Next Issue Of Classic Speedway - Oct 2011

[norbold]

why on earth would I go to all the expense and trouble of sourcing a back copy just to read your particular slant, doubtless rewriting history again, on a topic I have absolutely no interest in?

No interest in? Have I imagined all those posts above then or is there someone pretending to be you posting on a subject you have "absolutely no interest in"?

 

 

Also, if you have "absolutely no interest in" the subject, how is it that you think you know more about it than people who have spent years researching into the subject and are interested in it?

[BigFatDave]

No interest in? Have I imagined all those posts above then or is there someone pretending to be you posting on a subject you have "absolutely no interest in"?

 

 

Also, if you have "absolutely no interest in" the subject, how is it that you think you know more about it than people who have spent years researching into the subject and are interested in it?

Is this thread about Johnnie Hoskins at Crystal Palace? No.

 

Why, then, do you insist on introducing red herrings every time you post? By the way, where's the link to your article, or do you expect everyone to take what you say as Holy Writ? You've already been proven on this thread to be fast and loose with the truth. Is it simply that you are unable to back up your rhetoric, so you have to resort to bluster and bulldust?

 

I'm fed up to the back teeth with these constant personal attacks of yours, Norbold, let alone your poor writing style, for which you seem totally unrepentant; how on earth can you have the temerity to pretend to know what I'm thinking? If that's your style of debate then you can have it it on your own.

[norbold]

If that's your style of debate then you can have it it on your own.

 

Is that a promise, Dave? Phew!

[secsy1]

Please Oh Please dont end this wonderous debate, Rhetoric between 2 of the best posters on BSF is beyond compare.

 

I tune in specifically to read your posts and beleive me 90% of forum follower do so also.

 

Dont end it this way, I am sure their is still life in this debate and Dave can provide it..............................Please

[BigFatDave]

There's no point attempting to debate someone who refuses to debate, refuses to apologise for personal abuse and whenever caught out in falsehoods or sweeping statements persists in wandering off topic or introducing red herrings, Secsy. I worry about his credibility on a daily basis.

Edited December 4, 2011 by BigFatDave

[norbold]

Right then, to return to the main issue.

 

I think I would like to sum up my own view on the Johnnie Hoskins saga like this...

 

In my opinion there is no doubt that Johnnie Hoskins is a towering figure in the history of speedway. No-one doubts that he did much to advance speedway in the early pioneering days of the sport in Australia and he certainly did a lot to publicise the sport in this country from his arrival in 1928 right up until his death in 1987. You only have to read back copies of the speedway press to see what an enormous influence he had and the amount of publicity he generated. He helped bring speedway either to new tracks or to ones that had closed including Crystal Palace, Newcastle, Glasgow, New Cross and Canterbury (amongst others). He was a showman of the first order and could put thousands on the gate (when speedway crowds numbered in the thousands!) Johnnie Hoskins was a larger than life character who should be remembered fondly and in some reverence for the outstanding contribution he made to speedway.

 

What he did not do however was to invent the sport. The meeting at Maitland on 15 December 1923 was no different to dozens of other meetings that were being held and had been held at race tracks across Australia for at least a decade. The evidence for this statement is overwhelming and irrefutable. In my view to continue to pretend he did invent speedway does both him and the other pioneers of the sport a real injustice. Him, because the argument goes on and on over the Maitland meeting overshadowing all the other great things he did for speedway which tend to get lost in the controversy surrounding this. Others, because, of course, their names have been airbrushed out of history due to the ongoing debate over Hoskins's role.

 

Please let us remember Hoskins as the great speedway man he was for the great things he did for the sport and give him his rightful place as a speedway legend while at the same time recognising what he did not do and that other people were far more instrumental in actually founding the sport than he was and let's continue the real research into the origins of speedway, which is a fascinating subject in its own right.

