Next Issue Of Classic Speedway - Oct 2011

[olddon]

Go to http://manchesterhistory.net/bellevue/hoskins.html and read the original of this (a change from wikipedia for me).

 

Johnnie Hoskins

Johnnie Hoskins played a major role in the introduction of both dirt track motorcycle racing and stock car racing into the UK.

 

Hoskins was born in New Zealand and moved to Australia in the early years of the Twentieth Century. His speciality was publicity and throughout his life Hoskins was a driving force ever ready to promote another innovation.

 

Motor cycle racing had started as early as 1909 in Australia, although at that time it was on an asphalt surface. Grass track racing appeared in 1917. It was in 1923 though, in New South Wales, that the secretary of the West Maitland Agricultural Show, a keen motor cycle rider, Johnny Hoskins, introduced racing on a dirt track under lights. Speedway was born.

 

Hoskins' next move was to Newcastle, Australia, where he laid out the first red shale track and from there he took the sport to Sydney and Perth.

 

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[norbold]

Go to http://manchesterhistory.net/bellevue/hoskins.html and read the original of this (a change from wikipedia for me).

 

Johnnie Hoskins

Johnnie Hoskins played a major role in the introduction of both dirt track motorcycle racing and stock car racing into the UK.

 

Hoskins was born in New Zealand and moved to Australia in the early years of the Twentieth Century. His speciality was publicity and throughout his life Hoskins was a driving force ever ready to promote another innovation.

 

Motor cycle racing had started as early as 1909 in Australia, although at that time it was on an asphalt surface. Grass track racing appeared in 1917. It was in 1923 though, in New South Wales, that the secretary of the West Maitland Agricultural Show, a keen motor cycle rider, Johnny Hoskins, introduced racing on a dirt track under lights. Speedway was born.

 

Hoskins' next move was to Newcastle, Australia, where he laid out the first red shale track and from there he took the sport to Sydney and Perth.

 

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

Well that highly authoritative source is proof for me....

[Ross Garrigan]

Go to http://manchesterhistory.net/bellevue/hoskins.html and read the original of this (a change from wikipedia for me).

 

Johnnie Hoskins

Johnnie Hoskins played a major role in the introduction of both dirt track motorcycle racing and stock car racing into the UK.

 

Hoskins was born in New Zealand and moved to Australia in the early years of the Twentieth Century. His speciality was publicity and throughout his life Hoskins was a driving force ever ready to promote another innovation.

 

Motor cycle racing had started as early as 1909 in Australia, although at that time it was on an asphalt surface. Grass track racing appeared in 1917. It was in 1923 though, in New South Wales, that the secretary of the West Maitland Agricultural Show, a keen motor cycle rider, Johnny Hoskins, introduced racing on a dirt track under lights. Speedway was born.

 

Hoskins' next move was to Newcastle, Australia, where he laid out the first red shale track and from there he took the sport to Sydney and Perth.

 

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

Johnnie Hoskins played a major role in the introduction of dirt track motor cycle racing into the UK did he? If we are talking about 1928 here, Hoskins was a "bit player" at best.

 

The third paragraph should also be filed away in the "fiction" department. Motor cycles were racing on sports grounds in Australia years before 1909, and the surface wasn't asphalt. So, grass track racing commenced in Australia in 1917? No, it was earlier than that. In 1923 Johnnie Hoskins introduced motor cycle racing on a dirt track and under lights at Maitland did he? Wrong - the surface was grass. I hope thinking people would question the comment that "speedway was born" at Maitland in 1923.

 

Then the last paragraph - the wording could create the incorrect impression, or maybe the writer didn't know better when he wrote it.

Hoskins did not leave Maitland to go to Newcastle, he left Maitland to take up a position in Sydney, a job not connected with motor cycle racing. He left that Sydney job to take up the position as Secretary to the promotion which had built and opened the track at Newcastle. He took up that post after the racing season had commenced.

 

There are some who think Hoskins built the speedway at Newcastle and ran the operation himself. I have the list of Directors of the company which built and opened the speedway - Hoskins is not mentioned.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Ross Garrigan

[olddon]

Johnnie Hoskins played a major role in the introduction of dirt track motor cycle racing into the UK did he? If we are talking about 1928 here, Hoskins was a "bit player" at best.

 

The third paragraph should also be filed away in the "fiction" department. Motor cycles were racing on sports grounds in Australia years before 1909, and the surface wasn't asphalt. So, grass track racing commenced in Australia in 1917? No, it was earlier than that. In 1923 Johnnie Hoskins introduced motor cycle racing on a dirt track and under lights at Maitland did he? Wrong - the surface was grass. I hope thinking people would question the comment that "speedway was born" at Maitland in 1923.

