Next Issue Of Classic Speedway - Oct 2011

[olddon]

I've just hunted around for more about John Hoskins and Bill Crampton at Maitland in 1923. It could be that not only did Johnnie stage the first SPEEDWAY meeting but actual rode in the sport's first race - according to this anyway.

 

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/oldtimespeedway/message/9764

 

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

Edited October 14, 2011 by olddon

[BigFatDave]

The four tracks I have mentioned are all in Australia and all held meetings similar to the one held at West Maitland by Johnnie Hoskins. Indeed, unlike the meeting at West Maitland which was held on grass, the meeting at Thebarton was even held on cinders.

 

The four American riders I mentioned all raced on dirt tracks and all broadsided in speedway fashion before the First World War and into the early 20s, again all before West Maitland.

I've never disputed that Dirt Track, Long Track and Board Track racing took place in the US and Oz before the first SPEEDWAY meeting on 15 December 1923 at Maitland, Norbold.

[olddon]

I've never disputed that Dirt Track, Long Track and Board Track racing took place in the US and Oz before the first SPEEDWAY meeting on 15 December 1923 at Maitland, Norbold.

 

 

Now we're getting to the crux of the debate. The first SPEEDWAY meeting. There were other disciplines like dirt track and board racing before Maitland, and there have been others since that first SPEEDWAY meeting at Maitland in December 1923. Likewise other disciplines since then - mostly on four wheels. But BFD's comment has adequately summed up the whole matter and , hopefully, will be backed by Ian Hoskins article on the same trend. When the first SPEEDWAY meeting took place.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[norbold]

It depends what you mean by speedway of course. But, whatever it is, the meeting at West Maitland was no different to those other Carnival meetings held before it in Australia. West Maitland 1923 was definitely not the first SPEEDWAY meeting. Motor bike racing was held as part of an overall Carnival programme as it had been many times before. It was also held on grass, whereas Thebarton for one had actually been held on cinders. If the definition of speedway is riders not using brakes and sliding round corners then the Americans were at it back in c. 1912. This didn't happen at West Maitland anyway.

 

There was nothing special about the West Maitland meeting that hadn't been done before apart from Johnnie Hoskins' showmanship and his later claims in his own inimitable way that it was the first.

 

What was important in the development of speedway about West Maitland was that regular Carnival meetings featuring motor bike racing were held there in 1923/24, but these were promoted by Billy Dart and Campbell and Du Frocq not Johnnie Hoskins, whose only involvement seems to have been the December 1923 meeting.

[norbold]

Coming to Bill Crampton, memories and oral histories are notoriously unreliable. For example I once asked Wally Green what he could remember about winning the Division Three Match race Championship from Bert Roger in 1948. His answer was that he'd never won the Championship. So, do I trust Wally's memories or contemporary newspapers, speedway press reports and Stenner's Annual, who all say he did and give reports of his victory?

 

The fact is that Bill Crampton had raced in motor cycle events on a showground in the Hunter Valley BEFORE he took part in Johnnie Hoskins' meeting. And Bill wasn't the only one who raced at that carnival at West Maitland which featured motor cycles who had raced on a showground previously.

[BigFatDave]

Coming to Bill Crampton, memories and oral histories are notoriously unreliable. For example I once asked Wally Green what he could remember about winning the Division Three Match race Championship from Bert Roger in 1948. His answer was that he'd never won the Championship. So, do I trust Wally's memories or contemporary newspapers, speedway press reports and Stenner's Annual, who all say he did and give reports of his victory?

 

The fact is that Bill Crampton had raced in motor cycle events on a showground in the Hunter Valley BEFORE he took part in Johnnie Hoskins' meeting. And Bill wasn't the only one who raced at that carnival at West Maitland which featured motor cycles who had raced on a showground previously.

No-one is denying that most if not all of these riders had raced before, so why do you keep banging on about it?

 

What we are saying is that this meeting, on 15 December 1923 at Maitland, was the first one under the banner of SPEEDWAY.

 

Just because either you or one of your mates is a tad forgetful or maybe even economical with the truth doesn't give you the right to tar others with the same brush, let alone try to discredit their written evidence. I expected better of you, Norbold.

