Mr Hoskins that you gave at the beginning of this thread seemed to promise much more.

 

Thankfully, Mr Hoskins deals with whole matter in a rather relaxed manner and does not make any assertions about his father inventing speedway at all. He prefers to look upon Johnnie's role as the man who provided continuity with the pioneering days and on to the world wide spread of the sport.

 

This may or may not lead to an entirely different debate!

Edited October 28, 2011 by Grand Central

[norbold]

I've just received a copy of the latest issue of Classic Speedway. Did you know there is an article in there by Ian Hoskins about his father, Johnnie. It makes very interesting reading.....

 

 

So it's not an article by Ian Hoskins?

 

?

[Grand Central]

?

 

Perhaps it is best to leave Jack and Dave out of the debate for the moment until they have had the opportunity of reading Ian Hoskins article.

 

For those that have had the chance of the reading it ... don't you find it rather surprising that Ian Hoskins didn't jump to defend the creationalist argument for his father as others have done on this thread.

 

Instead, he seems to have taken the position of trying to carve out a new, rather more esoteric, place for Johnnie where he was a facilitator moving speedway from it's rather vague indeteriminate origins to the more certain european narrative with with we are all familiar.

 

This is a rather new perception of Johnnie's role, is it not?

[BigFatDave]

?

Maybe you should revisit my post and see what I actually commented on, rather than going down the red herring route once again, then you wouldn't be surprised at all.

[norbold]

You commented on my post that said, "Actually it's quite an anti-climax. It doesn't say what BFD says in the post that started this thread off."

 

What do you think the "it's" in the first sentence and the "It" in the second sentence refer to given that I had already said, "I've just received a copy of the latest issue of Classic Speedway. Did you know there is an article in there by Ian Hoskins about his father, Johnnie. It makes very interesting reading....."?

[kennylane]

This has been a great debate but at the end of the day nothing has been proved or disproved.

[Nigel]

Hi a good evening to one and all

 

David you still have this fixation about Red herrings arnt you supposed to see pink elephants

 

As it seems to be the fashion to quote mags books etc, may I quote the following?

 

I have just dug out my copy of Tom Stenners book "Thrilling the Million"

(The American version) so not sure of the original publication date. but this one is 1947.

 

Tom was Speedway editor of the Daily Mail.

 

And I quote verbatim:-

"How it all Started"

 

There is a widespread Impression that Speedway originated in Australia, and if this is not altogether a fallacy it is certainly an exaggeration of the truth. Long before the sport was introduced to the Commonwealth there was motorcycle racing on Dirt and Board tracks in the United states..............

 

(Further on, Tom writes)

It was Australia, however, who gave us speedway racing as we know it today. No one Individual was responsible, It was more or less a combination of circumstances that indicated the possibilities of a new sport. -:end quote)

 

Tom Stenner refers to JH as an outstanding 'personality' in the sport not promoter.

 

I note in Cyril Mays' Book Ride it' The complete book of speedway, he gives no credence to JH and talks of Maldwyn Jones and the American Dirt Tracks. I quote:- The general belief that speedway racing originated in Australia is certainly a fallacy. -:end quote

 

For futher reading I suggest "The Speedway Star" 13th March 2010 page 26. Enjoy

[Nigel]

Awwww, that'll put an end to all the efforts of the amateur historians' brigade - that means we'll hear no more red herrings - not metaphors, Nigel, (it HAD to be a 'Nigel') - about the Duke of Denbigh and Evolutionists v Creationists, etc, and the discussion can get back to where it started, about what Johnnie Hoskins actually, and provably, DID. He organised a rough-and-ready bunch of rural rogues and roustabouts and started promoting professional motorcycle racing meetings on a regular basis; the result of which is today what we know as SPEEDWAY.

As I said in my first post, something which so many seem to have conveniently ignored in order to unload their vitriol and put their own slanted, jaundiced, condescending viewpoint across; Johnnie Hoskins is the Godfather of SPEEDWAY.

 

You miserable old git

[Nigel]

BFD

 

Will you please tell me what JH did and how you are going to prove it ?

 

do you have his CV ?

Edited October 30, 2011 by Nigel

[Nigel]

So who did open Odsal to Speedway then Norbold if it was not Johnny Hoskins

 

JH may have opened Odsal ...but not with his own money

[BigFatDave]

You miserable old git

Another brilliant contribution to the debate.

[iris123]

This has been a great debate but at the end of the day nothing has been proved or disproved.

I tend to disagree on that.But i guess Jack favours the Eddie Izzard "no flag,no country" view,only with plaques and speedway instead

[Nigel]

Another brilliant contribution to the debate.