 

Then the last paragraph - the wording could create the incorrect impression, or maybe the writer didn't know better when he wrote it.

Hoskins did not leave Maitland to go to Newcastle, he left Maitland to take up a position in Sydney, a job not connected with motor cycle racing. He left that Sydney job to take up the position as Secretary to the promotion which had built and opened the track at Newcastle. He took up that post after the racing season had commenced.

 

There are some who think Hoskins built the speedway at Newcastle and ran the operation himself. I have the list of Directors of the company which built and opened the speedway - Hoskins is not mentioned.

 

If you want to find out more on Belle Vue, Manchester in general, and a mention of White City, here's the main link into the site that features Johnnie Hoskins.

 

http://manchesterhistory.net

 

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

Edited November 19, 2011 by olddon

[olddon]

Well that highly authoritative source is proof for me....

 

 

For more information, this main link to the site may interest you?

 

http://manchesterhistory.net

 

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[norbold]

Thank you for the link, olddon. I see the site says, "On Saturday, June 16 of 1928 though, Joe Carley1 reports that he "visited White City, Old Trafford, to see the very first Speedway meeting held in Manchester."

 

Leaving aside the disputed meeting at Droylsden on 25 June 1927, a speedway meeting was held at Audenshaw, Manchester, on 3 March 1928 (over three months before the meeting at White City). Amongst those taking part were Keith McKay, Billy Galloway, Alec Jackson, Ginger Lees, Bob Harrison and Acorn Dobson.

 

You see, Jack, you can't always rely on people's memories.

[Ross Garrigan]

Thank you for the link, olddon. I see the site says, "On Saturday, June 16 of 1928 though, Joe Carley1 reports that he "visited White City, Old Trafford, to see the very first Speedway meeting held in Manchester."

 

Leaving aside the disputed meeting at Droylsden on 25 June 1927, a speedway meeting was held at Audenshaw, Manchester, on 3 March 1928 (over three months before the meeting at White City). Amongst those taking part were Keith McKay, Billy Galloway, Alec Jackson, Ginger Lees, Bob Harrison and Acorn Dobson.

 

You see, Jack, you can't always rely on people's memories.

 

Norman, how right you are. Memories, hear-say and folk law can't be relied upon as being historically accurate.

 

During my years of research I constantly came across written comments, and even had some made to me by former riders' family and friends, which were not accurate. Lionel Van Praag, Ron Johnson, Bluey Wilkinson, Bill Kitchen, Vic Huxley, and Jack Young are just some former greats I carried out research on and encountered the problem of faulty memories. When researching Bluey Wilkinson's first season racing in the UK (1929) I found a 1930 interview he gave on the subject of his arrival in England the previous year. His memory had let him down in just 12 months. Riders, and riders' family and friends, who comment years, and even decades, after events take place, are prone to passing on inaccurate comment.

 

I put those who write on the subject of speedway history in two baskets, those who read and regurgitate what others have already written on a subject, and those who make the time and effort to do the research themselves. The former group are the ones who perpetuate speedway myths as they are just reproducing what others have already written. The material they use is only as accurate as what others have already used. I don't consider these type of speedway writers to be "historians". I admire immensely the second group of speedway history writers, and I have the honour of numbering about a dozen of these people as friends. People would be horrified if I was to relate how much money my decade-long speedway research has cost me, the figure runs into thousands of Australian dollars. My research and documentation of Bluey Wilkinson's first season racing in the UK took nearly five years. I set out originally to disprove yet another Johnnie Hoskins' myth, this one concerning Wilkinson, and knew what I wanted and didn't give up until I found it. My research and documentation of Jack Young's early life and his racing career from his debut meeting in South Australia to the winning of his first World Championship took me five years. How much easier and cheaper these tasks would have been if I had just read what others have already written on the subjects and then made a compilation of the material. It may have been easier and cheaper, but it wouldn't have been as informative and more historically accurate.

