The White Knight Posted October 18, 2011 Report Share Posted October 18, 2011 Looking forward to this Issue. Any idea when it is coming out Tony. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) I only know what has been claimed and counter-claimed in regard to Johnnie Hoskins and the "start of speedway" at West Maitland in 1923. However, this comment from the late Colin Stewart gives food for thought. It is debatable if Stewart was in fact referring to the December meeting, but there can be little doubt that his reference does refer to the period under discussion on here and which seems to have caused so much furore, not only on the BSF, but other discussion groups as well. I would add that it must also be considered that the comments were made by Colin Stewart in 1979 which was 56 years after the Maitland venture. And we all know how time can play tricks with the memory. To avoid adverse comments, I would add that speedstox12 is the name under which I moderate on the site which is quoted. --- In oldtimespeedway@yahoogroups.com, "speedstox12" <speedstox12@...> wrote: > From the book "Col Stewart, Australia's Speedway King, 1926-31'.Page 10, chapter, 'Dirt Track Beginnings':this part of a speech originally made by Colin Stewart in 1979. > "The story of the origins of organised dirt track racing became famous among riders. It was reported that the 1923 West Maitland Show had been a disaster. Rain had been pouring down for days and hardly anyone turned up. Johnnie Hoskins was the Show Ground's Secretary, and desperate for ideas to bring in the crowds and stave off bankruptcy. He was driving home one evening when he came across an amazing sight. Through a haze of exhaust fumes and dust he saw a group of riders apparently trying to commit suicide by hurtling their motorbikes round a rough dirt track they;d carved out through the bush. Hoskins asked them if they'd like to race on the Show Grounds, and soon an article appeared in the local newspaper announcing the very first organised dirt track meeting. "Hoskins promoted his racing bikes under the name 'speedway' and introduced racing under lights, cash prizes, racing rules and bike modifications. Country boys, used to rough riding, knew the only practical way to negotiate the rutted was to put your feet on the ground and the famous broadsiding began to develop. The advantages of a confined oval track where crowds could see every 'thrill and spill' (a favourite expression from those days), had been known as far back as chariot racing in Roman times, and Hoskins, like the Romans, knew a successful sport had to be part showmanship. His modern-day gladiators were an instant success and crowds began streaming in to watch the new sport." > Edited October 19, 2011 by speedyguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickthemuppet Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 (edited) It DID rain yesterday, Jack! It's olddon, not old dog, Norbold - dunno how he is at picking up new tricks, but I'm back in the regular workforce as of today, learning how to drive BIG Forklifts and learning new skills all the time. Don't say you & your mates have been slagging us off behind our backs - or should that be Tracks? Nice to see you are learning my trade to drive fork lift trucks. I did not have any special training I just picked it up as I went along Edited October 19, 2011 by mickthemuppet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatDave Posted October 19, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Nice to see you are learning my trade to drive fork lift trucks. I did not have any special training I just picked it up as I went along Mick I've been driving them for years. since before you needed a separate licence, but this is the first time I've had a chance to play with a big Manitou telescopic handler - fun & games! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olddon Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 I only know what has been claimed and counter-claimed in regard to Johnnie Hoskins and the "start of speedway" at West Maitland in 1923. However, this comment from the late Colin Stewart gives food for thought. It is debatable if Stewart was in fact referring to the December meeting, but there can be little doubt that his reference does refer to the period under discussion on here and which seems to have caused so much furore, not only on the BSF, but other discussion groups as well. I would add that it must also be considered that the comments were made by Colin Stewart in 1979 which was 56 years after the Maitland venture. And we all know how time can play tricks with the memory. To avoid adverse comments, I would add that speedstox12 is the name under which I moderate on the site which is quoted. --- In oldtimespeedway@yahoogroups.com, "speedstox12" <speedstox12@...> wrote: > From the book "Col Stewart, Australia's Speedway King, 1926-31'.Page 10, chapter, 'Dirt Track Beginnings':this part of a speech originally made by Colin Stewart in 1979. > "The story of the origins of organised dirt track racing became famous among riders. It was reported that the 1923 West Maitland Show had been a disaster. Rain had been pouring down for days and hardly anyone turned up. Johnnie Hoskins was the Show Ground's Secretary, and desperate for ideas to bring in the crowds and stave off bankruptcy. He was driving home one evening when he came across an amazing sight. Through a haze of exhaust fumes and dust he saw a group of riders apparently trying to commit suicide by hurtling their motorbikes round a rough dirt track they;d carved out through the bush. Hoskins asked them if they'd like to race on the Show Grounds, and soon an article appeared in the local newspaper announcing the very first organised dirt track meeting. "Hoskins promoted his racing bikes under the name 'speedway' and introduced racing under lights, cash prizes, racing rules and bike modifications. Country boys, used to rough riding, knew the only practical way to negotiate the rutted was to put your feet on the ground and the famous broadsiding began to develop. The advantages of a confined oval track where crowds could see every 'thrill and spill' (a favourite expression from those days), had been known as far back as chariot racing in Roman times, and Hoskins, like the Romans, knew a successful sport had to be part showmanship. His modern-day gladiators were an instant success and crowds began streaming in to watch the new sport." > I've seen this before but it does throw open the possibility that all claimed for JSH and Maitland in 1923 could be correct after all. