Next Issue Of Classic Speedway - Oct 2011

[norbold]

So far I've still to be convinced that Hoskins claims are wrong and with Colin Stewart and Bill Crampton putting good material to back this great promoter who were there years before those who want to belittle him were born.

Please tell me who is trying to "belittle" Johnnie Hoskins? Johnnie Hoskins was a great speedway promoter and character; a man who did a tremendous amount to popularise the sport. No-one disputes that. What is in doubt, however, is his claim that the meeting on 15 December 1923 was something new and that he "invented" speedway. No-one doubts the meeting took place. But it was just another in a long line of similar meeting held throughout Australia in the late teens and early 20s. The idea that there was anything different about the 15 December meeting is what is in dispute. And if you think that we should listen to the people who were actually there rather than later historians, even though these people who were there are recalling events from 40 or 50 years later (and in Ian Hoskins' case, not there at all), why are you so opposed to reading the contemporary newspaper report of just two days after the event, which surely must have the greatest claim to immediacy and therefore accuracy of anyone or anything?

[iris123]

Now i see on the NSS heritage wall thread,we have someone suggesting that Hoskins is honoured becaue he "brought speedway to this country".Surely the honour should go to a few others,rather than Hoskins.AJ Hunting for instance.As far as i know Johnnie had nothing to do with any of the meetings claimed as the first speedway meeting in Britain.But the myth goes on.....and it isn't anything against Hoskins to want the real people honoured

[olddon]

Please tell me who is trying to "belittle" Johnnie Hoskins? Johnnie Hoskins was a great speedway promoter and character; a man who did a tremendous amount to popularise the sport. No-one disputes that. What is in doubt, however, is his claim that the meeting on 15 December 1923 was something new and that he "invented" speedway. No-one doubts the meeting took place. But it was just another in a long line of similar meeting held throughout Australia in the late teens and early 20s. The idea that there was anything different about the 15 December meeting is what is in dispute. And if you think that we should listen to the people who were actually there rather than later historians, even though these people who were there are recalling events from 40 or 50 years later (and in Ian Hoskins' case, not there at all), why are you so opposed to reading the contemporary newspaper report of just two days after the event, which surely must have the greatest claim to immediacy and therefore accuracy of anyone or anything?

 

 

I have diverted to Wikipedia in my research and found this and I also give the link for people to find more detailed commentary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_speedway#History

“The first speedway meeting, as reported in the Maitland Mercury newspaper, took place on 15 December 1923 at the Maitland Showground in the Lower Hunter Valley, New South Wales, Australia. There is evidence that there may have been earlier meetings in Australia and broadsiding on small dirt tracks had been practised in America since before World War I.”

“Originating in Maitland, New South Wales, Australia, in 1923.”

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[olddon]

Now i see on the NSS heritage wall thread,we have someone suggesting that Hoskins is honoured becaue he "brought speedway to this country".Surely the honour should go to a few others,rather than Hoskins.AJ Hunting for instance.As far as i know Johnnie had nothing to do with any of the meetings claimed as the first speedway meeting in Britain.But the myth goes on.....and it isn't anything against Hoskins to want the real people honoured

 

 

Can you please give the Link for NSS Heritage as I would like to see the thread you mention. Thank you.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[iris123]

I have diverted to Wikipedia in my research and found this and I also give the link for people to find more detailed commentary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_speedway#History

“The first speedway meeting, as reported in the Maitland Mercury newspaper, took place on 15 December 1923 at the Maitland Showground in the Lower Hunter Valley, New South Wales, Australia. There is evidence that there may have been earlier meetings in Australia and broadsiding on small dirt tracks had been practised in America since before World War I.”

“Originating in Maitland, New South Wales, Australia, in 1923.”

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

Wikepedia isn't 100% correct on these things though.It relies on people putting the correct info on AND other checking and correcting false info.I once put a link on here to a Wiki page that stated Custom House stadium was built by the one and only Johnnie Hoskins.Of course it wasn't.Hoskins involvement with West Ham started after the stadium was built and after West Ham had been racing.I think it was Norbold who corrected that Wiki page

 

The Heritage wall is in the General speedway section of this site

[olddon]

 

The Heritage wall is in the General speedway section of this site

 

Thank you but I cannot find the Heritage wall anywhere. I even did a site search on here and acme up with "No results found for 'heritage wall'" Can you give me for guidance please?

JACK KEEN.