 

Addition to posting: -

 

The Bluey Wilkinson story I referred to above was published in 2008 and I also gave permission for its inclusion on a West Ham website. For those interested in Bluey Wilkinson, here is the website link: -

 

 

http://www.freewebs.com/customhousekid/bluey1929.htm

Edited November 20, 2011 by Ross Garrigan

[norbold]

Just remembered, thanks to prompting from Nigel, an article published in the 1948 People Speedway Guide written by John Addison, Sports Editor of The People. It begins:

 

"They called it dirt track racing in the early days. But no-one seems to know when the sport began. Johnnie Hoskins, Grand Old Man of the Speedway has decided that the first meeting of all was in November 1923, at West Maitland. I wonder now, going back through the hazy, petrol-ridden, cinder-showered past whether or not the great John S. Hoskins has slipped...." He then goes on to write about a conversation he had with A. J Hunting who also claimed to have "invented" speedway.

 

Dear me, how confusing. Seeing as how we have established above that people's memories are infallible, what are we to make of this?

Edited November 27, 2011 by norbold

[Ross Garrigan]

Norman and I have made comments on this thread concerning the sometimes historically inaccurate statements made in Wikipedia listings. Here is further proof of what Norman and I said. In Brisbane's newspaper yesterday (Sunday November 27, 2011) appeared an interview with British actor/comedian Alan Davies who is to visit us here in Australia. I quote from the article: -

 

"Don't trust Wikipedia. That's the advice from Alan Davies .... (Davies) ran into trouble when he tried to correct some entries on his own page. He was stopped in his tracks by a keen young fan ......"

 

Davies commented in the newspaper article: -

 

"I spent some time trying to edit and remove things and add things and change it, and each time my attempts to edit it were changed, and eventually I was banned from editing my own page. And some stupid kid, he's about 20, has taken it upon himself to defend my page from me."

[olddon]

Here's an interesting snippett from a site whose link I cannot give under the new guidelines for the BSF. But in its magazine reprint section there is an article by then New Cross promoter Fred Mockford which appeared on page 6 of the 'Monthly Speedway World' for June 1949. In it Mockford claims that he brought Johnnie Hoskins to England in early 1928 for a management role at Crystal Palace along with three Australian riders, Ron Johnson, Charlie Datson and Sig Schlam. The Palace staged its first speedway meeting on May 19 1928. So, subject to the disprovers (!!), we now know how Johnnie came to England.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

Edited November 29, 2011 by olddon

[Ross Garrigan]

Here's an interesting snippett from a site whose link I cannot give under the new guidelines for the BSF. But in its magazine reprint section there is an article by then New Cross promoter Fred Mockford which appeared on page 6 of the 'Monthly Speedway World' for June 1949. In it Mockford claims that he brought Johnnie Hoskins to England in early 1928 for a management role at Crystal Palace along with three Australian riders, Ron Johnson, Charlie Datson and Sig Schlam. The Palace staged its first speedway meeting on May 19 1928. So, subject to the disprovers (!!), we now know how Johnnie came to England.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

Jack, it has never been a secret how/when Johnnie Hoskins sailed to England in 1928. Nearly 8 years ago the following was the opening of a story I wrote about that very occasion. You will notice the date of the proposed opening of Crystal Palace was originally May 12. The opening was deferred for a week to May 19: -

 

The week prior to his departure for England in April 1928, Johnnie Hoskins gave an interview which was featured in the West Australian newspaper under the heading “AUSTRALIAN INVASION.”

 

The article opens as follows: -

 

“On the eve of his departure to England on the Oronsay on Tuesday night, the managing director of W.A. Speedways Ltd (Mr. J. Hoskins), in a special interview, looked forward to the possibilities of this sport in England and reviewed the past history of dirt tracks in Australia.”

 

Another extract: -

 

“Mr. Hoskins is taking with him S. Schlam, C. Datson and R. Johnson, Perth’s leading dirt track riders, and is under contract with the Crystal Palace Co. for its opening night on May 12, only with the possibility of then entering into further contracts. The riders will be paid appearance money on that night, will compete in match races to the value of 100 pounds, and have the possibility of winning other prizes. Mr. Hoskins will act as adviser to the promoters.”

Edited November 29, 2011 by Ross Garrigan

[olddon]

I never claimed anything unique for my post about Johnnie Hoskins and the comment by Fred Mockford in the 1949 edition of 'Monthly Speedway World.' More was I indicating that the availability of material like this is an aid to researchers. And, so far as the first meeting at Crystal Palace is concerned, if it was postponed from May 12 to May 19, then the latter is obviously the opening date. Or are you now splitting hairs?

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[Ross Garrigan]

I never claimed anything unique for my post about Johnnie Hoskins and the comment by Fred Mockford in the 1949 edition of 'Monthly Speedway World.' More was I indicating that the availability of material like this is an aid to researchers. And, so far as the first meeting at Crystal Palace is concerned, if it was postponed from May 12 to May 19, then the latter is obviously the opening date. Or are you now splitting hairs?