[norbold]

The problem is, Dave, I really don't understand what you mean when you say this was the first meeting held under the banner of SPEEDWAY. It was not advertised nor reported as a speedway meeting. Why, in your opinion, was the West Maitland Carnival meeting which included all sorts of other sports, any different to all those held before it?

[norbold]

 

Just because either you or one of your mates is a tad forgetful or maybe even economical with the truth doesn't give you the right to tar others with the same brush, let alone try to discredit their written evidence. I expected better of you, Norbold.

I was merely pointing out that you can't always rely on memories to be accurate historical fact. I'll give you another example. I give lots of talks on the history of Clacton. Once I was doing this and I said that the open air swimming pool on Clacton Pier was opened in 1932. A woman interrupted me to say I was wrong and that it opened in 1936 and she should know because she was there. How is it that I can point to three local newspaper reports from 1932 reporting the opening of the swimming pool?

 

Ask any respected historian, including those who specialise in oral history, and they will all tell you that you cannot take what people tell you at face value. People's memories get clouded by time, dates merge, facts forgotten. It is far better to rely on contemporary written evidence than "eye witness" evidence produced years after the event. I'm not really sure why you expect better of me than to accept the generally accepted wisdom that I have gone along with for most of my life - O level history, A level history, college history, 37 years at The British Museum and 23 written history books just because one person's memories happen to fit in with your pre-conceived ideas. Perhaps you should try delving into the subject yourself. Spend a few hours in local libraries looking up contemporary literature, newspapers, town records and so on like Ross, Nigel and I have done, before coming to your conclusion that if Bill Crampton says it it must be right.

[mickthemuppet]

The arguments about where was the first Speedway meeting will always be disputed. Maybe we should find out what the word speedway actually means and where did it come from. The word speedway became into being around the period of 1890 to 1910. The word meant a stadium for either cars or motorbikes and came from USA. There is a town in Indiana USA called Speedway (population 12,500) So could this mean that speedway roughly as we know it started there during this period, which is a lot earlier than anything in England or Australia.

Edited October 14, 2011 by mickthemuppet

[olddon]

I'm backing BFD on the first SPEEDWAY meeting as such was the event at Maitland in December 1923. There has to be a beginning to everything and for SPEEDWAY that's should be taken as the definitive date. Let's stop clouding the issue with tish-tosh about American board racers and then dirt tracks in Australia and the USA prior to Johnnie Hoskins and the aforementioned December 1923 Maitland event. For me, SPEEDWAY starts there. I am sure Ian Hoskins' article set for 'Classic Speedway' soon will confirm this fact further. I have seen enough further evidence in the writings of Col Stewart and Bill Crampton to support my view.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[olddon]

The arguments about where was the first Speedway meeting will always be disputed. Maybe we should find out what the word speedway actually means and where did it come from. The word speedway became into being around the period of 1890 to 1910. The word meant a stadium for either cars or motorbikes and came from USA. There is a town in Indiana USA called Speedway (population 12,500) So could this mean that speedway roughly as we know it started there during this period, which is a lot earlier than anything in England or Australia.

 

 

Were the tracks less than quarter-mile ovals, loose surfaced, and riders going anti-clockwise?

JACK KEEN,

ERITH KENT

[olddon]

Coming to Bill Crampton, memories and oral histories are notoriously unreliable. For example I once asked Wally Green what he could remember about winning the Division Three Match race Championship from Bert Roger in 1948. His answer was that he'd never won the Championship. So, do I trust Wally's memories or contemporary newspapers, speedway press reports and Stenner's Annual, who all say he did and give reports of his victory?

 

The fact is that Bill Crampton had raced in motor cycle events on a showground in the Hunter Valley BEFORE he took part in Johnnie Hoskins' meeting. And Bill wasn't the only one who raced at that carnival at West Maitland which featured motor cycles who had raced on a showground previously.

 

This is the main quote in Bill Crampton's letter to Johnnie Hoskins:

"The spectacle of motor cycles roaring round the track appealed to the spectators, so negotiations began between Maitland Show Association and the Hamilton Motor Cycle Club with the result that the first motor cycle carnival under lights was held on December 15, 1923.

"And so was born the era speedway racing that we know today". - (signed) Bill Crampton, New South Wales, Australia - sent to Johnny (Johnnie) Hoskins in 1967 and subsequently published in the 'Speedway Star.'