[Humphrey Appleby]

What he did not do however was to invent the sport. The meeting at Maitland on 15 December 1923 was no different to dozens of other meetings that were being held and had been held at race tracks across Australia for at least a decade. The evidence for this statement is overwhelming and irrefutable. In my view to continue to pretend he did invent speedway does both him and the other pioneers of the sport a real injustice. Him, because the argument goes on and on over the Maitland meeting overshadowing all the other great things he did for speedway which tend to get lost in the controversy surrounding this. Others, because, of course, their names have been airbrushed out of history due to the ongoing debate over Hoskins's role.

 

What would be interesting to know, is why did this legend of Johnnie Hoskins arise in the first place? Did he actually claim to have invented the sport himself (or is that another legend), and if so, why would such a claim be taken at face value in light of other evidence?

[norbold]

Yes, Johnnie Hoskins himself claimed to have invented the sport. Remember what I said above that he was a great publicist and showman. As well as publicising speedway he wasn't averse to publicising himself! I'm not really sure that anyone was really that interested or really looked into it in the early days and just took his claim, which he made many years later, at face value. The origins had been forgotten by then. As I said above, A J Hunting also claimed to have invented the sport in the interview he gave to John Addison, Sports Editor of The People, and published in the 1948 People Speedway Guide. He was wrong as well! But by then A J Hunting was more or less a forgotten name anyway, whereas Hoskins was still going strong.

 

Hoskins's account of what happened at Maitland is in his autobiography, "Speedway Walkabout", published in 1977. As well as the actual claim to have "invented" speedway there are several things about his account of how it all happened and that week at Maitland that just don't add up. But if you take the book as a whole it is, what I believe used to be termed, a rollicking good yarn and inventing speedway is just one of the many outlandish claims and stories in his book.

[Humphrey Appleby]

There's no point attempting to debate someone who refuses to debate, refuses to apologise for personal abuse and whenever caught out in falsehoods or sweeping statements persists in wandering off topic or introducing red herrings, Secsy. I worry about his credibility on a daily basis.

 

I struggle to understand what you're railing against here. Norbold and Ross have not tried to denigrate Johnnie Hoskins or the West Maitland legend, but merely attempted to find the actual origins of the sport.

 

I've read a couple of Norbold's books on other subjects and I've found them to be well researched and well written, so I've little doubt that he's done his homework. Ross I don't know personally, but he has a long background of historical research on various speedway fora, so I'd be willing to assume that he's well informed on the subject as well.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that in any historical research, you cannot entirely rely on claims made by individuals, recollections of associated individuals, and certainly not reguritated secondary information. That does not made this information valueless, but it has to be balanced against credible written sources.

 

However, even if one is not intimate with the primary sources, intutition would suggest that the claim of West Maitland being the birthplace of speedway is a bit unlikely. Sports are rarely invented but evolve from a variety of similiar games and activities, and even where you can date codification of the sport as we know it (as in cricket and football), that is clearly just a clarification of existing practices. Moreover, even in those cases, the sport continued to evolve over a number of years, to the extent that football played in the late-19th century would be almost unrecognisable from the modern game.

 

Anyway, back to the point. Motorcycles and trotting tracks had been around for years before West Maitland, and it seems utterly inconceivable that no-one thought to race around them on bikes prior to 1923. I had still assumed that the meeting on 15 December 1923 had certain facets that distinguished it from other forms of oval dirt track racing (e.g. floodlights, anti-clockwise running, was called 'speedway') and thus could be reasonably said to be the first speedway meeting. It's now quite apparent though, that even that's not the case and there's very little (if anything) to distinguish that meeting it from other similar events held elsewhere.

 

With respect to the 'invention' claim, I suppose it's possible that Johnnie Hoskins (and others) independently thought of the idea of oval motorcycle racing without knowledge of other events. However, in the unlikely event that were true, it would be remiss to ignore the other events when discussing the origins of the sport, otherwise we might as well believe in pixies and fairies and that Abner Doubleday really did invent baseball...

Edited December 6, 2011 by Humphrey Appleby

[Nigel]

To the untrained eye this looks remarkably like you're attacking the poster rather than the post, a hanging offence on the new 'Friendly' forum.