ERITH, Kent

[olddon]

Wikepedia isn't 100% correct on these things though.It relies on people putting the correct info on AND other checking and correcting false info.I once put a link on here to a Wiki page that stated Custom House stadium was built by the one and only Johnnie Hoskins.Of course it wasn't.Hoskins involvement with West Ham started after the stadium was built and after West Ham had been racing.I think it was Norbold who corrected that Wiki page

 

The Heritage wall is in the General speedway section of this site

 

 

I thought this would be the sort of reply I would get. How come nobody has ever corrected wikipedia. It looks as though the statement has been there for years. It was also interesting to see a photo of Colin Stewart who backs the 1923 start of speedway at West Maitland.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[iris123]

I thought this would be the sort of reply I would get. How come nobody has ever corrected wikipedia. It looks as though the statement has been there for years. It was also interesting to see a photo of Colin Stewart who backs the 1923 start of speedway at West Maitland.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

I don't really want to get into anything personal with you,but where is your evidence that the page has been there for years?I will put one bit of eveidence against......it mentions Gollob is the first Polish World Champ since Szczakiel.So that bit of evidence has been posted relatively recently wouldn't you say?But the thing with Wikepedia is a certain page might be there for years,but info within that page can be changed continously.This was my point with the Custom House page.Ok the info that Hoskins didn't build it can be corrected.But what is stopping someone some minutes,days or weeks after changing it back again.....

 

And just to point out that even the page you mention does actually state that there is eveidence that meetings were held before Maitland

[olddon]

I don't really want to get into anything personal with you,but where is your evidence that the page has been there for years?I will put one bit of eveidence against......it mentions Gollob is the first Polish World Champ since Szczakiel.So that bit of evidence has been posted relatively recently wouldn't you say?But the thing with Wikepedia is a certain page might be there for years,but info within that page can be changed continously.This was my point with the Custom House page.Ok the info that Hoskins didn't build it can be corrected.But what is stopping someone some minutes,days or weeks after changing it back again.....

 

And just to point out that even the page you mention does actually state that there is eveidence that meetings were held before Maitland

 

That fact about Gollob in my mind was edited at a later date, after the opage originated - sure! But the previous text in the chapter about speedway's origin may not have been updated. I agree that there is mention of meetings before Maitland in 1923 - but wikipedia refers to these as dirt track whereas it does credit Maitland in December 1923 as being speedway.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

Edited October 22, 2011 by olddon

[iris123]

That fact about Gollob in my mind was edited at a later date, after the opage originated - sure! But the previous text in the chapter about speedway's origin may not have been updated. I agree that there is mention of meetings before Maitland in 1923 - but wikipedia refers to these as dirt track whereas it does credit Maitland in December 1923 as being speedway.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

Have you looked at the source given for this Maitland meeting being called speedway?It is a website showing the programme where presumably the guy running the website has written on the programme in red type "first speedway meeting",and that is the "evidence".Because the programme nor the newspaper ad mention "speedway".The only thing mentioned is "Motorcycle racing".Now i could find a programme from an earlier meeting anywhere in the world and with the use of a pc type first speedway meeting on it and that would be evidence? Please.........

Edited October 22, 2011 by iris123

[BigFatDave]

Says the man who has consistently done nothing else since this thread started!

Your revisionist, almost Thommo-like attempts to rewrite History and distort the truth know no bounds, Norbold!

 

I realise you're not as young as you used to be, and maybe, as you've pointed out so often during the course of the debate, time plays tricks with the memory of certain individuals, particularly those who reside in a Home for the Befuddled in Clacton-sur-la-Mer, but cast your mind back to the beginning of this thread and explain to me where I attacked anybody in the first post, please.

Edited October 22, 2011 by BigFatDave

[norbold]

Your revisionist, almost Thommo-like attempts to rewrite History and distort the truth know no bounds, Norbold!

 

I realise you're not as young as you used to be, and maybe, as you've pointed out so often during the course of the debate, time plays tricks with the memory of certain individuals, particularly those who reside in a Home for the Befuddled in Clacton-sur-la-Mer, but cast your mind back to the beginning of this thread and explain to me where I attacked anybody in the first post, please.

 

Your contributions to a serious debate remind me of when you're having a serious discussion at home with some of your friends and your three year old son keeps interrupting to tell you about Igglepiggle, Upsy Daisy and Makka Pakka's latest adventures in the Night Garden.

 

Anyway, on to more serious matters. Olddon, you cannot be serious quoting Wikipedia as an authoritative source. Anyone can write what they like on there. In fact I added the last sentence, so you presumably must accept there were meetings before 15 December because Wikipedia says so.