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickthemuppet Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Johnny Hoskins became the secretary of the Local Hunter River Agricultural Society that promoted the dirt track meeting at the Show Ground , West Maitland. It was the first time that the show ground had electricity. Some riders wore helmets others never bothered. Very few wore gloves.Some were 250 cc's some were 1000 cc's. It was two mile handicap races of 6 riders. Sixty riders took part and there was £50 prize money. One of the rules was no rider must take his foot or feet off the footrest. No safety fence and not called Speedway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olddon Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Johnny Hoskins became the secretary of the Local Hunter River Agricultural Society that promoted the dirt track meeting at the Show Ground , West Maitland. It was the first time that the show ground had electricity. Some riders wore helmets others never bothered. Very few wore gloves.Some were 250 cc's some were 1000 cc's. It was two mile handicap races of 6 riders. Sixty riders took part and there was £50 prize money. One of the rules was no rider must take his foot or feet off the footrest. No safety fence and not called Speedway I think Colin Stewart's version of West Maitland 1923 and Johnnie Hoskins involvement there is likely to prove more accurate than your version of events. After all, Stewart was a speedway rider in this era. Were you? JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyMac Posted October 19, 2011 Report Share Posted October 19, 2011 Looking forward to this Issue. Any idea when it is coming out Tony. :) Hopefully I have some idea! Going to press today (Thurs) and subscribers should receive it within the next 10 days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 I think Colin Stewart's version of West Maitland 1923 and Johnnie Hoskins involvement there is likely to prove more accurate than your version of events. After all, Stewart was a speedway rider in this era. Were you? JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT You obviously still haven't read the contemporary newspaper report of the 15 December meeting I recommended to you, then. This was written two days after the meeting not 56 years later. More on oral history and people's memories. I am currently writing a new book on Clacton - a Then and Now book. My publisher has asked me to take 45 photos from one of my old books on Clacton and take a photograph from the identical spot today as a comparison. One of the photos I've decided to use is of the swimming pool at Butlin's Holiday Camp. The camp was closed in 1983 and demolished a couple of years later. There is now no sign of it left, so getting a "now" photo is a bit difficult as there is nothing left on the ground to indicate where it actually was. The only clue are some old plans showing where the swimming pool was in relation to the main entrance to the camp, the position of which you would think would be easy to remember. Now I visited the camp several times myself and I think I know where the main entrance was, but, to be sure, I have asked several people I know who either worked at the camp or visited it. Every one of them has a different idea of where the entrance was, differing by something like 400 metres. We are talking here of people's memories of 25 years ago (not 56 years ago) and not just a one-off occurrence but something some of them went to every day. People's memories are not to be trusted without supportive contemporary evidence and, in regard to 15 December 1923, that contemporary evidence is not only not supportive but is actually contrary to the idea of that meeting being the first "speedway" meeting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olddon Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 You obviously still haven't read the contemporary newspaper report of the 15 December meeting I recommended to you, then. This was written two days after the meeting not 56 years later. Correct! I have not read the contemporary newspaper report. Here's why. A while back in the New Cross reunion saga on the BSF which was brought to an abrupt end, the manager of the site which you refer to accused me of being negative and virtually boring in my Posts, both on here and on the site you suggested I visit. I do sometimes go there just to browse but not to join in the debates any more. I've not been there recently but will after I sign out from here. Regarding Colin Stewart's comments that appeared on here - is it not possible that Stewart had evidence from the Maitland affair to support his comments about the start of speedway and the involvement of Johnnie Hoskins? JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Of course it's possible. And if that evidence is available why has no-one ever produced it? It would be invaluable. Just like the report from the Monday December 17, 1923 Maitland Daily Mercury is invaluable but if you refuse to read it because it might upset your cosy little world, there's really not much point in continuing this discussion with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickthemuppet Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 (edited) I think Colin Stewart's version of West Maitland 1923 and Johnnie Hoskins involvement there is likely to prove more accurate than your version of events. After all, Stewart was a speedway rider in this era. Were you? JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT The only thing correct about your statement was that I was not a speedway rider in 1923. Why do you think Colin Srewart's version of West Maitland is more correct than what I have said. I got my information from a book on Speedway which I would think is more correct than any other version that you have put on here Edited October 20, 2011 by mickthemuppet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted October 20, 2011 Report Share Posted October 20, 2011 Hopefully I have some idea! Going to press today (Thurs) and subscribers should receive it within the next 10 days. Thanks for your reply Tony. Perhaps I should have put - can you please let me know when it is due out? Sorry. Ian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigFatDave Posted October 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 .... if you refuse to read it because it might upset your cosy little world, there's really not much point in continuing this discussion with you. A sure sign that someone's losing an argument on here is when they attack the Poster, not the