Next Issue Of Classic Speedway - Oct 2011

[norbold]

Anyway, Dave, let's do a deal and start again. I promise to keep on topic if you do.

 

To start us off on our new found relationship, perhaps you can explain why you think the meeting on 15 December 1923 was the first to be held "under the banner of SPEEDWAY"?

[Nigel]

He wasn't in Sainsburys today.

 

 

I am sure - actually - HE WAS.

 

 

I was in Tescos

[BigFatDave]

I just reply to what you write, Dave. If the replies are off topic it must be because your posts are.

Let me get this straight: who introduced Religion into this thread - why it was YOU, in response to no-one but your own ego. Must be awfully lonely up there on the High Moral Ground.

Anyway, Dave, let's do a deal and start again. I promise to keep on topic if you do.

 

To start us off on our new found relationship, perhaps you can explain why you think the meeting on 15 December 1923 was the first to be held "under the banner of SPEEDWAY"?

Once again you make an untrue statement, then follow it up with a question. I'm still waiting for my apology and your reasoning behind your statement in post #132 that what I said in the first post on this thread was untrue, when in fact it wasn't.

You might be happy rewriting history in your own image, but until you can back up your grandiose sweeping statements and blatant lies you can poke your constant nit-picking questions where the sun doesn't shine. Are you sure you're not Impartial One in disguise?

Edited November 4, 2011 by BigFatDave

[norbold]

 

Once again you make an untrue statement, then follow it up with a question. I'm still waiting for my apology and your reasoning behind your statement in post #132 that what I said in the first post on this thread was untrue, when in fact it wasn't.

You might be happy rewriting history in your own image, but until you can back up your grandiose sweeping statements and blatant lies you can poke your constant nit-picking questions where the sun doesn't shine. Are you sure you're not Impartial One in disguise?

So, what you're saying is that you can't actually back up your statement that the meeting on 15 December 1923 was the first held under the banner of speedway.

[norbold]

 

I'm still waiting for my apology and your reasoning behind your statement in post #132 that what I said in the first post on this thread was untrue, when in fact it wasn't.

 

 

This is what you said in your first post:

 

From Ian Hoskins:

 

To those who are looking for me to defend the attacks upon my father, Johnnie Hoskins, I have done so in my next article for Classic Speedway. The issue is due out on October 14th and I am glad to see that there are other critics who rise to his defence as a pioneering speedway promoter apart from myself. I put it this way- if an un-named person allowed a field to be used by some motor cyclists to do a few circuits in 1920, what is the point in calling him the pioneer promoter of speedway if he never followed up by staging weekly events before the public as Johnnie did in 1923?

 

Speedway should have a birthdate to be recalled by riders and the public like football and cricket have. Johnnie gave such a date and promoted it boldly. He introduced broadsiding, cinder tracks, safety fences, rules of racing and peronality riders. He followed up by promoting at Newcastle, Sydney and Perth in 1927. He was a promoter in every sense of the word. I rest my case here and have more to say in my Classic article.

 

Ian Hoskins.

 

 

Once I'd actually read the article I said, in post 132:

 

Actually it's quite an anti-climax. It doesn't say what BFD says in the post that started this thread off. Actually, I wouldn't disagree too much with what Ian says in his article. In fact, I've already said it above. Firstly that the importance of the West Maitland meeting was that it was the start of "continuity" and secondly that he subsequently promoted speedway at other locations across Australia. The only thing I would say is that when he says, he "left a trail that led to High Beech in England and from there, the world..." of course he had nothing directly to do with the High Beech meeting and, although the role he played as a promoter in Australia was very important, it gives no credit to the other great Australian promoter of the time, A J Hunting, who subsequently had a much bigger influence on the early days of speedway as an organised sport in England.

 

The rest of the article is about how Johnnie Hoskins opened up Odsal and Newcastle and re-introduced speedway to Scotland at Glasgow after the War. All of which, as far as I know, is true. As I keep saying I have the greatest respect for Johnnie Hoskins as a promoter. He was a great promoter, who as Ian says in the article, took great risks. Speedway would have been all the poorer without him. He lived and breathed speedway, no-one has ever denied this. But it doesn't mean that the meeting on 15 December 1923 was any different to dozens of meetings that had already been held in Australia and America and there is no way that Johnnie Hoskins could be said to have "invented" speedway. A great promoter, yes; a great publicist, yes; but not an inventor.