Incidentally I see you can't be bothered with spellcheck either; is this a common trait you share with Norbold?

 

Any time you need any lessons in creative writing, and judging by the majority of your posts you definitely need something, just give me a shout, Nigel, you too Norbold.

 

(Gentlemen sorry to interupt your sensible illuminating and well written posts. ..... but I cant resist)

 

As you hurl abuse at Norbold you have the gall to point an accusing finger at me.... a pox on you sir

 

I must appologise for my spelling but I only found one big typo that was 'Plato', it should have read.. Platopuss...... er is that how you spell it?

Edited December 6, 2011 by Nigel

[olddon]

From Ian Hoskins:

 

To those who are looking for me to defend the attacks upon my father, Johnnie Hoskins, I have done so in my next article for Classic Speedway. The issue is due out on October 14th and I am glad to see that there are other critics who rise to his defence as a pioneering speedway promoter apart from myself. I put it this way- if an un-named person allowed a field to be used by some motor cyclists to do a few circuits in 1920, what is the point in calling him the pioneer promoter of speedway if he never followed up by staging weekly events before the public as Johnnie did in 1923?

 

Speedway should have a birthdate to be recalled by riders and the public like football and cricket have. Johnnie gave such a date and promoted it boldly. He introduced broadsiding, cinder tracks, safety fences, rules of racing and peronality riders. He followed up by promoting at Newcastle, Sydney and Perth in 1927. He was a promoter in every sense of the word. I rest my case here and have more to say in my Classic article.

 

Ian Hoskins.

 

I'm sure everyone who's been to Maitland and seen the commemorative plaque under the Grandstand would agree - this is the birthplace of Motorcycle Speedway and Johnnie Hoskins was the Godfather.

 

 

This topic had an airing in 2006 on the New Zealand site at http://www.historicspeedway.co.nz/

This is Ian Hoskins comments in reply to the start of speedway debate:

“Further to your excellent article on the alleged origins of speedway racing, I thank you for allowing me the right of reply. I agree that various new 'historians' of the sport have felt it would gain them credit if they could debunk the story that speedway, as we know it today, truly began under my father's banner at West Maitland, NSW, Australia on Sunday, December 15th 1923.

“I agree that there were previous isolated motor cycle events that occurred earlier than this in Australia and even America. At least the historians have to be congratulated on their research into newspaper files. But, we may as well go back as far as the Circus Maximus in ancient Rome, where chariot racing was staged before factions of thousands of devoted supporters, who cheered their favorites on to victory in races that were likewise held in an anti-clockwise direction and had chariots broadsiding on the corners.

“Unfortunately for these scribes, none of the events they have dug out from the files, led anywhere. Whereas, Johnnie Hoskins was the first promoter to put up a cash reward for the winner at West Maitland, and from the huge turn-out this novel event generated, speedway began to form in Maitland with a cinder track, rules and regulations, and the broadsiding of bikes in the corners. No previous event inspired such a metamorphosis as this. Finally, there was professionalism in speedway, the rider could live from his earnings on the track, and men such as Ron Johnson, Billy Lamont and Vic Huxley, willingly left Australia to try their luck in England in l928.”

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

Edited February 24, 2012 by olddon

[kennylane]

This topic had an airing in 2006 on the New Zealand site at http://www.historicspeedway.co.nz/

This is Ian Hoskins comments in reply to the start of speedway debate:

“Further to your excellent article on the alleged origins of speedway racing, I thank you for allowing me the right of reply. I agree that various new 'historians' of the sport have felt it would gain them credit if they could debunk the story that speedway, as we know it today, truly began under my father's banner at West Maitland, NSW, Australia on Sunday, December 15th 1923.

“I agree that there were previous isolated motor cycle events that occurred earlier than this in Australia and even America. At least the historians have to be congratulated on their research into newspaper files. But, we may as well go back as far as the Circus Maximus in ancient Rome, where chariot racing was staged before factions of thousands of devoted supporters, who cheered their favorites on to victory in races that were likewise held in an anti-clockwise direction and had chariots broadsiding on the corners.