 

I have asked you repeatedly to have a look at the newspaper report of the first meeting, but you have decided to read Wikipedia instead. If you read the newspaper report you will see that nowhere is speedway mentioned and, in fact, it talks about previous similar meetings - that's what the report of the meeting on 15 December says and printed just two days later. Why will you not read or accept what the nearest contemporary source we have to the event says?

 

You might like to read this article as well, by the way: http://www.philipcoppens.com/wikiworld.html

[Humphrey Appleby]

I've never disputed that Dirt Track, Long Track and Board Track racing took place in the US and Oz before the first SPEEDWAY meeting on 15 December 1923 at Maitland, Norbold.

 

When does a long track become a speedway track, and when does a grass track become a dirt track, and vice-versa? What actually makes something 'speedway' as opposed to another form of oval motorcycle racing?

 

I don't claim any particular in-depth knowledge of this subject, but it seems improbable there wasn't speedway-type racing prior 1923 as practical motorcycles had already existed for at least 30 years by that point.

[norbold]

Exactly so, Humphrey.

[BigFatDave]

Your contributions to a serious debate remind me of when you're having a serious discussion at home with some of your friends and your three year old son keeps interrupting to tell you about Igglepiggle, Upsy Daisy and Makka Pakka's latest adventures in the Night Garden.

I see, so being unable to back up your sweeping accusational statement you resort to introducing red herrings.

 

I'll give you one more chance: cast your mind back to the beginning of this thread and explain to me where I attacked anybody in the first post, please.

 

If you are unable to back your statement up then not only do I suggest that the rest of your argument falls by the wayside, but also I reckon an apology is in order.

[olddon]

Here's more from wikipedia:

 

"Johnnie S. Hoskins MBE (1892 Waitara, New Zealand – 1987 Kent, England) is the man who is considered to have 'invented' motorcycle speedway. If it cannot be established he invented the sport, he certainly played the largest role in promoting the sport (and Stock car racing) in the United Kingdom."

 

"Electric Light Carnival

On 1 December, 1923, the following appeared in the Maitland Daily Mercury:-

"Motor cycle races will be a novel feature of the sports carnival to be held on December 15 on the Show Ground. The track is in splendid order, and it is expected that over 40 entries will be received for the different motor cycling events. This will be the first time that motor cycling races have been held on the Show Ground, and the events should therefore prove of great interest."

In his capacity as Secretary to the Local Hunter River Agricultural Horticultural Society, Hoskins organized a Sports Charity Carnival which was staged on the Maitland Showground on 15 December, 1923. The Electric Light Carnival was staged to benefit the local orphanages and the Local Hunter River Agricultural Horticultural Society. The programme of events staged that night consisted of cycling events, horse events, trotting, athletics and motorcycle racing.

This was the first occasion motorcycle racing had been staged at the venue and it is this date that is widely recognised as the day on which motorcycle speedway in its current form was born. He ran speedway at Maitland for two years and then moved onto Newcastle, Australia."

 

That's great reading for me. For the fuller version here's the wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnnie_Hoskins

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

Edited October 23, 2011 by olddon

[Humphrey Appleby]

That's great reading for me. For the fuller version here's the wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnnie_Hoskins

 

Whilst Wikipedia can be a good reference for getting background information, it's not a scholarly journal and often contains inaccuracies. As anyone can contribute text, it's subject to the principle of he who shouts loudest wins out, regardless of how informed they might be.

 

I certainly wouldn't rely on Wikipedia as the definitive answer for who invented speedway, but I suspect in reality there's not a single answer. As with most things are commonly supposed to be invented by someone, it's usually a gradual evolution from a variety of origins and involving a number of people (sometimes completely independently from each other).

[norbold]

I suggest you re-read the Wikipedia entry on speedway, olddon. My reading of it is that it says something quite different to what you are saying.

 

Just to make it easy for you, this is the link again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_speedway

Edited October 24, 2011 by norbold

[norbold]

I see, so being unable to back up your sweeping accusational statement you resort to introducing red herrings.

 

I'll give you one more chance: cast your mind back to the beginning of this thread and explain to me where I attacked anybody in the first post, please.

 

If you are unable to back your statement up then not only do I suggest that the rest of your argument falls by the wayside, but also I reckon an apology is in order.

OK, Dave, if you seriously want to discuss this issue, yes, let us take a look back at some of the contributions to this topic. You started it off by quoting from Ian Hoskins.