 

I didn't say that what you said was untrue. What I said was that the article didn't say what you had said in your first post when reporting what Ian Hoskins had said. Nowhere in the article does it say, "Speedway should have a birthdate to be recalled by riders and the public like football and cricket have. Johnnie gave such a date and promoted it boldly. He introduced broadsiding, cinder tracks, safety fences, rules of racing and peronality riders. He followed up by promoting at Newcastle, Sydney and Perth in 1927. He was a promoter in every sense of the word," which is what most of the subsequent discussion on this thread was about.

 

I realise you have the disadvantage of not having read the actual article, but I have and let me assure you again that the article nowhere says, " "Speedway should have a birthdate to be recalled by riders and the public like football and cricket have. Johnnie gave such a date and promoted it boldly. He introduced broadsiding, cinder tracks, safety fences, rules of racing and personality riders. He followed up by promoting at Newcastle, Sydney and Perth in 1927. He was a promoter in every sense of the word."

 

That's what I was talking about. What I said was true, so I see nothing to apologise for.

[BigFatDave]

So, what you're saying is that you can't actually back up your statement that the meeting on 15 December 1923 was the first held under the banner of speedway.

Easy cop-out again mate, answering statements with questions. You can twist your words around as much as you like, no-one's listening to you any more, ol' feller.

[norbold]

If it makes you happy to think so, Dave, carry on. (Though, actually, I can't help thinking that people are more interested in furthering the debate on Johnnie Hoskins's role in the origins of speedway than in whether I apologise to you or not and therefore would be much more interested in an answer from you to the question I have asked than in your constant prevarication).

 

Anyway, I did answer your substantive point in my next post which, although much longer than the one you have chosen to reply to, you seem to have somehow overlooked.

[The White Knight]

Come on Chaps.

 

Speedway is a Sport for our enjoyment - not for us to keep sniping at each other. Perhaps the two of you, BOTH of whom I respect, could perhaps agree to differ and move on.

 

It grieves me to see two obviously keen and enthusiastic lovers of our Sport having a go at each other.

[BigFatDave]

Come on Chaps.

 

Speedway is a Sport for our enjoyment - not for us to keep sniping at each other. Perhaps the two of you, BOTH of whom I respect, could perhaps agree to differ and move on.

 

It grieves me to see two obviously keen and enthusiastic lovers of our Sport having a go at each other.

I've given up on him, Ian - anyone who dares to disagree with him, including one person who actually took part in the 1923 meeting, is either senile or deluded - just ask him.

[norbold]

Sorry, White Knight. I know you are right, but all I ever wanted was to discuss Johnnie Hoskins role in the origins of speedway. BFD made a statement early on that the meeting on 15 December 1923 was the first to be held under the banner of speedway, which, if true, would add to the argument that Hoskins "invented" speedway. I have asked BFD several times what evidence he has for saying this as it will help towards understanding the place of that meeting in speedway history but every time he falls back on some pretext to avoid answering the question.

 

The only first hand evidence I have seen of that meeting is, as I have already said, the report of the meeting in the Monday December 17, 1923 edition of the Maitland Daily Mercury. Nowhere is the word speedway mentioned; it is referred to as motor-cycle racing throughout. In addition the paper adds the information that "several other tracks have been used for this kind of sport on a number of occasions". Now, this seems to me to be pretty clear cut that the meeting on 15 December 1923 was not the first of its kind, nor was it called speedway. All I am trying to get from BFD is more information to support his statement that this meeting was the first to be held under the banner of speedway. As a historian, interested in facts, that's all I am asking. Is it too much?