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

Jack, you do read too much into comments posted on this topic. There is no need to go all defensive and come out with guns blazing, I just thought you and others may have been interested to read actual comments made by Hoskins. I was not "splitting hairs" and I at time no time said you claimed anything in your post was "unique". It really is difficult to have a discourse with some people. If you find something objectionable with this posting, I have no doubt you will vent your spleen again. BUT, be assured, I won't be returning here. I have better things to do with my time.

[BigFatDave]

Oh, look! Here's a quote from yesterday's Maitland Mercury - "The 2011 Boxing Day Speedway Spectacular (ed. at Kurri Kurri) kick starts a super summer of racing at the track, which is located nine kilometres from where the sport was born at Maitland Sportsground in 1923."

Edited November 30, 2011 by BigFatDave

[norbold]

while we poor punters will have to put up with reading the odd newspaper to keep informed.

 

I hope that includes the Maitland Mercury from 17 December 1923, Dave.

 

Incidentally you can read the full story of Johnnie Hoskins's involvement with Crystal Palace and how it came about it the article I wrote for Speedway Star back in 2010. That's another newspaper article you could read, Dave.

[olddon]

Jack, you do read too much into comments posted on this topic. There is no need to go all defensive and come out with guns blazing, I just thought you and others may have been interested to read actual comments made by Hoskins. I was not "splitting hairs" and I at time no time said you claimed anything in your post was "unique". It really is difficult to have a discourse with some people. If you find something objectionable with this posting, I have no doubt you will vent your spleen again. BUT, be assured, I won't be returning here. I have better things to do with my time.

 

It seems I have upset roccsie on his traditional home site. He even calls me oldun! It does all get rather petty with these guys on there. To them debate is agreeing with everything they say - not accepting there are alternative opinions.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[BigFatDave]

It seems I have upset roccsie on his traditional home site. He even calls me oldun! It does all get rather petty with these guys on there. To them debate is agreeing with everything they say - not accepting there are alternative opinions.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

You're all right, Jack!

[Nigel]

It seems I have upset roccsie on his traditional home site. He even calls me oldun! It does all get rather petty with these guys on there. To them debate is agreeing with everything they say - not accepting there are alternative opinions.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

Sez the man who should put his own house in order first, with respect to all the above quote . I respectfully suggest you lean the difference betweem facts and opinion.

 

Sez the man who point blankly refuses to accept facts or to accept opinions other than his own and attempts to trivialise those who give an honest and friendly presentation of facts.

 

 

Christian charity Huh!

Edited December 1, 2011 by Nigel

[Nigel]

You're all right, Jack!

 

Such stunning oratory, oh the superb rhetoric, I am left gasping with admiration, move over Plato.......

Edited December 1, 2011 by Nigel

[BigFatDave]

I hope that includes the Maitland Mercury from 17 December 1923, Dave.

It's exactly what I said it is, nothing more, nothing less, Norbold. Of course you can and no doubt will read into it what you will, it won't make a skerrick of difference.

 

 

Incidentally you can read the full story of Johnnie Hoskins's involvement with Crystal Palace and how it came about it the article I wrote for Speedway Star back in 2010. That's another newspaper article you could read, Dave.

 

Another of your misspelt or ungrammatical Red Herrings, Norbold? Too much trouble to spellcheck? If that's an example of your published writing style I've got absolutely no desire to read it, come back when you've fixed your errata. Is the Speedway Star a newspaper now? Is it available on line? If so, post a link. If not, why on earth would I go to all the expense and trouble of sourcing a back copy just to read your particular slant, doubtless rewriting history again, on a topic I have absolutely no interest in?

 

Sez the man who should put his own house in order first, with respect to all the above quote . I respectfully suggest you lean the difference betweem facts and opinion.

 

Sez the man who point blankly refuses to accept facts or to accept opinions other than his own and attempts to trivialise those who give an honest and friendly presentation of facts.

 

 

Christian charity Huh!

To the untrained eye this looks remarkably like you're attacking the poster rather than the post, a hanging offence on the new 'Friendly' forum.

Incidentally I see you can't be bothered with spellcheck either; is this a common trait you share with Norbold?

 

 

 

 

Such stunning oratory, oh the superb rhetoric, I am left gasping with admiration, move over Plato.......

Any time you need any lessons in creative writing, and judging by the majority of your posts you definitely need something, just give me a shout, Nigel, you too Norbold.

Edited December 2, 2011 by BigFatDave