“Unfortunately for these scribes, none of the events they have dug out from the files, led anywhere. Whereas, Johnnie Hoskins was the first promoter to put up a cash reward for the winner at West Maitland, and from the huge turn-out this novel event generated, speedway began to form in Maitland with a cinder track, rules and regulations, and the broadsiding of bikes in the corners. No previous event inspired such a metamorphosis as this. Finally, there was professionalism in speedway, the rider could live from his earnings on the track, and men such as Ron Johnson, Billy Lamont and Vic Huxley, willingly left Australia to try their luck in England in l928.”

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

More credence here to the claims made by the pro-Hoskins Brigade IMO.

[olddon]

This topic had an airing in 2006 on the New Zealand site at http://www.historicspeedway.co.nz/

This is Ian Hoskins comments in reply to the start of speedway debate:

“Further to your excellent article on the alleged origins of speedway racing, I thank you for allowing me the right of reply. I agree that various new 'historians' of the sport have felt it would gain them credit if they could debunk the story that speedway, as we know it today, truly began under my father's banner at West Maitland, NSW, Australia on Sunday, December 15th 1923.

“I agree that there were previous isolated motor cycle events that occurred earlier than this in Australia and even America. At least the historians have to be congratulated on their research into newspaper files. But, we may as well go back as far as the Circus Maximus in ancient Rome, where chariot racing was staged before factions of thousands of devoted supporters, who cheered their favorites on to victory in races that were likewise held in an anti-clockwise direction and had chariots broadsiding on the corners.

“Unfortunately for these scribes, none of the events they have dug out from the files, led anywhere. Whereas, Johnnie Hoskins was the first promoter to put up a cash reward for the winner at West Maitland, and from the huge turn-out this novel event generated, speedway began to form in Maitland with a cinder track, rules and regulations, and the broadsiding of bikes in the corners. No previous event inspired such a metamorphosis as this. Finally, there was professionalism in speedway, the rider could live from his earnings on the track, and men such as Ron Johnson, Billy Lamont and Vic Huxley, willingly left Australia to try their luck in England in l928.”

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

The important thing to note in regard to Ian Hoskins'post is his acceptance that there had previously been forms of motorcycle track racing in the USA and Australia. But Ian then emphasises that what Johnnie Hoskins promoted at Maitland in December 1923 was an upgraded style of track motorcycle racing with broadsiding and anti-clockwise competition which was to prove to be the template for the development of speedway.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[norbold]

 

 

More credence here to the claims made by the pro-Hoskins Brigade IMO.

Shock horror! Hoskins is pro-Hoskins!

[kennylane]

Shock horror! Hoskins is pro-Hoskins!

 

I apologise for confusion but when I said "More credence here to the claims made by the pro-Hoskins Brigade IMO" I was referring to BigFatDave and Jack Keen not Ian Hoskins, the latter having stated his case rather well.

[olddon]

Besides Johnnie Hoskins' influence in regard to Maitland in 1923, there is substantial evidence in his writings that he played a key role in popularising speedway on the USA's East Coast in 1933. Johnnie was a major figure in getting speedway organised at the Brooklyn Stadium, Coney Island, that year.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

Edited March 6, 2012 by olddon

[kennylane]

Besides Johnnie Hoskins' influence in regard to Maitland in 1923, there is substantial evidence in his writings that he played a key role in popularising speedway on the USA's East Coast in 1933. Johnnie was a major figure in getting speedway organised at the Brooklyn Stadium, Coney Island, that year.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

Not according to your latest finding on the oldtimespeedway yahoo site as follows:

 

 

--- In oldtimespeedway@yahoogroups.com, "jack.keen@..." <jack.keen@...> wrote:

 

Source: THE TELEGRAPH, March 8, 2012;;;

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;RE - JACK ORMSTON -

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

NO mention of Coney Island, USA, but there is of Madison Square Gardens, New York

:::::::::::::

"In the winter of 1932-33 he led a British team to Australia, winning the individual unofficial world series in Sydney. As he paraded the trophy around the track he was roundly booed, a reflection not only of the traditional Aussie reaction to being beaten by a Pom, but also of the anti-English feeling whipped up that winter by the "bodyline" cricket series. With the Australian rider Frank Arthur, Ormston then formed a company, with the support of the manager and promoter Johnnie Hoskins, to take a group of riders to New York with a view to operating speedway at Madison Square Garden.