Edited November 6, 2011 by norbold

[iris123]

To move this on a bit.I would like to know about the motorcycle racing in Australia before and around the time of Maitland.We know there we different surfaces,but what of the races themselves?Was it a case of anyone with a motorbike turning up and racing or where there different classes?Where there differing numbers of riders or was it the classic 4 riders that we know now?When was 'speedway' officially recognised in Australia?Like maybe when did Speedway have an official organising body or was affiliated into the Australian Motorcycle Union or whatever it was back then.Or did this only happen recently in the 70s when Australia went into the WTC?Not that this helps with any argument,just would like to know what sort of racing was being presented to the public

[norbold]

The report of the meeting on 15 December shows there were three motor-cycle racing events. The first was a three quarter mile event; the second a two mile event and the third a four mile event. The first two events were handicap events; I'm not sure about the third. No handicaps are shown for the four mile event. I don't know how many riders there were in each race; the newspaper only records the first three. As far as I know the Maitland track was grass. I should add that as well as the motor-cycle racing there was cart racing, bicycle racing, trotting races, athletics events and something called "Threading the Needle" race.

 

In the early days, other Carnival event programmes seem to consist of much the same sort of motor-cycle racing and other events. Thebarton Oval (South Australia) held several similar events from 1921 onwards, also on grass, but by January 1923 (11 months before the Maitland meeting), the surface had been converted to cinders, so was a proper (what we would now call) dirt track. This meeting was held under floodlights.

[Humphrey Appleby]

Like maybe when did Speedway have an official organising body or was affiliated into the Australian Motorcycle Union or whatever it was back then.Or did this only happen recently in the 70s when Australia went into the WTC?Not that this helps with any argument,just would like to know what sort of racing was being presented to the public

 

Motorcycling Australia (formerly Auto Cycle Council of Australia) claims a foundation date of 1928. Indeed, MA's own website indicates speedway was the first form of professional competition, so it's not beyond the stretch of imagination that a federation was formed to regulate speedway or whatever it happened to be called at the time.

 

ACCA affiliated directly with the FIM in 1975, so presumably it previously affiliated through the ACU as a national club.

[Nigel]

To move this on a bit.I would like to know about the motorcycle racing in Australia before and around the time of Maitland.We know there we different surfaces,but what of the races themselves?Was it a case of anyone with a motorbike turning up and racing or where there different classes?Where there differing numbers of riders or was it the classic 4 riders that we know now?When was 'speedway' officially recognised in Australia?Like maybe when did Speedway have an official organising body or was affiliated into the Australian Motorcycle Union or whatever it was back then.Or did this only happen recently in the 70s when Australia went into the WTC?Not that this helps with any argument,just would like to know what sort of racing was being presented to the public

 

'Oval racing In OZ'

Motorcycle racing on oval tracks started around 1902 although this is not a definitive date. Banked wooden and concrete cycle tracks were used for racing what were little more than motorised bicycles. Many sports fields, football and cricket pitches were surrounded by hard rolled cinder tracks which were used for cycling and athletics, they also saw racing. Some type of board track racing seems to have taken place in Oz but not as the Americans would know it. Horse trotting or harness racing as it is called was popular and many tracks existed, usually between half to one mile in length. The surface was, it seems, mostly grass although some may have been rolled dirt. How much grass was left on the turns can only be guessed at. On the country tracks and/or club meetings I think it would be a case of racing whatever you turned up on. At the more serious meetings bikes were I suggest more like their American counterparts, no brakes no gears etc. real dirt bikes. There may have been as many as 12 riders per race or as little as 2. Maitland was a Grass covered trotting track. In Oz racing on these tracks probably started before the First World War as it did in most civilised countries, except it seems Great Britain.

New Zealand also had grass covered Trotting tracks; I have a photo of Ray Crawley seated on an American Excelsior Dirt Bike ....no brakes etc. at a grass covered track, the date 1916

 

It was not Speedway as we know it (1923). That evolved during the next 4 years (Thank you Australia)

As for the first Floodlight meeting on an oval track, that honour I believe goes to the Americans who had done this before the First World War with Board Tracks.

 

Hope this is of some use.

 

It could be argued that Maitland was the catalyst that started it all in much the same way as High Beech. In my view Maitland was less of a Speedway meeting than High Beech and again to draw parallels I suggest Maitland was, like High Beech, down to a number of people and a particular set of circumstances.

It is seldom the case that one person did it all but is frequently the case that one person claims the credit.