 

wow what a statement...... dave I see your sense of humour is still intact

Edited October 30, 2011 by Nigel

[Nigel]

I tend to disagree on that.But i guess Jack favours the Eddie Izzard "no flag,no country" view,only with plaques and speedway instead

 

[Nigel]

The following has been passed on to me, it is not research of mine, but I offer it for the appraisal of the discerning folk following this saga.

 

While browsing through some back numbers of the Speedway Star I found this headline

 

"The men who started speedway,"

 

A full page, without a creditation, Paul Parish was the editor, so we will hold him accountable, The appeared article on 11/2/1966.

 

The article in brief , is saying that JHS is researching a new book assumably Speedway Walkabout, and he had to do a lot of research, he contacted the New South Wales Morning Herald in a plea for information [ so you see he was not relying on his memory!]

 

JHS is reported to have recieved a reply from Bill Crampton who rode in the first meeting.

 

Bills letter implies that Maitland resident Len Upfold, a member of the Hamilton motor cycle club, had a vision of motorcycles racing under lights.

 

Len approached JHS, with a view to motorcycles racing at the Maitland showground. JHS then invited the motor cycle club to the showground on a sunday morning, date not given to try out the track

 

Riders were Bill Crampton, Les Upfold, George Ross, Andy Eyre, Bill Cogan and Claude Rankin. reference is made to JHS starting on a Triumph. Riders were timed against the clock.

 

It was agreed that the following saturday these riders would race under lights at the showground with members of Maitland motor cycle club

 

Bill Crampton concludes his letter by saying the spectators were in favour of the motor cycles so negotiations were entered into with the Hamilton motorcycle club for them to appear on December 15 1923.

 

Bill states that he was 65 and his memory was as good as it was in 1923.

 

It would appear that the archives of the Maitland or the Hamilton motorcycle clubS could hold the clues to the true origins of speedway

 

Now we have another pre JHS visionary one Len Upfold!!

 

over to you guys and gals

[Nigel]

I also offer this for discussion.

 

The following article was taken from “The Motor Cycle” April 1923. Written by an Englishman who was racing in the USA 1922 note the date 1922. A similar article was published in "Motorcycling"

"Fascinating Dirt Track Racing"

“Exciting but not really dangerous sport---An American idea that England might imitate” As an Englishman in America, keenly interested in motor cycling, especially racing, I notice several of your correspondents seem to have mistaken the ideas about racing conditions in the USA. Saucer tracks are a thing of the past; they went out of vogue about 1915. The present day racing is conducted entirely on dirt tracks of half to one mile or sometimes 2 miles to the lap. They are to all intents and purposes unbanked; that is they are, on average only two to three feet higher on the outside than on the inside as they are used extensively for horse trotting races as well as for motorcycles and cars. The surface of a good track is of Clay, which is rolled and dragged, and usually has a cushion of softish earth on top. The tracks are generally surrounded by wooden fences inside and out. During 1922 I do not recollect having heard of one single race meet conducted on anything other than dirt tracks and most of them were half mile tracks. There is also a certain very limited amount of record breaking carried out on banked Board tracks of one mile or more to the lap, in the Los Angeles and San Francisco districts. (Evidence suggests that board track racing continued up to 1928.. NB) I have raced several times at Brooklands and last summer (1922) I raced in seven Half mile dirt track meets over here. The dirt track as an engine testing ground cannot compare with Brooklands. By taking big risks a man often beats a faster machine ridden by a more cautious rider. No one would ever win at Brooklands by riding the “turns” two feet from the inside. On a dirt track the going is often best right next to the inside fence and the more daring riders will slither and slide around just close to the fence as they can keep, also no fast machine can be ridden wide open around a half mile track; the machine would turn completely round and go down, though some of the best riders will slide all the way around the turn with the back wheel twelve inches further out than it should be. This sounds impossible but never the less it happens. To all intents and purposes one steers by sliding the back wheel and the peculiar nature of the track surface makes this very much easier than it appears. From a sporting point of view the half mile unbanked dirt track is better than any other form of racing except the T.T.. So long as there is a bank of soft earth between the riders and the fences to prevent some of them taking undue risks cornering, it is the most fascinating sport I have ever gone in for and provided one wears leather clothes one can come off any number of time without serious consequences to rider or machine. The writer would like to see half a dozen dirt tracks scattered over England. They are cheap to construct, the gate money would more than pay for them, and they would give a large number of private owners a chance of motor cycle racing in one of its most fascinating forms.

 

Englands first Speedway rider?

[kennylane]

The following has been passed on to me, it is not research of mine, but I offer it for the appraisal of the discerning folk following this saga.

 

While browsing through some back numbers of the Speedway Star I found this headline

 

"The men who started speedway,"

 

A full page, without a creditation, Paul Parish was the editor, so we will hold him accountable, The appeared article on 11/2/1966.