Post, Norbold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olddon Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 A sure sign that someone's losing an argument on here is when they attack the Poster, not the Post, Norbold. Like you BFD, I was rather surprised at first at the tone adopted towards me after my mention of how I was treated by the manager of another site. Now I realise, this guy is the co-manager of the same site, so adopting a superior attitude seems commonplace with them. They tend to think that all posters are full-time researchers rather than just speedway followers who use these sites to try and learn more about speedway history. When we come up with something their reaction is to condemn people as armchair researchers relying on old copies of Speedway Star for our facts and maybe it is because we don't all have the time to spend at places where old newspapers are kept. I still like the theory that was put across in Colin Stewart's book about speedway's start because it covers a lot of those very early beginnings in 1923 at Maitland and is a good read to find out more of Johnnie Hoskins involving with that particular period. It seems however that history sites don't like me sometimes because while one of them has called me negative the other has twice given me public warnings so what about that.So far I've still to be convinced that Hoskins claims are wrong and with Colin Stewart and Bill Crampton putting good material to back this great promoter who were there years before those who want to belittle him were born. It's the men on thr ground who count and these former riders seem to have put a strong supporting factual case in Johnnie's favour. Thanks for some support BFD, it is appreciated by me. I just cannot wait for the article by son Ian Hoskins to back his dad's rightful place in history. Sorry I've gone on a bit here. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 Like you BFD, I was rather surprised at first at the tone adopted towards me after my mention of how I was treated by the manager of another site. Now I realise, this guy is the co-manager of the same site, so adopting a superior attitude seems commonplace with them. They tend to think that all posters are full-time researchers rather than just speedway followers who use these sites to try and learn more about speedway history. When we come up with something their reaction is to condemn people as armchair researchers relying on old copies of Speedway Star for our facts and maybe it is because we don't all have the time to spend at places where old newspapers are kept. I still like the theory that was put across in Colin Stewart's book about speedway's start because it covers a lot of those very early beginnings in 1923 at Maitland and is a good read to find out more of Johnnie Hoskins involving with that particular period. It seems however that history sites don't like me sometimes because while one of them has called me negative the other has twice given me public warnings so what about that.So far I've still to be convinced that Hoskins claims are wrong and with Colin Stewart and Bill Crampton putting good material to back this great promoter who were there years before those who want to belittle him were born. It's the men on thr ground who count and these former riders seem to have put a strong supporting factual case in Johnnie's favour. Thanks for some support BFD, it is appreciated by me. I just cannot wait for the article by son Ian Hoskins to back his dad's rightful place in history. Sorry I've gone on a bit here. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Surely it isn't about liking a theory,it is about what is correct.And you say you support the words of those who were there over those who weren't born.Yet you can't wait to read the words of Ian Hoskins to back up the theory you so like about his father.Sorry,but it all seems a bit like picking out things that suit you,rather than wanting to really find out the truth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickthemuppet Posted October 21, 2011 Report Share Posted October 21, 2011 (edited) Surely it isn't about liking a theory,it is about what is correct.And you say you support the words of those who were there over those who weren't born.Yet you can't wait to read the words of Ian Hoskins to back up the theory you so like about his father.Sorry,but it all seems a bit like picking out things that suit you,rather than wanting to really find out the truth Perhaps I should have said that my posting about West Maitland were taken from a book called "Speedway Walkabout" by a certaiin Johnny Hoskins. Perhaps you should all read it and you might understand the topic a little bit more. I would think he would have a better idea than anybody else about what happenedce. Would that be enough evidence for you Olddon Edited October 21, 2011 by mickthemuppet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olddon Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Surely it isn't about liking a theory,it is about what is correct.And you say you support the words of those who were there over those who weren't born.Yet you can't wait to read the words of Ian Hoskins to back up the theory you so like about his father.Sorry,but it all seems a bit like picking out things that suit you,rather than wanting to really find out the truth At the moment I'm prepared to support Ian Hoskins because I feel his article will be based upon papers belonging to Johnnie for the period under debate. JACK KENN, ERITH, KENT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olddon Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 Perhaps I should have said that my posting about West Maitland were taken from a book called "Speedway Walkabout" by a certaiin Johnny Hoskins. Perhaps you should all read it and you might understand the topic a little bit more. I would think he would have a better idea than anybody else about what happenedce. Would that be enough evidence for you Olddon Pity that you didn't make it clear in your post because it looked as though it was stuff you were solely putting forward and caused everyone to go off in the wrong direction in response. JACK KEEN, ERITH, KENT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted October 22, 2011 Report Share Posted October 22, 2011 A sure sign that someone's losing an argument on here is when they attack the Poster, not the Post, Norbold. Says the man who has consistently done nothing else since this thread started! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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