Edited November 6, 2011 by Nigel

[iris123]

Does seem to be down to availability of Trotting tracks to some extent.I don't know how many there were in Britain back then.I have heard about motorcycle meetings on Trotting tracks in Germany and Austria around 1924.Would guess meetings were held in countries like Czechoslovakia as well.Not sure just when Pardubice opened,but i seems very different in the early years to the track we seee now.Much bigger.Just what sort of racing were the likes of Jack Parker and Gus Kuhn doing before the arrival of AJ Hunting?.The path racing at Crystal Palace for instance seems a very strange type of racing as i guess were the hill racing type meetings in the US and also Britain.At some early stage motorcycle racing started to evolve in different directions,but basically at that early stage oval track racing was the same animal,no matter how many riders or how big the track or what the surface or how many laps....

[norbold]

Funnily enough, the original intended venue for Jack Hill-Bailey and the Ilford Motor Cycle and Light Car Club's first meeting was a trotting track at Parsloes Park before it all fell through and they moved it to an old cycle track at High Beech.....

 

I believe Jack Parker was a trials rider before turning to speedway and Gus Kuhn was a road racer. He competed in the Isle of Man TT, coming 5th in the Junior Division in 1926.

Edited November 6, 2011 by norbold

[Nigel]

Does seem to be down to availability of Trotting tracks to some extent.I don't know how many there were in Britain back then.I have heard about motorcycle meetings on Trotting tracks in Germany and Austria around 1924.Would guess meetings were held in countries like Czechoslovakia as well.Not sure just when Pardubice opened,but i seems very different in the early years to the track we seee now.Much bigger.Just what sort of racing were the likes of Jack Parker and Gus Kuhn doing before the arrival of AJ Hunting?.The path racing at Crystal Palace for instance seems a very strange type of racing as i guess were the hill racing type meetings in the US and also Britain.At some early stage motorcycle racing started to evolve in different directions,but basically at that early stage oval track racing was the same animal,no matter how many riders or how big the track or what the surface or how many laps....

 

The Ilford clubs first choice of track was the disused Parsloes park trotting track.Permission for its use never granted.

In 1928 Blackpool and Greenford trotting tracks were used. The blurb in a 1928 Greenford programme says they believe that dirt track racing is best seen on big trotting tracks, were did that info come from (USA?) seeing as the Australians thought that 440yrds the optimum size. I have reports of dirt track racing on trotting tracks in Italy 1911 and South Africa as early as 1908. California 1902. Jack Parker I think only rode in Trials. Gus Kuhn(see his website)did road racing(TT), trials,Path racing and Grass track but this was a completely different animal to the grass track racing we know today.

 

edit:-whoops ...looks like you have beaten me to it Norbold

 

Whoops again ..I forgot to mention Audenshaw and Droylesdon although the later was not a trotting track in 1927 as is commonly believed.

Edited November 7, 2011 by Nigel

[Nigel]

I found some forgotten items in my computor files...a cutting for two adverts in a Rockhampton (Australia) newspaper ..

 

"Trotting and Motorcycle sports" at the showground (Sept 22nd) Rockhampton agricultural society........... also

 

"Motorcycle sports" at the Showground (August).. Central Queensland Championship, the year 1919

Edited November 7, 2011 by Nigel

[olddon]

This is far away from Maitland December 1923 but it's pertinent to the debate. I have just visited on oldtimespeedway groups its magazines section and under Cyril May Heritage there's an article about the first High Beech meeting by Cyril. He writes about the sport's arrival in the UK and a photo shows Cyril with a poster advertising the first British meeting at High Beech on February 19 1928 at 10am. The poster, believed then to be the only one in existence, reads:

Dirt Track Racing

King's Oak Speedway

February 19 10am.

This article appeared in 'Speedway Star' on February 18 1978 on page 22.

So was the meeting dirt track or was it speedway?

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

Edited November 10, 2011 by olddon

[norbold]

It's a good point, olddon. I think that in the early days the two names were used interchangeably though it is probable that the term dirt track applied to the actual sport, while speedway applied to the venue itself, as it seems to be in the case you quote and was certainly the case in Australia from about mid 1924 onwards. It would seem that in this country at least the term speedway became synonymous with the sport itself when Speedway News, under A J Hunting, became established in May 1928.