 

The article in brief , is saying that JHS is researching a new book assumably Speedway Walkabout, and he had to do a lot of research, he contacted the New South Wales Morning Herald in a plea for information [ so you see he was not relying on his memory!]

 

JHS is reported to have recieved a reply from Bill Crampton who rode in the first meeting.

 

Bills letter implies that Maitland resident Len Upfold, a member of the Hamilton motor cycle club, had a vision of motorcycles racing under lights.

 

Len approached JHS, with a view to motorcycles racing at the Maitland showground. JHS then invited the motor cycle club to the showground on a sunday morning, date not given to try out the track

 

Riders were Bill Crampton, Les Upfold, George Ross, Andy Eyre, Bill Cogan and Claude Rankin. reference is made to JHS starting on a Triumph. Riders were timed against the clock.

 

It was agreed that the following saturday these riders would race under lights at the showground with members of Maitland motor cycle club

 

Bill Crampton concludes his letter by saying the spectators were in favour of the motor cycles so negotiations were entered into with the Hamilton motorcycle club for them to appear on December 15 1923.

 

Bill states that he was 65 and his memory was as good as it was in 1923.

 

It would appear that the archives of the Maitland or the Hamilton motorcycle clubS could hold the clues to the true origins of speedway

 

Now we have another pre JHS visionary one Len Upfold!!

 

over to you guys and gals

 

You are in danger of disappearing up you know where by going round in circles! The Bill Crampton letter has already been up on this thread several pages ago!

Edited October 30, 2011 by kennylane

[kennylane]

I also offer this for discussion.

 

The following article was taken from “The Motor Cycle” April 1923. Written by an Englishman who was racing in the USA 1922 note the date 1922. A similar article was published in "Motorcycling"

"Fascinating Dirt Track Racing"

“Exciting but not really dangerous sport---An American idea that England might imitate” As an Englishman in America, keenly interested in motor cycling, especially racing, I notice several of your correspondents seem to have mistaken the ideas about racing conditions in the USA. Saucer tracks are a thing of the past; they went out of vogue about 1915. The present day racing is conducted entirely on dirt tracks of half to one mile or sometimes 2 miles to the lap. They are to all intents and purposes unbanked; that is they are, on average only two to three feet higher on the outside than on the inside as they are used extensively for horse trotting races as well as for motorcycles and cars. The surface of a good track is of Clay, which is rolled and dragged, and usually has a cushion of softish earth on top. The tracks are generally surrounded by wooden fences inside and out. During 1922 I do not recollect having heard of one single race meet conducted on anything other than dirt tracks and most of them were half mile tracks. There is also a certain very limited amount of record breaking carried out on banked Board tracks of one mile or more to the lap, in the Los Angeles and San Francisco districts. (Evidence suggests that board track racing continued up to 1928.. NB) I have raced several times at Brooklands and last summer (1922) I raced in seven Half mile dirt track meets over here. The dirt track as an engine testing ground cannot compare with Brooklands. By taking big risks a man often beats a faster machine ridden by a more cautious rider. No one would ever win at Brooklands by riding the “turns” two feet from the inside. On a dirt track the going is often best right next to the inside fence and the more daring riders will slither and slide around just close to the fence as they can keep, also no fast machine can be ridden wide open around a half mile track; the machine would turn completely round and go down, though some of the best riders will slide all the way around the turn with the back wheel twelve inches further out than it should be. This sounds impossible but never the less it happens. To all intents and purposes one steers by sliding the back wheel and the peculiar nature of the track surface makes this very much easier than it appears. From a sporting point of view the half mile unbanked dirt track is better than any other form of racing except the T.T.. So long as there is a bank of soft earth between the riders and the fences to prevent some of them taking undue risks cornering, it is the most fascinating sport I have ever gone in for and provided one wears leather clothes one can come off any number of time without serious consequences to rider or machine. The writer would like to see half a dozen dirt tracks scattered over England. They are cheap to construct, the gate money would more than pay for them, and they would give a large number of private owners a chance of motor cycle racing in one of its most fascinating forms.

 

Englands first Speedway rider?

 

That's a wodge of reading! Didn't they know about paragraphs in those day? The first English speedway rider - wasn't that Freddie Hore? Who was the Englishman who compiled this tirade of reading matter posted above?

[Nigel]

I realise that to many people John S Hoskins is a hero, Someone they hold in high esteem and when our heros are brought down to earth we react and distrust those who sully their image. The realisation that our heros are not all they are cracked up to be can bring deflation and disappointment. The American speedway superstar Lloyd "Sprouts" Elder was my exulted hero. When I discoverd some unsavory truths about his private life I felt let down, deflated and disappointed. I have never looked at him in the same light again.