"Despite the harassments of Tammany Hall and the Mafia (everyone wanted a share of the action) they succeeded in getting an option for "the Garden" and prospects looked good. Then Ormston received a telegram telling him that his father was seriously ill; he immediately left for England, arriving home in time to see his father, who died that same evening. Without Ormston's leadership and money, the New York venture collapsed."

 

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

This topic had an airing in 2006 on the New Zealand site at http://www.historicspeedway.co.nz/

This is Ian Hoskins comments in reply to the start of speedway debate:

“Further to your excellent article on the alleged origins of speedway racing, I thank you for allowing me the right of reply. I agree that various new 'historians' of the sport have felt it would gain them credit if they could debunk the story that speedway, as we know it today, truly began under my father's banner at West Maitland, NSW, Australia on Sunday, December 15th 1923.

“I agree that there were previous isolated motor cycle events that occurred earlier than this in Australia and even America. At least the historians have to be congratulated on their research into newspaper files. But, we may as well go back as far as the Circus Maximus in ancient Rome, where chariot racing was staged before factions of thousands of devoted supporters, who cheered their favorites on to victory in races that were likewise held in an anti-clockwise direction and had chariots broadsiding on the corners.

“Unfortunately for these scribes, none of the events they have dug out from the files, led anywhere. Whereas, Johnnie Hoskins was the first promoter to put up a cash reward for the winner at West Maitland, and from the huge turn-out this novel event generated, speedway began to form in Maitland with a cinder track, rules and regulations, and the broadsiding of bikes in the corners. No previous event inspired such a metamorphosis as this. Finally, there was professionalism in speedway, the rider could live from his earnings on the track, and men such as Ron Johnson, Billy Lamont and Vic Huxley, willingly left Australia to try their luck in England in l928.”

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

This writing by Ian Hoskins looks pretty definitive to me and as he obviously knew Johnnie Hoskins far better than anyone else his opinions deserve respect and to be accepted. I think the last paragraph is of great importance and summarises adequately how he feels about those who seek to belittle his father's pioneering efforts to create and then further establish speedway racing.

[olddon]

I think this should be a closed debate now. It was supposed to be a forthcoming article by Ian Hoskins in a copy of 'Classic Speedway' before Christmas 2011. However, the debate is still going strongly in this section. For all the latest comments I suggest you look as follows

 

Years Gone By

History of Speedway, including defunct tracks, famous riders, classic meetings.

Maitland Speedway Anniversary

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

Edited March 15, 2012 by olddon

[The White Knight]

I think this should be a closed debate now. It was supposed to be a forthcoming article by Ian Hoskins in a copy of 'Classic Speedway' before Christmas 2011. However, the debate is still going strongly in this section. For all the latest comments I suggest you look as follows

                                        

Years Gone By

History of Speedway, including defunct tracks, famous riders, classic meetings.                                        

Maitland Speedway Anniversary

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

Agreed.

[olddon]

I think this should be a closed debate now. It was supposed to be a forthcoming article by Ian Hoskins in a copy of 'Classic Speedway' before Christmas 2011. However, the debate is still going strongly in this section. For all the latest comments I suggest you look as follows

 

Years Gone By

History of Speedway, including defunct tracks, famous riders, classic meetings.

Maitland Speedway Anniversary

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

Maitland Speedway Anniversary - see YEARS GONE BY. The quote will give you more exciting data on the claims regarding Johnnie Hoskins at Maitland in December 1923. Enjoy! JACK KEEN,ERITH, KENT

Edited April 14, 2012 by olddon