Edited October 14, 2011 by olddon

[norbold]

There has to be a beginning to everything and for SPEEDWAY that's should be taken as the definitive date.

Why does there have to be a beginning for everything? Ian Hoskins mentions the definitive starting date for football and cricket. I asked earlier - and got no reply - what are these dates? Most sports evolved and do not have definitive starting dates. Speedway is very much in this category.

Let's stop clouding the issue with tish-tosh about American board racers and then dirt tracks in Australia and the USA prior to Johnnie Hoskins and the aforementioned December 1923 Maitland event.

It's nice to know you regard serious research as tish-tosh. Says it all really.

[norbold]

This is the main quote in Bill Crampton's letter to Johnnie Hoskins:

"The spectacle of motor cycles roaring round the track appealed to the spectators, so negotiations began between Maitland Show Association and the Hamilton Motor Cycle Club with the result that the first motor cycle carnival under lights was held on December 15, 1923.

"And so was born the era speedway racing that we know today". - (signed) Bill Crampton, New South Wales, Australia - sent to Johnny (Johnnie) Hoskins in 1967 and subsequently published in the 'Speedway Star.'

 

There was motor cycle racing under lights at Thebarton Oval, Adelaide, and on cinders, not on grass like West Maitland some 12 months prior to December 1923.

 

And here is the Monday December 17, 1923 Maitland Daily Mercury's report on the Saturday December 15 carnival: -

 

"For the first time motor cycle racing was introduced into the programme and the innovation proved most successful. In an exhibition ride at the last sports several riders gave the track a good test and they then expressed themselves satisfied with it. They also stated that it was better than several other tracks that have been used for this kind of sport on a number of occasions..."

 

Please note the last sentence!

 

(Also note, in spite of BFD's protestations, it was called motor cycle racing, not speedway.)

[norbold]

Were the tracks less than quarter-mile ovals, loose surfaced, and riders going anti-clockwise?

JACK KEEN,

ERITH KENT

Most were probably bigger than quarter mile, the dirt tracks were loose surfaced, riders went anti-clockwise and broadsided without brakes.

 

Now, tell me, from your extensive knowledge of the meeting at West Maitland, how big was the track, was it loose surfaced, did the bikes have brakes and did the riders broadside?

Edited October 16, 2011 by norbold

[olddon]

I'm amused as to how this BSF debate has caused a few members of another site to get their knickers-in-a-twist about the views of us so-called pro-Hoskinites on here but I doubt if BFD has seen them otherwise he would have laughed so much it would have brought rain to the Northern Territory!

 

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

Edited October 18, 2011 by olddon

[norbold]

Well, I'm glad you been reading "another site", olddon. You might have learnt something.

[BigFatDave]

I'm amused as to how this BSF debate has caused a few members of another site to get their knickers-in-a-twist about the views of us so-called pro-Hoskinites on here but I doubt if BFD has seen them otherwise he would have laughed so much it would have brought rain to the Northern Territory!

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

It DID rain yesterday, Jack!

Well, I'm glad you been reading "another site", olddon. You might have learnt something.

It's olddon, not old dog, Norbold - dunno how he is at picking up new tricks, but I'm back in the regular workforce as of today, learning how to drive BIG Forklifts and learning new skills all the time. Don't say you & your mates have been slagging us off behind our backs - or should that be Tracks?

[norbold]

Hi there olddon, you might like to have a further look at "another site". Ross has just posted, via Jim, the report from the Monday December 17, 1923 Maitland Daily Mercury of the carnival which took place on Saturday December 15.

 

I'm sure a true historian like yourself will find it fascinating.

[olddon]

Hi there olddon, you might like to have a further look at "another site". Ross has just posted, via Jim, the report from the Monday December 17, 1923 Maitland Daily Mercury of the carnival which took place on Saturday December 15.

 

I'm sure a true historian like yourself will find it fascinating.

 

 

I have been to the alternate "another site" and found this. Where does it feature in the start of speedway? On the site in question there's many comments about the start of speedway theme.Sadly, it's not backing the great Johnnie Hoskins claim to have started speedway.

 

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/oldtimespeedway/message/8335

 

If you scroll down the page you'll see them listed as Early Days.

 

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

Edited October 18, 2011 by olddon