From Ian Hoskins:

 

To those who are looking for me to defend the attacks upon my father, Johnnie Hoskins, I have done so in my next article for Classic Speedway. The issue is due out on October 14th and I am glad to see that there are other critics who rise to his defence as a pioneering speedway promoter apart from myself. I put it this way- if an un-named person allowed a field to be used by some motor cyclists to do a few circuits in 1920, what is the point in calling him the pioneer promoter of speedway if he never followed up by staging weekly events before the public as Johnnie did in 1923?

 

Speedway should have a birthdate to be recalled by riders and the public like football and cricket have. Johnnie gave such a date and promoted it boldly. He introduced broadsiding, cinder tracks, safety fences, rules of racing and peronality riders. He followed up by promoting at Newcastle, Sydney and Perth in 1927. He was a promoter in every sense of the word. I rest my case here and have more to say in my Classic article.

 

Ian Hoskins.

 

I'm sure everyone who's been to Maitland and seen the commemorative plaque under the Grandstand would agree - this is the birthplace of Motorcycle Speedway and Johnnie Hoskins was the Godfather.

To start with, let's note the last line which was your own addition.

 

As a result of your post, I then asked in relation to the sentence, "Speedway should have a birthdate to be recalled by riders and the public like football and cricket have."

 

 

And what are those well-known dates, pray?

To which you replied

 

Haven't you got Google on your 'puter, Norbie? If so, then may I respectfully suggest you extract your preferred digit and flamin' well look it up, cuz. I'm not the British Flamin' Museum!

 

So, I think the first avoidance of the question and first personal attack belongs to you old chap.

 

Anyway, to continue...

 

In response to some further debate on the subject, you then said,

 

I'm not trying to defend anything, Norbold. I posted a statement by Ian Hoskins - you seem to have adopted a 'Shoot the Messenger' approach - I think your retirement may have contributed to your rapid decline in debating skills.

As for me, while I don't claim to be the fount of all knowledge like yourself, or pretend to have done lots of research while facetiously asking other people to prove one's own points, at least I've been to Maitland and seen the evidence with my own eyes.

 

Now let's deconstruct this a little, which seems suspiciously like a personal attack to me. Firstly, you seem to be trying to weasel out of your original statement, which to remind us said, "I'm sure everyone who's been to Maitland and seen the commemorative plaque under the Grandstand would agree - this is the birthplace of Motorcycle Speedway and Johnnie Hoskins was the Godfather." So, not just a messenger after all. Next, your statement, "facetiously asking other people to prove one's own points" I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean. Can you please clarify? What evidence have you seen at Maitland apart from a plaque?

 

I then went on to say:

 

 

 

 

Anyway, enough of the name calling. I would be interested in hearing, Dave and Olddon and White Knight come to that, your views on the meetings held at Townsville, Thebarton, Rockhampton and Newcastle prior to December 1923 and also your views on riders like Don Johns, Albert "Shrimp" Burns, Eddie Brinck and Maldwyn Jones. Let's keep it all factual. Let's try and make this a serious discussion as the subject really deserves that.

 

To which you replied:

I've never disputed that Dirt Track, Long Track and Board Track racing took place in the US and Oz before the first SPEEDWAY meeting on 15 December 1923 at Maitland, Norbold.

 

 

and

 

No-one is denying that most if not all of these riders had raced before, so why do you keep banging on about it?

 

What we are saying is that this meeting, on 15 December 1923 at Maitland, was the first one under the banner of SPEEDWAY.

 

Just because either you or one of your mates is a tad forgetful or maybe even economical with the truth doesn't give you the right to tar others with the same brush, let alone try to discredit their written evidence. I expected better of you, Norbold.

 

My reply:

The problem is, Dave, I really don't understand what you mean when you say this was the first meeting held under the banner of SPEEDWAY. It was not advertised nor reported as a speedway meeting. Why, in your opinion, was the West Maitland Carnival meeting which included all sorts of other sports, any different to all those held before it?

You have still not answered this crucial question. Preferring, instead, to make personal attacks on me.

 

If you want to continue this debate in a serious manner, I am more than happy to do so, but can you please answer my question. Why do you say that the 15 December meeting was the first meeting "held under the banner of Speedway"? What is your evidence for this? Historians work with evidence not on statements plucked out the air; they need to support statements with some evidence. Please tell me what yours is.

Edited October 24, 2011 by norbold

[olddon]

I suggest you re-read the Wikipedia entry on speedway, olddon. My reading of it is that it says something quite different to what you are saying.

 

Just to make it easy for you, this is the link again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorcycle_speedway

 

 

This looks like a most recent weekend update to what I had previously brought attention on wikipedia to in regard Maitland December 15 1923!

 

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT